Royals 4, Twins 2: Bailey Ober's Brilliant Start Wasted by Bullpen Blow-Up

[LambchoP]

Another loss because of Rocco. Pulling Ober was ideotic. Dude was only at like 82 pitches, sat down 15 in a row and pitching a one hitter! On top of that, he decides to bring in Duran in the 8th? Even the casual fans could tell you, Duran has been lights out in save situations, but non saves like yesterday he's been bad. Sure, the hitting has been pathetic and we won't win many games only scoring two runs. But this win was attainable and dumb management blew it. Especially against KC, especially at this point in the year where every win counts is just inexcusable. Putting Farmer at first base replacing Santana was also a laughable idea.

[mnfireman]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

I would really hope decisions weren’t made due to what happened a year ago in one game 

Agreed, but players remember. Competitors want redemption.

[1985Fan]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Come on. MLB is different now. There's no team that's letting a guy go 10 innings in game 7 now. 0. None. Not one. Oh, and Matt Harvey was allowed to pitch the 9th inning of a shutout in game 5 in 2015. The manager was clearly going to take him out, but Harvey talked his way into going out for the 9th. Manager "followed his gut" and Harvey imploded and the Mets lost the game and the series. 1991 was great. Best game 7 in the history of sports. But can we please stop pointing to that game like it's something that should be expected or something any team in baseball would do in 2024? It's not. And they don't always work out so well.

I was pointing to the dramatic change in mentality of managers and pitchers in today’s game. It’s what leads us to watching the insanity of last nights game and Rocco feeling like his decision to pull Ober was justified by the current orthodoxy. 
And yes, we should expect managers to have a brain, instead of auto-pilot reactions, and leave a pitcher go until the situation actually calls for a pitching change. We may not see a 10-inning complete game shut-out, but we shouldn’t have to watch the current stupidity and be happy about it because that’s what the norm is. 

[mrcharlie]

14 hours ago, AKTwinsFan said:

Baldelli makes a LOT of questionable pitching changes, usually leading to a LOSS. Popkins must be teaching them to chase in the other batting box and let center cut fastballs go. Bad coaching all around!

Agree.  Rocco relies on his coaching staff very much for the small and important elements.  Lately the Twins have looked weak on defense and the base running is poor.  These are issues the staff can and should address.  And yes, the at bats we give away every game is tough to watch.

[bean5302]

Kyle Farmer has played 4 complete games at 1B in his entire MLB career, all of them in 2019. He's not a first baseman. The ball should have been caught, but even if it wasn't, no way that ball should have gotten past him from the view I saw.

Miranda hasn't played much 1B this year, but he's got a dozen or so games there this year. He couldn't move to 1B because he was a DH so the pitcher would have to bat, and that could have meant pulling Ober after 6 innings for a pinch hitter if the Twins got a couple base runners in the top of the 7th.

Julien has a handful of games at 1B in AAA this year, but he wasn't available to move to 1B because Baldelli pulled him for Castro who struck out for Julien. When you don't have any available 1B depth on the roster so why do you pinch hit?

Baldelli's call to replace Ober makes no sense to me. His average velocity wasn't really falling off with his slowest fastballs coming in the 3rd and 5th innings. He was only at 84 pitches and he was totally in control of the Royals' lineup. When you have a pitcher dominating like that, you do not pull them unless there is an injury concern (velocity dropping or exceeding pitch count limit where you expect they should be tired). Relying on what has been a very shaky bullpen in a close game against a divisional rival in a playoff chase vs. a pitcher who is absolutely cruising? Nonsense.

[D.C Twins]

14 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

 

TD Therapy Post

[Prince Phillip]

Payoffs are in jeopardy. The team is on fumes. We badly need a spark. Right now I’d take Buxton and/or Correa at 85% just to get some abs in clutch spots. The hitting has been awful.

[Prince Phillip]

Payoffs are in jeopardy. The team is on fumes. We badly need a spark. Right now I’d take Buxton and/or Correa at 85% just to get some abs in clutch spots. The hitting has been awful.

