Game Thread: Twins (Keuchel) v Rays (Bradley), 9/13/23 @ 12:10 CT

[Cap'n Piranha]

I've been criticizing the Vazquez move BEFORE I realized that TB was able to counter with a righty (I had to hop on a meeting).  That is straight up managerial malpractice there.  This is why the Twins will do nothing in the postseason--they will be constantly outmaneuvered by opposing teams, which is horrifying given that analytics is supposedly the prime reason Rocco has the job.

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

Rocco is tough to take sometimes. WTF...

Take my manager…please!

[mrtwinsfan]

Just now, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

Rocco is tough to take sometimes. WTF...

And as we get closer to a playoff at home,  watch all the goofy line ups coming up,   He better tighten up the ship b4 the last 2 series ,   He is Scary crazy sometimes

[insagt1]

back in the day when pitchers weren't treated like china dolls, Duran would have been in there. Jax cannot be trusted at all. How many more of these games will it take? Tough loss and Twins sure had their chances. But Jax is NOT late inning material.

Darn darn darn

[Parfigliano]

4 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I think Rocco’s computer is a commodore 64

More like the guts from a Norden bombsight.  Its analog.

[mrtwinsfan]

1 minute ago, insagt1 said:

back in the day when pitchers weren't treated like china dolls, Duran would have been in there. Jax cannot be trusted at all. How many more of these games will it take? Tough loss and Twins sure had their chances. But Jax is NOT late inning material.

Darn darn darn

a late inning reliever who leads the TEAM in Losses ,  reminds me of RON DAVIS 10  

[insagt1]

So--O's have to sack up and beat the Cards. Giants need to topple the Guardians. No prisoners. And Twins better start looking seriously at their pen. Hard to believe that Pagan is going to be one of the decent ones. Jax absolutely needs to go to mop-up, if that.

[mrtwinsfan]

JAX  6-10  RECORD  4.22 ERA     gOTTA CHANGE OR WERE DONE

[Parfigliano]

3 minutes ago, insagt1 said:

So--O's have to sack up and beat the Cards. Giants need to topple the Guardians. No prisoners. And Twins better start looking seriously at their pen. Hard to believe that Pagan is going to be one of the decent ones. Jax absolutely needs to go to mop-up, if that.

Cle up 4-1 in 2nd

[Azviking101]

At this point I’m not too worried about individual losses. They’ve basically clinched and are locked into the 3rd seed. I do think it’s time to start giving guys like Correa, Julien some rest for the playoffs. 

Hopefully Varland continues looking good and Stewart can return because Jax has worked himself out of a setup spot. 

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

38 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Can’t hide all those average bullpen arms 🤷🏼

yep and how many bullpen arms would you need to remove them all?  Plus you did 5 innings of 1 run ball.  Actually pretty good.  The problem is you couldn't afford that 1 run. 

[mrtwinsfan]

w.t.f. did rocco think , his buddy Cash wasent gonna counter,   No other manager would ever even think of hitting Vasquez ,  for your leadoff hitter

[SwainZag]

I don't like the Vasquez move, but man lot of people piling on Jax.  I wouldn't have used Duran in that situation either. 

You knew that 4 runs wouldn't win this game when Kuechel left after 4 runs in 4 innings.  Twins batters didn't get a hit after Kepler's triple tied it in the 5th.  

[Parfigliano]

Somebody just straight up ask Rocco:  Vasquez PH in 9th.  Why?

[SwainZag]

9 minutes ago, insagt1 said:

So--O's have to sack up and beat the Cards. Giants need to topple the Guardians. No prisoners. And Twins better start looking seriously at their pen. Hard to believe that Pagan is going to be one of the decent ones. Jax absolutely needs to go to mop-up, if that.

The pen gave up 1 run on 3 hits, walked no one and struck out 5 in 5 innings.   Overall the pen was pretty damn good today. 

[mrtwinsfan]

No  one even asked Rocco about  the Vasquez move,   Chicken crap  reporters

[Guest]

If we can’t win a series like this at home how can you expect us to win in the playoffs? What’s crazy is none of us get paid a dime for our opinions but Rocco and management is going to retire LOADED all while making horrible decisions that we as fans can clearly see. This has to stop this front office and manager have to go. I do not want to the careers of lopez, Ryan, duran, Lewis, buxton, correa, julien, Walker Jenkins, brooks lee, and Matt Walner to turn into joe mauers career. This has to change and it’s not going to change with the current front office and management.

