What happened to Jose Miranda

[High heat]

What has went wrong with him!?  
He looks completely unrecognizable at the plate taking half hearted swing and rolling over balls down the middle.  His time in St. Paul he didn’t even put up decent #s against AAA pitching.  
 

Now back in the bigs because of injury he is a below average defender at 3B and if he can’t hit why is he up.  Stick with Farmer at 3B full time.  Hoping Lewis isn’t out long term with that oblique injury.

 

What do you do with Miranda now and going forward.?  Was he just a flash in the pan?  Did the twins hitting coaches try something different and mess him up completely?  Do pitchers have a book on how to get him out and he can’t adjust? 

[Trov]

14 minutes ago, High heat said:

What has went wrong with him!?  
He looks completely unrecognizable at the plate taking half hearted swing and rolling over balls down the middle.  His time in St. Paul he didn’t even put up decent #s against AAA pitching.  
 

Now back in the bigs because of injury he is a below average defender at 3B and if he can’t hit why is he up.  Stick with Farmer at 3B full time.  Hoping Lewis isn’t out long term with that oblique injury.

 

What do you do with Miranda now and going forward.?  Was he just a flash in the pan?  Did the twins hitting coaches try something different and mess him up completely?  Do pitchers have a book on how to get him out and he can’t adjust? 

Miranda had started to heat up a little in AAA before we brought him back up. In June he had an OPS of 798.  From what I have seen, and not watching him all the time, but he seems to have no plan up there at the plate.  He is taking defensive 2 strike swings but with no strikes on him.  I do not think he was just a flash in the pan, as he had success in minors.  Personally, I think his drop in weight has affected him more than people think.  When you are a certain body type for a long time, your body gets used to it.  When you change that up quickly, in his case over an offseason, it will take time for the body to adjust again, and when you are talking about fractions of inches making difference in a hit or not when ball hits bat.  

I do not know if coaching messed with him, or he messed with himself, or some combo, but he needs to get back to having aggressive swings early in counts.  I saw him the other day just flip a bat out on a 1-0 pitch rolling soft grounder to 2nd.  That type of swing should only be done with 2 strikes. 

Lewis will be out at least a month, if he does not come back ready to go, we will need to think about an under the radar trade for third as Mirand is nearly unplayable there, and Farmer is not exactly lighting it up. At least Farmer is not sub-par on defense. 

[chpettit19]

He's making some terrible swing decisions.

The first pick are swing% from 2022. On the left is league overall, the right is Miranda.

The second pick is from 2023. 

You can see that all of his big swing% in 2022 were in the heart of the plate, to up and in. All pitches he can do damage on. In 2023 he's all over the place. Much smaller sample size, but I think it's a good picture of what his struggles have been this year. Too many swings at pitches he can put in play, but not do damage with, which leads to a lot of soft contact, and outs.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I was never a true believer, but even I'm surprised at this. I'd consider moving Severino to AAA and seeing what he's got. As for the short term? I think I give Miranda two more weeks, and if he's not getting better, I likely call up Severino or Lee. 

[Squirrel]

14 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

He's making some terrible swing decisions.

The first pick are swing% from 2022. On the left is league overall, the right is Miranda.

The second pick is from 2023. 

You can see that all of his big swing% in 2022 were in the heart of the plate, to up and in. All pitches he can do damage on. In 2023 he's all over the place. Much smaller sample size, but I think it's a good picture of what his struggles have been this year. Too many swings at pitches he can put in play, but not do damage with, which leads to a lot of soft contact, and outs.

I wonder if he needs glasses!

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, Squirrel said:

I wonder if he needs glasses!

That thought did occur to me.... But I assume they get tested regularly?

[Unwinder]

I think it's some combination of his weight loss messing with him (and possibly reducing his power?), his shoulder injury from way back in spring training still nagging in some way, and his approach getting a lot worse, possibly as a side-effect of trying to adjust to one of the other things.

[Craig Arko]

When Polanco comes back, Farmer/Castro man 3rd and Miranda goes back to St. Paul. That’s my guess.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Craig Arko said:

When Polanco comes back, Farmer/Castro man 3rd and Miranda goes back to St. Paul. That’s my guess.