[Prince Phillip]

Payoffs are in jeopardy. The team is on fumes. We badly need a spark. Right now I’d take Buxton and/or Correa at 85% just to get some abs in clutch spots. The hitting has been awful.

[Prince Phillip]

Payoffs are in jeopardy. The team is on fumes. We badly need a spark. Right now I’d take Buxton and/or Correa at 85% just to get some abs in clutch spots. The hitting has been awful.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, 1985Fan said:

I was pointing to the dramatic change in mentality of managers and pitchers in today’s game. It’s what leads us to watching the insanity of last nights game and Rocco feeling like his decision to pull Ober was justified by the current orthodoxy. 
And yes, we should expect managers to have a brain, instead of auto-pilot reactions, and leave a pitcher go until the situation actually calls for a pitching change. We may not see a 10-inning complete game shut-out, but we shouldn’t have to watch the current stupidity and be happy about it because that’s what the norm is. 

I didn't like the move, but he turned the game over to his 2 shut down arms. Let's keep things in perspective. It's certainly justifiable that many of us wanted to see Ober keep going, but if turning the ball over to Duran and Jax with a 2 run lead in the 8th is "stupidity" I don't know what you, or anyone, think managers should be doing.

Again, I didn't like the move, but Duran and Jax are two of the best relievers in baseball. Let's not act like Rocco did something utterly ridiculous.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I'm not going to defend nor assail Rocco. 

This morning when looking the Twins results over. 

This was my only question. 

Why Duran in the 8th to face 6, 7 and 8 in the order. 

Actually one more question. How quickly did Jax get up and warmed. 

Out, Single, HBP Single and Duran is out? 

When would you even start thinking about pulling Duran.

After the 1st out? No

After the Fermin Single? No

After the HBP.? Maybe but probably No

After the Isbel Single... Most likely you start thinking about getting someone warmed up at this point. But for some reason Jax was already ready to go. J

My Guess... Rocco already wanted Jax over Duran to face the top of the order and that's why Duran in the 8th. 

Just some guessing from someone who didn't watch the game because I was watching North Dakota come from behind to beat Montana. 

 

 

I agree that the most likely thought process was wanting Jax for the top of the lineup. I don't like that thought process at all. If you're doubting Duran against any part of that lineup (Witt alone shouldn't change things) this bullpen is doomed.

[Riverbrian]

25 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I agree that the most likely thought process was wanting Jax for the top of the lineup. I don't like that thought process at all. If you're doubting Duran against any part of that lineup (Witt alone shouldn't change things) this bullpen is doomed.

Maybe the Royals don't like sliders? Dunno. I'm too lazy to research on this Sunday. 

Friday night... I couldn't figure out why Rocco all of sudden loaded up on left handed hitters against Ragans. 

Later I looked it up and found out that Ragans has been tougher on right handers. 

 

 

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, LambchoP said:

Putting Farmer at first base replacing Santana was also a laughable idea.

Santana came out due to illness/injury. Did you want Helman there instead? Julien?

[Linus]

Pulling Ober was a mistake but there were two fielding miscues that were huge in that inning. On KCs first run the runner broke back and wasn’t going to score until the cutoff was set up to third. Once the third base coach saw that he waved the runner home. Secondly Royce simply has to go get that grounder - we actually would want the runner to get in the way as it would be interference and the runner would be out. Royce has obviously not been coached properly on that situation. Royce could have thrown the runner out or got the interference call. Lee made it worse by making the ill advised throw. Another game lost to poor fundamentals- one of (too) many this year. 

[USAFChief]

5 minutes ago, Linus said:

Pulling Ober was a mistake but there were two fielding miscues that were huge in that inning. On KCs first run the runner broke back and wasn’t going to score until the cutoff was set up to third. Once the third base coach saw that he waved the runner home. Secondly Royce simply has to go get that grounder - we actually would want the runner to get in the way as it would be interference and the runner would be out. Royce has obviously not been coached properly on that situation. Royce could have thrown the runner out or got the interference call. Lee made it worse by making the ill advised throw. Another game lost to poor fundamentals- one of (too) many this year. 

