The Dodgers should be kicked out of baseball

[DJL44]

5 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

The Texas Rangers won the World Series in 2023.

And the Diamondbacks were awful very recently

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, SteveLV said:

The Dodgers are +400 to win the 2024 WS.  The A's are +30,000 .

Just noodle on that a bit.  The Dodgers are, according to same very smart people in Vegas, 75 times more likely to win the WS than the A's.

You will NEVER see those kinds of odds to win the Super Bowl 6 months before the season in the NFL. And the NFL actually has 2 more teams than MLB.

The NFL rarely has teams that are actively trying to lose like the Athletics. I'm not sure that's really a parity issue. It's more of how the rewards are structured. In the NFL teams have to try to win to sell out the stadium. In MLB the teams get so much shared revenue that the easy path to profits is minimizing payroll as much as possible. I don't think that gets solved without changing the incentives. You could force a minimum payroll and the Athletics would become the dumping ground for overpaid veterans as teams pay them to take on their bad contracts. You would see trades involving players like Stephen Strasburg to circumvent the intent of the rule.

The NFL has a salary cap of $225M and a floor of $200M. They also have an $750k minimum salary and 53 players on the roster. To make MLB equivalent they would have to make the minimum salary $1.5M just due to the smaller roster size. 

In all it looks like MLB players are getting a much better deal. The NFL has revenue of $18.5B and the players get $4.75B for 26%. MLB has $10.5B in revenue has and the players are getting $3.8B in salary or 36%. This is evidence that MLB has a much stronger union than the NFL. If the NFLPA did as well representing their members every player would get a 40% raise. Instead they have a salary cap structure that is funneling billions to the owners as the players risk injuries that can cripple them for life.

[ChermesZ]

12 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

So workers who generate all that money shouldn't get it?

They generate some of the money, however, some of it is extorted from the public.  Public money for a stadium is terrible - especially when ticket prices increased 300% for that said stadium.

 

teams should be publicly owned.  
 

I would love to see graphs showing baseball salary increase with common person wages increases.

 

 

[LanceJS]

I always ask this…if a cap and floor will always ensure competitive balance, please explain how the NBA has teams that go either 67-15 or 15-67 in every season. Not the same teams all the time, but there are always those. If there’s such balance, how can the Detroit Pistons lose 25 straight games?

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, ChermesZ said:

They generate some of the money, however, some of it is extorted from the public.  Public money for a stadium is terrible - especially when ticket prices increased 300% for that said stadium.

 

teams should be publicly owned.  
 

I would love to see graphs showing baseball salary increase with common person wages increases.

CBA would change its meaning from Collective Bargaining Agreement to Communist Baseball Association. Publicly owned teams would mean extorting MORE money from the public, not less.

You're really not going to like the graph of CEO pay versus wage earners.

[ChermesZ]

36 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

CBA would change its meaning from Collective Bargaining Agreement to Communist Baseball Association. Publicly owned teams would mean extorting MORE money from the public, not less.

You're really not going to like the graph of CEO pay versus wage earners.

I see the CEO play scale as wrong, same as players, ticket price, and team value.  

 

has Green Bay extorted the public?  Or are we talking about government institutions since there isn’t really any proof of that concept.

 

isnt communism parity?  That’s my beef, a league that scream parity has no interest in parity.  Otherwise it wouldn’t complain about low tv interest after the World Series.

 

i do believe in free market, however, I want to call a wolf a wolf in this situation,  no matter the situation - especially when the owners have extorted the public for money already.  

[DJL44]

4 minutes ago, ChermesZ said:

has Green Bay extorted the public?  Or are we talking about government institutions since there isn’t really any proof of that concept.

Absolutely

Lambeau Field sales tax still pays dividends for Packers, community 20 years later (greenbaypressgazette.com)

Quote

The tax, which was retired in September 2015, provided $309.5 million to the Green Bay-Brown County Professional Football Stadium District, an average of $20.6 million per year.

 

[USAFChief]

The Dodgers buying pennants is ABSOLUTELY terrible for MLB. Awful. 

This is one major thing (among others) killing baseball. And it won't be fixed until MLB grows some balls, breaks the MLBPA (like the NFL did) and mandates a system whereby teams can't win by spending more.

Win by spending better. Developing better. Trading better. Drafting better.

Not by a few teams massively cheating the system. 

[terrydactyls]

21 hours ago, DJL44 said:

The alternative is the money goes to multibillion dollar media companies and the billionaire owners of MLB. I'd rather the money goes to the players. At least they have an elite skill.

The entertainment industry makes money by capturing your attention and selling it to advertisers. You are the real product here.

Actually, the alternative could possibly be lower ticket prices, a reduced parking fee, and affordable concessions.

