Twins 3, Red Sox 9: Another Gut Punch Has Twins On Ropes

[Riverbrian]

13 minutes ago, Peter said:

Need to finish season strong!!!! 4-2 at very worst which I think will be enough to eek out playoffs. Don’t want to hear vikings talk or can’t wait for wolves season 💩love both teams along with wild but this is TWINS chat room NOT Vikings/twolves/wild chat!!! Day off comes at best time-we ALL need to support our twins this week/watch every game and get them in playoffs!!!

6 games to go. 

I've looked around the room and I'm choosing to hang out with you. 

 

[JD-TWINS]

10 hours ago, jkcarew said:

Rocco so terrified of losing the game in the 5th inning…that he lost the game in the 5th inning.

The horrible offense has turned Rocco from a guy who makes questionable bullpen moves into one that makes delirious bullpen moves.

Players gotta play and get outs…….each guy. He could pitch you or me & and if they can’t score it doesn’t really matter. The run totals were 17-4 on the day………..the continual lack of any offensive punch is the issue. If they ever have a lead after the 5th/6th I’m confident that the appropriate guys that are available will be in the game. 

[Dave Borton]

10 hours ago, 1985Fan said:

<Twins> pile up stats and wins against the sub .500 teams and when they play a team with decent or good pitching, the hitters don’t know what to do. . .

AL Central - record % of wins against teams greater than .500

Cleve is at .519
Tigers .490
KC .460
Twins .411

[DJL44]

10 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I would like someone to defend turning your season over to Irwin, in the 5th.

I wouldn't turn it over to Irvin, Blewett, Tonkin, Thielbar or Varland - whoops, that's everyone Rocco had available to choose from in the 5th inning. 

[JD-TWINS]

5 minutes ago, Dave Borton said:

AL Central - record % of wins against teams greater than .500

Cleve is at .519
Tigers .490
KC .460
Twins .411

Cannot disagree with facts!

Are they that bad consistently on offense or are they just completely absent of any clutch gene? They seem helpless v. everybody now!

Hitters with OPS+ over 100 in normal line-up:

Orioles - 9 guys

Detroit - 4 guys (plus one relative newcomer)

Kansas City - 4 guys

Yankees - 4 guys

Twins - 9 guys

What’s up, other than injuries?……..injuries certainly are a significant piece…..few care!

[Peter]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

6 games to go. 

I've looked around the room and I'm choosing to hang out with you. 

 

Twins fans need to stick together!!  Much appreciated 

[Dave Borton]

10 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

 

What’s up, other than injuries?……..injuries certainly are a significant piece…..few care!

While injuries have impacted the Twins, it is a shallow argument for two reasons.

1. Everyone has injuries. The Tigers have been decimated but instead of folding, they are playing with youthful spirit; with heart and creative and inspired managing by Hinch.

2. Depth. How well has minor league development been achieved? How well have you scouted for HS/college talent? How ready are you for "next man up?"

[USAFChief]

54 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I wouldn't turn it over to Irvin, Blewett, Tonkin, Thielbar or Varland - whoops, that's everyone Rocco had available to choose from in the 5th inning. 

He had the entire bullpen available except Headrick and possibly Blewitt.

Saturday was a rainout so the entire pen had a day off, with a scheduled day off on Monday. Only Headrick and Blewett (7 pitches) threw in game 1.

 

[LambchoP]

I'm basically already looking towards next year, which will probably be another rough one. Watching Festa and Mathews development should be fun though. They both have the stuff and rack up lots of K's. Just need to tighten up their command and learn to be more efficient. Only pitching 3 or 4 innings with 100 pitches is not going to cut it in the big leagues. Except with this team :(

[Maybe Next Year]

13 hours ago, twins_89 said:

It's tough to win enough to make the playoffs when you have 3 rookie starters who only go 4-5 innings followed by a shaky bullpen.

They only go 4-5 innings because of a manager that has no business being a manager.

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

 If they ever have a lead after the 5th/6th I’m confident that the appropriate guys that are available will be in the game. 

You don't actually watch the games, do you?

The Twins led 2-0 (with 1 on, 2 out) in the 5th when Rocco summoned Irvin.

[DJL44]

1 minute ago, USAFChief said:

He had the entire bullpen available except Headrick and possibly Blewitt.

Saturday was a rainout so the entire pen had a day off, with a scheduled day off on Monday. Only Headrick and Blewett (7 pitches) threw in game 1.