This organization doesn't pay much more than lip service to fundamentals. And that's not just a glib one-off. It's a statement of fact.

Playing the game properly isn't considered an important element towards winning. It's not taught, it's not practiced, and it's not a factor in playing time. 

 

[Linus]

7 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

This organization doesn't pay much more than lip service to fundamentals. And that's not just a glib one-off. It's a statement of fact.

Playing the game properly isn't considered an important element towards winning. It's not taught, it's not practiced, and it's not a factor in playing time. 

 

Spot on. Here is what I don’t get - why do you spend a gazillion dollars on technology etc for minor league development but dont coach basic fielding and baserunning fundamentals that really only cost time. And you are correct it doesn’t seem to cause any heartburn in the dugout and it doesn’t get better. 

[Rufus]

A bird on the mound is worth two in the pen 

[cheeseheadgophfan]

8 hours ago, DJL44 said:

They may have been able to get the 8th inning out of Ober but he wasn't going to pitch the 9th with >95 pitches on the night.

He's thrown 106 pitches in a game this year.  Very possible to go 2 more innings in 23 pitches the way he was dealing.....

[cheeseheadgophfan]

1 hour ago, Linus said:

Pulling Ober was a mistake but there were two fielding miscues that were huge in that inning. On KCs first run the runner broke back and wasn’t going to score until the cutoff was set up to third. Once the third base coach saw that he waved the runner home. Secondly Royce simply has to go get that grounder - we actually would want the runner to get in the way as it would be interference and the runner would be out. Royce has obviously not been coached properly on that situation. Royce could have thrown the runner out or got the interference call. Lee made it worse by making the ill advised throw. Another game lost to poor fundamentals- one of (too) many this year. 

IMO....this was still runners interference......right?  There doesn't need to be contact for the call to be made.  Royce was going after the ball and was hindered by the runner.  Should he have run into the runner?  Yes, but I still think interference should have been called.  No?

[Linus]

1 hour ago, cheeseheadgophfan said:

IMO....this was still runners interference......right?  There doesn't need to be contact for the call to be made.  Royce was going after the ball and was hindered by the runner.  Should he have run into the runner?  Yes, but I still think interference should have been called.  No?

It’s a judgment call so I guess not. My point is that Royce didn’t know what to do and backed off which is what the ump based his call on. I specifically remember in Legion ball with amateur coaches running drills for all the infielders sending runners at us as we were fielding the ball so we would go to the ball without flinching. They literally told us to get bumped if we could. There are so many examples of basic plays they do not execute. How can you get to the bigs and not know this stuff?

[h2oface]

11 hours ago, cmoss84 said:

Miller was awesome. But an entirely different role...and I agree with you...one that we need to fill. I guess Jax is ours. 

We were discussing the mentality to be able to not have set roles. Others tried to emulate what Miller achieved for a couple years, but that has passed by the wayside. Maybe different innings, but Miller was unique, so of course it was an entirely different role.

[h2oface]

11 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Come on. MLB is different now. There's no team that's letting a guy go 10 innings in game 7 now. 0. None. Not one. Oh, and Matt Harvey was allowed to pitch the 9th inning of a shutout in game 5 in 2015. The manager was clearly going to take him out, but Harvey talked his way into going out for the 9th. Manager "followed his gut" and Harvey imploded and the Mets lost the game and the series. 1991 was great. Best game 7 in the history of sports. But can we please stop pointing to that game like it's something that should be expected or something any team in baseball would do in 2024? It's not. And they don't always work out so well.

Ha. Probably right. But no guts no glory. No team none not one was going to let a guy go 10 innings in a game seven then, either. I don't know if it has ever happened but that one time, in a game 7 especially. But all went out the book because Kelly read the room and the pitcher, and had the guts to do it. No reason to not refer to it like it can never happen, because it did. Unlikely, but not unreasonable at all to mention, and dream.