And one of their best young hitters, in Julien? 

[Squirrel]

19 minutes ago, Unwinder said:

I think it's some combination of his weight loss messing with him (and possibly reducing his power?), his shoulder injury from way back in spring training still nagging in some way, and his approach getting a lot worse, possibly as a side-effect of trying to adjust to one of the other things.

Weight loss … depends on if he lost fat while building muscle or if he lost muscle in the process. But the shoulder … that makes me wonder a bit. I think it’s a combination of things, but who knows what. Maybe he was never ‘all that’ to begin with, which is the danger of clamoring for prospects who have a one year surge and expecting them to translate that into major league ability. I think the fans have heaped on a lot of expectations, too.

[TwinsDr2021]

19 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

 

I was never a true believer, but even I'm surprised at this. I'd consider moving Severino to AAA and seeing what he's got. As for the short term? I think I give Miranda two more weeks, and if he's not getting better, I likely call up Severino or Lee. 

Got to say I agree, if your prospects aren't making their debut until 24 (Miranda about a month or so before his 24 birthday) they just can't be given the same leash as a prospect that debuts earlier. The 40 man, options and other prospects just get to difficult to navigate.

Severino turns 24 in October at some point he has to be given a chance right? Maybe even Martin he turns 25 by the start of next year.

The Twins seemed to have backed themselves in a corner this year. Not giving Wallner (25), Keirsey (26), Williams (26) and others an opportunity this year when there were ample chances to do so. Wallner or Larnach should have been starting just about every game this year until they proven they couldn't, then they should have been pushed aside for the likes of Keirsey, Soularie. And if they all failed that is why they brought in Gallo, Castro, Talyor, and Solano,

It looks like they will be going into next year in about the same spot as this year. Except swapping out AK for Miranda and Julien for Lanarch. Hoping they don't regress like Miranda did, but huge question marks in the outfield again, who backs up Buxton, who plays right and who plays left.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

1 hour ago, Trov said:

Miranda had started to heat up a little in AAA before we brought him back up. In June he had an OPS of 798.  From what I have seen, and not watching him all the time, but he seems to have no plan up there at the plate.  He is taking defensive 2 strike swings but with no strikes on him.  I do not think he was just a flash in the pan, as he had success in minors.  Personally, I think his drop in weight has affected him more than people think.  When you are a certain body type for a long time, your body gets used to it.  When you change that up quickly, in his case over an offseason, it will take time for the body to adjust again, and when you are talking about fractions of inches making difference in a hit or not when ball hits bat.  

I do not know if coaching messed with him, or he messed with himself, or some combo, but he needs to get back to having aggressive swings early in counts.  I saw him the other day just flip a bat out on a 1-0 pitch rolling soft grounder to 2nd.  That type of swing should only be done with 2 strikes. 

Lewis will be out at least a month, if he does not come back ready to go, we will need to think about an under the radar trade for third as Mirand is nearly unplayable there, and Farmer is not exactly lighting it up. At least Farmer is not sub-par on defense. 

Castro looks very capable when he plays 3B. 

[TwinsDr2021]

21 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

Maybe he was never ‘all that’ to begin with, which is the danger of clamoring for prospects who have a one year surge and expecting them to translate that into major league ability. I think the fans have heaped on a lot of expectations, too.

So are you saying maybe be leery of older prospects that haven't always dominated on their way to the majors?

[LA Vikes Fan]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

He's making some terrible swing decisions.

The first pick are swing% from 2022. On the left is league overall, the right is Miranda.

The second pick is from 2023. 

You can see that all of his big swing% in 2022 were in the heart of the plate, to up and in. All pitches he can do damage on. In 2023 he's all over the place. Much smaller sample size, but I think it's a good picture of what his struggles have been this year. Too many swings at pitches he can put in play, but not do damage with, which leads to a lot of soft contact, and outs.

I think this was the book on him before his breakout season in 2021. Good bat to ball skills but swings at a lot of pitches where he can't make good contact. They got him to focus only on stuff he could drive in 20222. Now pitchers have adjusted to his hot zones and he needs to make solid contact throughout the strike zone and lay off pitches outside the strike zone. Unfortunately, he's had a few balls called strikes early in the count and he gets very defensive, just tries to make contact and gets nothing good going. He's hitting afraid a little bit. 