So, who exactly is the magic pitcher the Twins had available who would have saved that game? Do you go to Jax or Duran in the 5th inning and hope they can pitch 2-3 innings each? Do you go with Sands - oops, he gave up 3 runs and recorded one out in that same game.

Baldelli had the entire bullpen available, but it only has 2 good pitchers in it and that isn't enough to cover 5 innings.

[saviking]

14 hours ago, adjacent said:

It is not on the ropes. It is down and the ref count is at 8

We only have three solid relievers and a bunch of fillers. We better not make the playoffs because we aren't equipped to win, which is such a shame because our starters are really good. We never should have pulled Mathews on Sunday. That was over-managing.

[USAFChief]

Just now, DJL44 said:

So, who exactly is the magic pitcher the Twins had available who would have saved that game? Do you go to Jax or Duran in the 5th inning and hope they can pitch 2-3 innings each? Do you go with Sands - oops, he gave up 3 runs and recorded one out in that same game.

Baldelli had the entire bullpen available, but it only has 2 good pitchers in it and that isn't enough to cover 5 innings.

-Leave in Matthews for one more hitter.

-Sands, who has been great all year.

-Varland, the secret weapon.

-Thielbar, who has been the guy you've given this job to all year, for some reason. 

--But not the waiver wire pickup. And CERTAINLY not for another inning so he can hand a **** sandwich to Sands.

 

Honestly, is there NOTHING a manager can be held responsible for?

 

-

 

 

[1985Fan]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

I wouldn't turn it over to Irvin, Blewett, Tonkin, Thielbar or Varland - whoops, that's everyone Rocco had available to choose from in the 5th inning. 

Varland pitched 1.1 shut out innings to hold the tie in late innings on Friday. Blewett followed with a shut-down inning to get the win. Rocco doesn’t go to guys that aren’t on his pre-printed spreadsheet. He needs to defend the decision to go to Irwin when other arms were available. He won’t have to because the local beat guys don’t ask tough questions. Even worse, he sent Irwin out for the next inning, which added to the carnage. 
Rocco and the hitting coach are to blame for every hitter on the team going into a slump at the same time. What are they doing to prep for games during BP? Add in his BP mismanagement and all the other questionable in game decisions and you have a complete team collapse. 

[AKTwinsFan]

They just need to take everything that Baldelli and Popkins are trying to coach them, but do the opposite. I think they'll be okay and probably get back on track. 

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, Dave Borton said:

While injuries have impacted the Twins, it is a shallow argument for two reasons.

1. Everyone has injuries. The Tigers have been decimated but instead of folding, they are playing with youthful spirit; with heart and creative and inspired managing by Hinch.

2. Depth. How well has minor league development been achieved? How well have you scouted for HS/college talent? How ready are you for "next man up?"

There’s no argument from me regarding injury other than the reality that Paddack & Ryan are out & have been …….. Correa & Buxton, neither will play 100 games. Obviously, deeper than those 4 guys.

Tigers, decimated? I’m not a Tiger’s deep follower but Ibanez getting hurt helped make a tough $$ decision - which was to get him out of the way. Carpenter has been nicked. Couple young contributing pitchers. Other guys seem to be on periphery of their organization, IMO. Maybe I’m uninformed?

They traded 4 guys or so that would lead one to think they wouldn’t vault forward but to their credit, they have!

Paquantino gets hurt for Royals and that’s their excuse per national experts - Correa was 3rd in BA in the League with a 3.6 WAR on July 12th & then he was out 2 months. Buxton was having his best offensive season (outside of HR total) and he missed over a month in his latest IL stint………….your point, nobody cares & it isn’t changing anything, complaining. Gotta get it together.

[DJL44]

44 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

-Leave in Matthews for one more hitter.

-Sands, who has been great all year.

-Varland, the secret weapon.

-Thielbar, who has been the guy you've given this job to all year, for some reason. 

--But not the waiver wire pickup. And CERTAINLY not for another inning so he can hand a **** sandwich to Sands.

Honestly, is there NOTHING a manager can be held responsible for?

Matthews - the rookie who was struggling

Sands - the pitcher who was terrible in that exact same game and was probably penciled in for the 7th inning.

Varland - the young pitcher who has been bad all season

Thielbar - the old pitcher who has been bad all season

There's nothing Baldelli can't be second-guessed on. I think he was the one handed a **** sandwich with the current bullpen.