[ChermesZ]

12 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Absolutely

Lambeau Field sales tax still pays dividends for Packers, community 20 years later (greenbaypressgazette.com)

 

Maybe our definition of extort is different.  I see quotes about not being competitive,  but no threats of pulling up the team and leaving.  I am sure it could create some problems, but leaving an entire city without a major sports team I see as a problem that has already happened.

i think the whole industry of entertainment is out of whack with the average person.  Yes, owners have created a problem, but I think players are part of the problem as well.  I think this symbiosis of greed has only one ending point….failure and collapse.  
 

I don’t think either side cares about the fans, only what they can get.

[Vanimal46]

Even in a perfect world with balanced revenue sharing, there will still be the element of bad ownership. There’s a reason why the Cleveland Browns have had 3 competitive seasons in the 20+ years they’ve been back as an expansion franchise. There’s a reason why the New York Jets lose 10+ games infinitely more often than win 10+ games. 

[wabene]

4 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

Actually, the alternative could possibly be lower ticket prices, a reduced parking fee, and affordable concessions.

This is the truth. 

[SteveLV]

Exactly, Vanimal. You are still going to have good and bad teams.  But then the differences will be due to managers, management, scouting, drafting and some luck, not who is the richest owner willing to buy teams.

I greatly prefer the former.

[tony&rodney]

This discussion is interesting but displays a few too many unfounded concerns as well as some worrying thoughts.  

The Dodgers have not been ceded the pennant any more than the San Diego Padres were in 2023.

MLB is set up pretty much the way the owners want it to work. The MLBPA had to work hard to organize and get the CBA that is in existence today. 

A reference was dropped to CEO pay and there are many various numbers to cite, one recent one was 254 times the average worker pay. Nobody can dispute that there exists extreme excess of material goods as well as income disparity in the country. The myths of free market and supply demand do not hold up at all, much less the concept of the self made person who succeeded without the help of anyone else as if there is some type of magical vacuum. The public support for stadiums has been a practice since long before the Roman Colosseum. Corporations have benefitted from this same largesse throughout our country's history, from before the railroads to oil companies today and everything in between.  Our civilization makes collective choices. Some we agree with, others we disagree with, and still others we pretend don't exist or ignore. Some like our system of massive freeways because cars allow for more independence. We have an issue with mental health and homelessness which is largely ignored. There are a host of issues that are all a part of our collective choice as a country and yet it still remains a fair place to live and where many of us were born and own property.

MLB is doing relatively well and the players are also doing relatively well as are all of the owners. The Twins and a number of other teams have entered an era where new media monies need to be sourced. This issue has been brewing for a while and any of the teams could have anticipated this in their planning. The large market teams have always had a clear advantage but teams like St. Louis still manage despite their situation. Baseball will make changes when the specter of financial loss or more accurately less gain looks like a thing to the owners. A massive strike where the owners attempt to break the union will not occur because of the threat of losing their anti-trust exemption and the fact that many billionaires would love to take over the teams. 

I'm excited for the 2024 season, the rookies who will make their mark, the Twins players who will all exceed their expectations, and the exciting AL Central Division race. I will also be keen to follow the minor league players via milb.com and in person. The Dodgers are not even close to a concern for me. In fact, I'm keen to see Yamamoto pitch. Let's all be happy.

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, terrydactyls said:

Actually, the alternative could possibly be lower ticket prices, a reduced parking fee, and affordable concessions.

Seeing how the NFL, NBA and NHL all have salary caps that restrict the players from earning what they would be worth in a free market and none of them have lower ticket prices, reduced parking fees or affordable concessions I'm going to have to say you're utterly and completely wrong.

[DJL44]

5 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

In fact, I'm keen to see Yamamoto pitch. Let's all be happy.

I am also thrilled that Yamamoto is joining MLB. In a salary cap constrained MLB he might have decided to stay in Japan. Ohtani might have decided that as well.

[Original_JB]

20 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

This discussion is interesting but displays a few too many unfounded concerns as well as some worrying thoughts.  

The Dodgers have not been ceded the pennant any more than the San Diego Padres were in 2023.

MLB is set up pretty much the way the owners want it to work. The MLBPA had to work hard to organize and get the CBA that is in existence today. 

A reference was dropped to CEO pay and there are many various numbers to cite, one recent one was 254 times the average worker pay. Nobody can dispute that there exists extreme excess of material goods as well as income disparity in the country. The myths of free market and supply demand do not hold up at all, much less the concept of the self made person who succeeded without the help of anyone else as if there is some type of magical vacuum. The public support for stadiums has been a practice since long before the Roman Colosseum. Corporations have benefitted from this same largesse throughout our country's history, from before the railroads to oil companies today and everything in between.  Our civilization makes collective choices. Some we agree with, others we disagree with, and still others we pretend don't exist or ignore. Some like our system of massive freeways because cars allow for more independence. We have an issue with mental health and homelessness which is largely ignored. There are a host of issues that are all a part of our collective choice as a country and yet it still remains a fair place to live and where many of us were born and own property.