Small sample size, but I don't think he's going to get much benefit being in the Bigs and should go back to AAA. I would try Julien and even Solano at 3B so they have a place to play when Polanco comes back by month end.  If they don't have the arm, then a Castro/Farmer mix is the answer. Bring up Wallner and see what he can do in LF, with Gallo playing CF with Taylor.  

[Mike Sixel]

4 minutes ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

I think this was the book on him before his breakout season in 2021. Good bat to ball skills but swings at a lot of pitches where he can't make good contact. They got him to focus only on stuff he could drive in 20222. Now pitchers have adjusted to his hot zones and he needs to make solid contact throughout the strike zone and lay off pitches outside the strike zone. Unfortunately, he's had a few balls called strikes early in the count and he gets very defensive, just tries to make contact and gets nothing good going. He's hitting afraid a little bit. 

Small sample size, but I don't think he's going to get much benefit being in the Bigs and should go back to AAA. I would try Julien and even Solano at 3B so they have a place to play when Polanco comes back by month end.  If they don't have the arm, then a Castro/Farmer mix is the answer. Bring up Wallner and see what he can do in LF, with Gallo playing CF with Taylor.  

Julien at third? No way. Polanco would be better there. I think it will be Castro, with Miranda back in AAA, with Severino sitting in AA wasting a chance to see what he's got

[stringer bell]

21 minutes ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Castro looks very capable when he plays 3B. 

Agreed. Willi Castro has played very good defense at third and in the few instances when he has played second. The problem is, even with the added value he supplies as a base runner, Will Castro isn't a good enough hitter that he should be getting platoon at-bats at third or an outfield corner. He's got a .692 OPS (92 OPS+) in over 230 plate appearances. Really good for a versatile utility guy, not so much for a regular (or near-regular) third baseman.

Willi has shown he is a major leaguer. He is a better fit as a utility player than Nick Gordon, but this year hasn't propelled him to where he should be given consideration as a starter (unless he improves enough on defense in center field).

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Agreed. Willi Castro has played very good defense at third and in the few instances when he has played second. The problem is, even with the added value he supplies as a base runner, Will Castro isn't a good enough hitter that he should be getting platoon at-bats at third or an outfield corner. He's got a .692 OPS (92 OPS+) in over 230 plate appearances. Really good for a versatile utility guy, not so much for a regular (or near-regular) third baseman.

Willi has shown he is a major leaguer. He is a better fit as a utility player than Nick Gordon, but this year hasn't propelled him to where he should be given consideration as a starter (unless he improves enough on defense in center field).

Sure, but we are talking about a gig until Lewis returns. What would you do? I'm assuming not Miranda?

[LonelyseatinMOA]

59 minutes ago, Unwinder said:

I think it's some combination of his weight loss messing with him (and possibly reducing his power?), his shoulder injury from way back in spring training still nagging in some way, and his approach getting a lot worse, possibly as a side-effect of trying to adjust to one of the other things.

If I can remember correctly in spring training the shoulder didn't seem to effect him at all. He had 5 HR and a 1.200 OPS in 45 ABs in spring training 

[stringer bell]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

Sure, but we are talking about a gig until Lewis returns. What would you do? I'm assuming not Miranda?

I guess Castro/Farmer is as good as they can do while not having a defensive black hole at third base. 

[Unwinder]

Just now, LonelyseatinMOA said:

If I can remember correctly in spring training the shoulder didn't seem to effect him at all. He had 5 HR and a 1.200 OPS in 45 ABs in spring training 

It sure didn't seem to be impeding him at the time, but spring training is still a small sample size, can't totally rule it out.

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So are you saying maybe be leery of older prospects that haven't always dominated on their way to the majors?

No. And I didn’t consider Miranda an older prospect two years ago or last year even. It’s not about age at all. I’m just saying that if a prospect has so so numbers then has a one year surge, which was kind of what Miranda did, and put him on our radars, be careful not to anoint him the next big thing until he has a couple years of that kind of production. He did well at AAA then did well last year. Now we are seeing a slump. If he comes back, great, if he doesn’t, well, he wasn’t all that people were suggesting he was.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

I wonder if he needs glasses!