[JD-TWINS]

48 minutes ago, 1985Fan said:

Varland pitched 1.1 shut out innings to hold the tie in late innings on Friday. Blewett followed with a shut-down inning to get the win. Rocco doesn’t go to guys that aren’t on his pre-printed spreadsheet. He needs to defend the decision to go to Irwin when other arms were available. He won’t have to because the local beat guys don’t ask tough questions. Even worse, he sent Irwin out for the next inning, which added to the carnage. 
Rocco and the hitting coach are to blame for every hitter on the team going into a slump at the same time. What are they doing to prep for games during BP? Add in his BP mismanagement and all the other questionable in game decisions and you have a complete team collapse. 

“Rocco & hitting coach are to blame for every hitter going into a slump at the same time”………………how much effect do you think coaches have on athletic ability and player’s individual success? Obviously, waaaay tooo much.

If coaching determined outcomes anyone could be a great hitter with coaching and anyone that was once successful could then suck with coaching. Seem Logical?

Jeffers has sucked for months…….Lee looks like a high school kid……..Lewis has come back to earth and his plate discipline looks like a 2nd year player……..how about Miranda over past 3 weeks? I got it, the coaches put all their focus on Kyle Farmer trying to resurrect his year - that’s why he’s heated up!

PLAYERS have to perform. Pretty sure, to a man they would all tell anyone the same thing. Plate discipline is “discussed with coaches” but the players need to execute the plans - that’s it, completely on their backs whether they succeed or not.

I guess we just disagree.

 

[Dave Borton]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

Tigers, decimated?

Mize and Olson (pitchers)both just started again after 60 day and prolonged injuries. White and Faedo (Ps) done for the year. Baez is out for remainder of season. Tigers have gone with BP TWO beginners from BP on several games. Colt Keith just returned to lineup, albeit as DH.

The young Mudhens have been busy, not laying eggs except on scoreboard.

 

[1985Fan]

48 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

“Rocco & hitting coach are to blame for every hitter going into a slump at the same time”………………how much effect do you think coaches have on athletic ability and player’s individual success? Obviously, waaaay tooo much.

If coaching determined outcomes anyone could be a great hitter with coaching and anyone that was once successful could then suck with coaching. Seem Logical?

Jeffers has sucked for months…….Lee looks like a high school kid……..Lewis has come back to earth and his plate discipline looks like a 2nd year player……..how about Miranda over past 3 weeks? I got it, the coaches put all their focus on Kyle Farmer trying to resurrect his year - that’s why he’s heated up!

PLAYERS have to perform. Pretty sure, to a man they would all tell anyone the same thing. Plate discipline is “discussed with coaches” but the players need to execute the plans - that’s it, completely on their backs whether they succeed or not.

I guess we just disagree.

 

I agree we disagree. If it was one or two players in a slump, those are exceptions. When it’s the entire team with only one or two exceptions, that’s on the manager and hitting coaches. What is their job? To get the most out of the players. Pitching coach is doing his job. This is not the first time the entire team is in a complete hitting funk. This is a repeat of last season and at times, this season. Manager has ultimate responsibility for coaching staff and players. That’s his job. 

[bean5302]

3 hours ago, Dave Borton said:

While injuries have impacted the Twins, it is a shallow argument for two reasons.

1. Everyone has injuries. The Tigers have been decimated but instead of folding, they are playing with youthful spirit; with heart and creative and inspired managing by Hinch.

2. Depth. How well has minor league development been achieved? How well have you scouted for HS/college talent? How ready are you for "next man up?"

The Tigers benched Javy Baez, a veteran (even high priced!). Something Baldelli and Falvey would never allow.

The Tigers have been rebuilding for literally a decade and it looks like it's coming together for them, and that's how they got their depth and young talent. They've also opened up the wallet and started to spend. Detroit is a bigger market than the Twins enjoy, and I expect the Tigers' payroll to max out in the $180MM range, which they will keep pushing so long as their window is open, unlike the Pohlads.

The AL Central is no longer a cake walk and the Twins are in disarray. Might be a tough few years ahead as our window looks to be closing as fast as it opened.

[bean5302]

When it comes to Irvin... he's a starter, not  a reliever and his SP splits are better than his RP splits. The Red Sox have obviously seen him a lot so I'm not sure he was the right call, especially given his splits as a RP against a team who knows him well. Sands allowed 3ER after Irvin so the Twins would have lost there as well if we're going with the direct view of woulda coulda shoulda.