MLB is doing relatively well and the players are also doing relatively well as are all of the owners. The Twins and a number of other teams have entered an era where new media monies need to be sourced. This issue has been brewing for a while and any of the teams could have anticipated this in their planning. The large market teams have always had a clear advantage but teams like St. Louis still manage despite their situation. Baseball will make changes when the specter of financial loss or more accurately less gain looks like a thing to the owners. A massive strike where the owners attempt to break the union will not occur because of the threat of losing their anti-trust exemption and the fact that many billionaires would love to take over the teams. 

I'm excited for the 2024 season, the rookies who will make their mark, the Twins players who will all exceed their expectations, and the exciting AL Central Division race. I will also be keen to follow the minor league players via milb.com and in person. The Dodgers are not even close to a concern for me. In fact, I'm keen to see Yamamoto pitch. Let's all be happy.

You may enjoy this article (in regards to disparity of wealth in general): https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-inequality-inevitable/

[terrydactyls]

32 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Seeing how the NFL, NBA and NHL all have salary caps that restrict the players from earning what they would be worth in a free market and none of them have lower ticket prices, reduced parking fees or affordable concessions I'm going to have to say you're utterly and completely wrong.

It is my opinion.  Opinions are NOT facts.  Therefore, I am not "wrong."  You just have a different opinion.

[Craig Arko]

I look forward to them having the same level of success as the Mets and the Angels.

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Original_JB said:

You may enjoy this article (in regards to disparity of wealth in general): https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-inequality-inevitable/

Great magazine with always interesting material - thank you. I did subscribe to it for years.

Thomas Piketty, a French economist, has a couple of tremendous books out. He writes on public economics and inequality, but has a positive take on a general improvement from 1750 -1980, but a flat line since. Baseball could be seen as a part of that work to a limited extent.

[SteveLV]

I don't want a strike.

I want a strong commissioner (or other leader) to get the sides together, convince the owners to open the books., negotiate a fair compensation share, negotiate a new structure that puts more money in the players' collective pockets but implements a salary floor and ceiling similar to the NFL so the teams are on equal financial footing.

It will never happen, but that is, ideally, what should be done.

No, the Dodgers are not guaranteed a WS.  But they are 4-1 odds favorites to do so.

Twins, which have a decent squad, are 30--1, same as the number of teams in the league.

[TopGunn#22]

There has ALWAYS been disparity in sports.  Especially in "Baseball."  Do any of you think the New York Yankees have won all those World Series Championships because they DIDN'T use their economic might?  Of course not!  They BOUGHT Babe Ruth from the Red Sox.  They basically STOLE Roger Maris from the Kansas City Athletics, who were really nothing more than a major league farm team for the Yanks.  

I don't like the present system either, but it's NOT going to change.  At least not radically.  The Players Union has drawn their line in the sand and the owners are never going to cross it, ever again.  Strikes are bad for business.  Most of us on here are probably 50+ years old.  We are the sad saps who will keep coming back to baseball no matter how many times they mess with us.  We grew up with the game.  We are hooked and that's never going to change.  Kneeling for the National Anthem didn't drive us away.  Unfairly taking the All Star Game from Atlanta didn't drive us away.  Different rules for the American and National Leagues for decades didn't drive us away.  Various strikes and work stoppages didn't drive us away.  Our generation will accept the game as it is no matter what, because we love baseball.  Love can be irrational, but love is capable of overlooking a lot of stuff.

But here's the mystery of "Baseball."  Take out the Covid season and the Dodgers haven't won a World Series since 1988.  All that Star Power hasn't led to even ONE World Series Championship outside of the Covid season.  The Yankees haven't won since 2009.  Last year we had the D-Backs and Rangers.  Despite certain team's ability to buy any player they want, "Baseball" just doesn't work that way.   

Vegas thinks the Dodgers will it all in 2024.  And they probably will.  But they didn't in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022, and 2023.  And those were some LOADED Dodger teams.  The games will be played, and at the end of 2024, about the same time we find out who the President of the United States will be, we'll have our World Series Champion.  Anybody wonder what the Vegas odds are for the Presidency???  I don't.  I'm not betting on that.

[tony&rodney]

57 minutes ago, TopGunn#22 said:

Anybody wonder what the Vegas odds are for the Presidency???  I don't.  I'm not betting on that.

Hopefully someone we have never have never heard of that is actually competent.