His vision is something that I've thought about. It seems crazy that he'd go from really fixing his swing decisions the last 2 years, and seeing great success because of it, to back to his old self and struggling. Very weird.

[TwinsDr2021]

26 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

No. And I didn’t consider Miranda an older prospect two years ago or last year even. It’s not about age at all. I’m just saying that if a prospect has so so numbers then has a one year surge, which was kind of what Miranda did, and out him on our radars, be careful not to anoint him the next big thing until he has a couple years of that kind of production. He did well at AAA then did well last year. Now we are seeing a slump. If he comes back, great, if he doesn’t, well, he wasn’t all that people were suggesting he was.

He was 23 in AA when he took off and prior to that was decent prospect at best (minus when he repeated Rookie as a 19 year old. )The real surprise was how he continued that into AAA. He started AAA in 22 and wasn't great, but then got called up and did really well. I had/have hope in him still, but I see him a bit different since he was in the minors 5 years prior to that.

[CRF]

He looks like he's lost whatever confidence he might have had previously. I also think he might be taking his defensive problems to the plate with him. Some guys can separate the two aspects, and maybe he can't yet. Whatever the case is, I hope he can get back to where he was last season. 

[Squirrel]

46 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

He was 23 in AA when he took off and prior to that was decent prospect at best (minus when he repeated Rookie as a 19 year old. )The real surprise was how he continued that into AAA. He started AAA in 22 and wasn't great, but then got called up and did really well. I had/have hope in him still, but I see him a bit different since he was in the minors 5 years prior to that.

Again, for me, it’s not his age. That has nothing to do with it for me. But, sustained success at all levels does. People were ready to anoint him the next big thing after this surge he had, and now he’s fallen off. It might be sophomore slump, it might be his shoulder not quite right yet, it might be he lost muscle in his weight loss, it might be his eyes. For me, I wasn’t on that bandwagon when he was in AAA and why I suggested, maybe he wasn’t all that and now we are finding that out. But, these are all just ideas not answers. I hope someone can get to the heart of it.

[LA Vikes Fan]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Julien at third? No way. Polanco would be better there. I think it will be Castro, with Miranda back in AAA, with Severino sitting in AA wasting a chance to see what he's got

I'd be fine with Polanco at 3B if we think his arm is strong enough. That would open up 2B for a combination of Julien and Solano. It also might save some wear and tear on Polanco.  He can then move back to 2B once Lewis is ready to come back in August. 

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

4 hours ago, Unwinder said:

I think it's some combination of his weight loss messing with him (and possibly reducing his power?), his shoulder injury from way back in spring training still nagging in some way, and his approach getting a lot worse, possibly as a side-effect of trying to adjust to one of the other things.

You bring up a good point on the weight loss. Thought it was a good sign when they talked about the commitment to fitness and getting in better shape - then I saw him in spring training and couldn't believe how thin he was. Looks like a completely different person.

 

[Unwinder]

3 minutes ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

You bring up a good point on the weight loss. Thought it was a good sign when they talked about the commitment to fitness and getting in better shape - then I saw him in spring training and couldn't believe how thin he was. Looks like a completely different person.

 

I remember someone on here over the offseason commenting that they hoped weight loss wouldn't result in a loss of power for Miranda, and lo and behold, he seems to have lost power. I don't think that's DEFINITELY connected (he still looks pretty muscular to me), but it makes sense to look at what's changed.

[ICTwin25]

Weight Loss hurts the power and likely swing speed. No game plan at the plate hurts finding the right pitches. Having the group of hitting coaches the Twins have has him in the same boat as several other hitters and that's a down year. He likely isn't one that will bounce back and repeat what he did last year and could be packaged with other minor league guys for bullpen help...especially when he doesn't have a true position and the Twins top prospects are owned by infielders

[Linus]

The problem with Miranda (and Julien) is they can’t field. That means they have to hit at a very high level to be a dedicated DH. I don’t see either doing that so they would be my bait at the trade deadline.