[Jocko87]

1 hour ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Again, you are ignoring the situation.  The runner does not touch the ball.  He does not touch the fielder.  He merely passes in front of the shortstop, blocking his view of the ball at a critical moment, causing the shortstop to lose sight of the ball, and not make the play.  There is no action on the ball.  There is no glove on the ball.  An otherwise routine play was not made, but through no fault of the fielder, but rather circumstances outside oh the fielder's control.  Is it still an error, since in your own words, there is no pass for conditions?

On the Kepler play, you also ignored what I said.  If the play had been exactly the same, other than the ball missed Kepler's glove by 2 inches, would you then say it's not an error, since the ball didn't touch his glove?

I’m not ignoring anything, we are talking about slightly different things.  This situation you are describing could very easily be an error based on how easy the play was.  The runner doesn’t factor into the decision.  In any situation where the runner was deemed to have affected the fielder, like doing the hokie pokie in front of the fielder, should be called for interference.  The same way the sun doesn’t factor, it’s there regardless and the fielder has to make the play and is judged on that alone.

On the Kepler play specifically, he is getting the benefit of the doubt being a known great outfielder.  I would call it an error as he was there in plenty of time and it bounced off his glove.  If the official scorer says an average fielder doesn’t get there at all a hit is somewhat defensible scoring. 

[SwainZag]

9 minutes ago, MinnesotaSportsDepressesU said:

If we can’t win a series like this at home how can you expect us to win in the playoffs? What’s crazy is none of us get paid a dime for our opinions but Rocco and management is going to retire LOADED all while making horrible decisions that we as fans can clearly see. This has to stop this front office and manager have to go. I do not want to the careers of lopez, Ryan, duran, Lewis, buxton, correa, julien, Walker Jenkins, brooks lee, and Matt Walner to turn into joe mauers career. This has to change and it’s not going to change with the current front office and management.

This is very over dramatic based on the result of one 3 game regular season series. 

[BsuNemo]

35 minutes ago, umterp23 said:

No need to pinch hit for julien in that moment… trust his eye at the plate than Vazquez all day everyday.  Rocco played right into rays hands. Tough loss

He did this in the 13 inning Texas game too and almost lost that game for us too. As a manager he has to know that they've got a righty warmed up... That tells me he made the move knowing they would counter and not caring... Vasquez hitting 220 overall or a young Julien that has shown an ability to at least take a walk vs a lefty that was wild... That move in the playoffs should cost him his job. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

26 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

I’m not ignoring anything, we are talking about slightly different things.  This situation you are describing could very easily be an error based on how easy the play was.  The runner doesn’t factor into the decision.  In any situation where the runner was deemed to have affected the fielder, like doing the hokie pokie in front of the fielder, should be called for interference.  The same way the sun doesn’t factor, it’s there regardless and the fielder has to make the play and is judged on that alone.

On the Kepler play specifically, he is getting the benefit of the doubt being a known great outfielder.  I would call it an error as he was there in plenty of time and it bounced off his glove.  If the official scorer says an average fielder doesn’t get there at all a hit is somewhat defensible scoring. 

You said it yourself--we're talking about different things.  So talk about what I'm talking about.  The runner, in my scenario, absolutely affected the play.  Stop equivocating and changing to a different scenario.  If the runner affects the play in a manner that is NOT interference, is it an error?  You also didn't answer my question about Kepler--if the ball doesn't hit his glove, is it an error?  If you don't want to directly respond to my very plain questions, then just don't respond.  Otherwise, concede the point or refute my exact scenarios.

[SwainZag]

20 minutes ago, BsuNemo said:

He did this in the 13 inning Texas game too and almost lost that game for us too. As a manager he has to know that they've got a righty warmed up... That tells me he made the move knowing they would counter and not caring... Vasquez hitting 220 overall or a young Julien that has shown an ability to at least take a walk vs a lefty that was wild... That move in the playoffs should cost him his job. 

I completely agree about hitting Vasquez in that situation, but I'm going to nit pick a little.  Julien has 42 PA against lefties in his career and hasn't walked once against a lefty. 

[Jocko87]

35 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

You said it yourself--we're talking about different things.  So talk about what I'm talking about.  The runner, in my scenario, absolutely affected the play.  Stop equivocating and changing to a different scenario.  If the runner affects the play in a manner that is NOT interference, is it an error?  You also didn't answer my question about Kepler--if the ball doesn't hit his glove, is it an error?  If you don't want to directly respond to my very plain questions, then just don't respond.  Otherwise, concede the point or refute my exact scenarios.