Gotta score more than 3 runs if you want to win ballgames.

[1985Fan]

One point to consider with the current pitching staff is that short starts force 4-5 guys out of the BP to be near perfect. That’s not going to happen with this bullpen. Other than Cleveland’s BP, it’s not realistic to expect perfection every night. 
This means that the SP needs to go longer than 4 innings to reduce the number of arms needed each game. Most everyone can see that except Rocco. The argument that you can’t trust the young starters to go more innings is Mott when you look at the BP results lately.

Maybe if Rocco leaves Matthews in for one more out, he gets the job done and damage avoided. 
 

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Matthews - the rookie who was struggling

Sands - the pitcher who was terrible in that exact same game and was probably penciled in for the 7th inning.

Varland - the young pitcher who has been bad all season

Thielbar - the old pitcher who has been bad all season

There's nothing Baldelli can't be second-guessed on. I think he was the one handed a **** sandwich with the current bullpen.

So the manager had no impact on the game?

The results were written in stone before the first pitch was thrown?

There was no possible path to victory, even with a 2 run lead bottom 5?

Absolutely nothing could have been done differently?

 

 

[jkcarew]

15 hours ago, 1985Fan said:

…I’m a (idiot) fan and I’ve been watching and cheering them on all year, so a few more games can’t be much worse. 

That’s the spirit!! 😅

[DJL44]

23 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

So the manager had no impact on the game?

The results were written in stone before the first pitch was thrown?

There was no possible path to victory, even with a 2 run lead bottom 5?

Absolutely nothing could have been done differently?

The manager's impact is "hope your reliever gets lucky". You can't make chicken salad out of this bullpen. Honestly, I'm surprised that Zebby pitched as well has he did.

[bean5302]

29 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

The manager's impact is "hope your reliever gets lucky". You can't make chicken salad out of this bullpen. Honestly, I'm surprised that Zebby pitched as well has he did.

Is the bullpen the way it is because of the front office or because of Baldelli or a combo? I remember earlier this year when Funderburk was great in 1 inning outings, but Baldelli was insistent on putting him out there for multiple innings where he would struggle. Then you have the front office playing musical chairs with Alcala. Questions about Duran's pitch selection coming from the dugout instead of the pitcher/catcher. Questions about how often Baldelli would pitch guys over and over and over again. Questions about when Baldelli would turn to the bullpen based on a spreadsheet.

I don't know as I would have gone to Irvin there for multiple reasons, but I don't care that much since the offense didn't score more than 3 runs. 3 runs probably gives the team like a 35% winning percentage.

[JD-TWINS]

5 hours ago, USAFChief said:

-Leave in Matthews for one more hitter.

-Sands, who has been great all year.

-Varland, the secret weapon.

-Thielbar, who has been the guy you've given this job to all year, for some reason. 

--But not the waiver wire pickup. And CERTAINLY not for another inning so he can hand a **** sandwich to Sands.

 

Honestly, is there NOTHING a manager can be held responsible for?

 

-

 

 

…….what’s the comment if “Matthews is left in” and he gives up a double or HR……then Baldelli is an idiot because he didn’t act.

Irvin pitched fine in at least two outings I recall since picking him up.

If Sands does come in during the 5th and folds as he eventually would - then whose fault is his failure?

Is there NOTHING a player is responsible for?

[GNess]

4 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

“Rocco & hitting coach are to blame for every hitter going into a slump at the same time”………………how much effect do you think coaches have on athletic ability and player’s individual success? Obviously, waaaay tooo much.

If coaching determined outcomes anyone could be a great hitter with coaching and anyone that was once successful could then suck with coaching. Seem Logical?

Jeffers has sucked for months…….Lee looks like a high school kid……..Lewis has come back to earth and his plate discipline looks like a 2nd year player……..how about Miranda over past 3 weeks? I got it, the coaches put all their focus on Kyle Farmer trying to resurrect his year - that’s why he’s heated up!

PLAYERS have to perform. Pretty sure, to a man they would all tell anyone the same thing. Plate discipline is “discussed with coaches” but the players need to execute the plans - that’s it, completely on their backs whether they succeed or not.

I guess we just disagree.

 

As the leader of the team the manager bears primary responsibility for the eventual outcomes. That seems to be the way sports work at a basic level - fair or not.