You might read back again.  These questions, and more, have been answered. Directly. 

[wsnydes]

 

 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, MinnesotaSportsDepressesU said:

If we can’t win a series like this at home how can you expect us to win in the playoffs? What’s crazy is none of us get paid a dime for our opinions but Rocco and management is going to retire LOADED all while making horrible decisions that we as fans can clearly see. This has to stop this front office and manager have to go. I do not want to the careers of lopez, Ryan, duran, Lewis, buxton, correa, julien, Walker Jenkins, brooks lee, and Matt Walner to turn into joe mauers career. This has to change and it’s not going to change with the current front office and management.

Woe, woe - slow down. It's just a single game and our entertainment. Relax, it's happy hour.

[cmoss84]

If nothing else, Cleveland's bullpen is getting worked today. Let's go Giants! Win this thing! 

[sampleSizeOfOne]

4 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Woe, woe - slow down. It's just a single game and our entertainment. Relax, it's happy hour.

Apropos? 

[insagt1]

6 hours ago, SwainZag said:

The pen gave up 1 run on 3 hits, walked no one and struck out 5 in 5 innings.   Overall the pen was pretty damn good today. 

we can no longer look at it that way. Its not how many you give up, but when. Its all about the 'W' because the 'stats' in post season don't get it done. I will pile on Jax because he threw a meatball at the worst possible time plus he has not been our guy 2nd half. I think Duran could have gotten the job done in the 9th...might not have mattered..but if he is 'the' closer, he has to pitch, not 'be unavailable'.

Bottom line, their guys shut us down when it counted and in mid September thats really all that matters, if you want to be a post season success. Today Jax was the goat. 3rd deck HR in the 9th...can't happen in a 4-4 game.

[SwainZag]

2 hours ago, insagt1 said:

we can no longer look at it that way. Its not how many you give up, but when. Its all about the 'W' because the 'stats' in post season don't get it done. I will pile on Jax because he threw a meatball at the worst possible time plus he has not been our guy 2nd half. I think Duran could have gotten the job done in the 9th...might not have mattered..but if he is 'the' closer, he has to pitch, not 'be unavailable'.

Bottom line, their guys shut us down when it counted and in mid September thats really all that matters, if you want to be a post season success. Today Jax was the goat. 3rd deck HR in the 9th...can't happen in a 4-4 game.

So would it have been better if say...Pagan gave up the solo HR in the 6th inning?  Game still ends 5-4.  Still asking the bullpen to pitch lights out for 5+ innings.  The Twins never had the lead in this game.  Yes, the Rays pen was better than the Twins......AND the Rays had a batter step up and get the big hit, the Twins didn't. The Twins had zero hits after the Kepler triple in the 5th.  

Jax did hang a pitch to a very good hitter and got burned.  I won't deny that, but I am not hanging the loss solely on his head.

 

[insagt1]

OK--I'll play😊 If Pagan gives up the HR in the 6th, Twins have 4 more innings to get it back, not one against their tough bullpen. Pressure mounts as the game advances. When you give up a 9th inning HR in a tie game, you just intensified the pressure needed to get back in it. So you can't assume a HR in the 6th would be the only run the rest of the game. Baseball rarely works that way. Sometimes it does (Cards hit a solo shot in the 4th yesterday and ended up winning 1-0..a total embarrassment to the Orioles) but thats baseball.

Would the Twins hitters (and TB pitchers) approached the game differently if it were 5-4 in the 6th? Possibly. Would we have been 'treated' to that ugly move of pinch hitting Vazquez in the 9th?

Fact is, Jax, who has been very inconsistent lately gave up the big hit at the worst time, leaving Twins with just one more inning to tie it up (not 4 as you suggested) On this day, he ''earned" the 'L' and I hope Twins stop using him in those pressure situations we complained about Pagan earlier this year.

Teams that want to win in post season don't take their foot off the gas in the final 2-3 weeks. Its a fools game to 'coast' into a short post season series. While Twins played TB 'tough' in the series, they still lost 2 of 3. You have to be able to win these games to be successful, not just 'play tough'.

I hope Twins finish the season with lots of wins and not just coast because their nearest competitor is really bad. I was disappointed in the game and the manager's decisions. But I'm a fan who wants to win. Period. Nothing else matters right now. I understand every fan is wired differently so I don't expect everyone to agree with me. And thats fine too.

(Plus I'm still feeling salty about the Bills-Jets disaster Monday)