Byron Buxton Playing Centerfield will not Fix this Twins Offense

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, rv78 said:

6 for 13 was what? 3 games? Against KC pitching. Then the downward slide began as you even prove by saying his average dropped from .462 to .302 and the downward slide hasn't stopped. And Miranda missed games due to a sore shoulder. He didn't play a ton like you think, although I will agree he played more than Buck. Maybe they both didn't play enough. My point still stands.

Your argument was that Buxton (or the "regulars" on the team) didn't play enough in spring training to be ready for the start of the season. Do the first 3 games not count as the beginning of the season? Byron Buxton went 2/5, 2/4, 2/4, 0/3, 1/4, 2/5, 1/5, 1/4, 0/1, 1/4, 1/4 for the first 11 games of the season. That's a hit in all but 2 games. I'm sorry if you didn't like how they used him in the spring, but it's absurd to suggest his spring usage meant he wasn't ready to hit. Hits in 9 of his first 10 starts, and 2 hits in 4 of his first 10 starts prove you're wrong.

Miranda didn't play in the field because of a sore shoulder. He played 14 games, and had 40 ABs, in the spring. If 40 ABs wasn't enough they have bigger problems. He played half the days they had spring training games. He got plenty of action. Willi Castro played 16, was that not enough either? Is that why he's struggling? The Twins had 29 game days for spring training. Their regulars need to play on 29 days? 25? 20? 15? What's the magic number? How many at bats? 80? 70? 60? 50? 40? The league leader in wRC+ right now is Matt Chapman. He had 46 ABs in 18 games. Were those extra 6 ABs the difference? Miranda just hasn't been able to make up that massive hole? 2nd highest wRC+ is Brandon Marsh. He had 50 ABs. Is that the secret number? Had Miranda gotten 50 ABs he'd be on fire? Luis Arraez is currently hitting .438. You know how many ABs he had in the spring? 31. He played 11 games. I'm going to go ahead and say your point doesn't stand at all.

Edited: I forgot about Arraez being in the WBC. He played 5 games, and had 17 ABs there. So 16 games and 48 ABs. Maybe it was the extra 2 games that really made the difference between him being ready for the season, and Miranda not being.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

24 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Is that the secret number? Had Miranda gotten 50 ABs he'd be on fire? Luis Arraez is currently hitting .438. You know how many ABs he had in the spring? 31. He played 11 games. I'm going to go ahead and say your point doesn't stand at all.

Arraez was in the WBC

[Minny505]

9 hours ago, William K Johnson said:

Move Taylor to a corner outfield position when facing lefthanders or when one of the left-handers are struggling.    Buxton in center, Taylor in a corner position would make a great outfield no matter who the third outfielder is.

I agree with putting Buxton and Taylor in the OF together, but I would put Buxton in RF and have him become the primary RFer. Hear me out.

There are many solid defensive RFers in MLB who primarily play RF instead of CF, not because they are not good enough to play CF, but because COF puts less stress on the body, which mitigates injury and rest days.

• Aaron Judge
• Mookie Betts
• Ronald Acuna Jr
• Daulton Varsho
• Lars Nootbaar
• Dylan Carlson
• Max Kepler 
• Randal Grichuck
• George Springer
• Fernando Tatis (yes, I may be jumping the gun here)

Ichiro stuck with RF for this reason and, while it was never stated, I would not be surprised if Henderson did the same. 

Buxton would likely be an upgrade on both offense and defense in RF. It would help mitigate physical stress vs CF while still giving us some of the value that we are currently missing in the field with him at DH. 

What do you think?

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Arraez was in the WBC

Fair. He had 17 ABs there. So he had 48 ABs in the spring. 8 more than Miranda. 

[rv78]

8 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Your argument was that Buxton (or the "regulars" on the team) didn't play enough in spring training to be ready for the start of the season. Do the first 3 games not count as the beginning of the season? Byron Buxton went 2/5, 2/4, 2/4, 0/3, 1/4, 2/5, 1/5, 1/4, 0/1, 1/4, 1/4 for the first 11 games of the season. That's a hit in all but 2 games. I'm sorry if you didn't like how they used him in the spring, but it's absurd to suggest his spring usage meant he wasn't ready to hit. Hits in 9 of his first 10 starts, and 2 hits in 4 of his first 10 starts prove you're wrong.

Miranda didn't play in the field because of a sore shoulder. He played 14 games, and had 40 ABs, in the spring. If 40 ABs wasn't enough they have bigger problems. He played half the days they had spring training games. He got plenty of action. Willi Castro played 16, was that not enough either? Is that why he's struggling? The Twins had 29 game days for spring training. Their regulars need to play on 29 days? 25? 20? 15? What's the magic number? How many at bats? 80? 70? 60? 50? 40? The league leader in wRC+ right now is Matt Chapman. He had 46 ABs in 18 games. Were those extra 6 ABs the difference? Miranda just hasn't been able to make up that massive hole? 2nd highest wRC+ is Brandon Marsh. He had 50 ABs. Is that the secret number? Had Miranda gotten 50 ABs he'd be on fire? Luis Arraez is currently hitting .438. You know how many ABs he had in the spring? 31. He played 11 games. I'm going to go ahead and say your point doesn't stand at all.

First of all, comparing Buck to Miranda or Chapman or Arraez or any other player is a moot point. Secondly, I said "maybe". That's a suggestion, a possibility, an opinion. You have opinions and so does everyone else. Learn to accept them. If it is your opinion that his start to the season is fine, then great. Be happy. Many here would beg to differ including me. 

[Riverbrian]

1 minute ago, rv78 said:

First of all, comparing Buck to Miranda or Chapman or Arraez or any other player is a moot point. Secondly, I said "maybe". That's a suggestion, a possibility, an opinion. You have opinions and so does everyone else. Learn to accept them. If it is your opinion that his start to the season is fine, then great. Be happy. Many here would beg to differ including me. 

I shouldn't step in here but I can't help it. 

They have a training complex down in Ft. Myers. They have a main field and a bunch backfields along with a bunch of baseball players hanging around all trying to get prepped for the start of the season. They have coaches and all kinds of simulation equipment and stuff. 

They are going to get a lot more work on timing on the backfields then they do in the stadium with umpires, a scoreboard and fans purchasing hot dogs watching them in the sunshine.

They spend a month down there to get ready.

With all due respect... Using playing time in spring games is a little tiny branch to hang on to. It isn't going to hold.   

[stringer bell]

1 hour ago, rv78 said:

6 for 13 was what? 3 games? Against KC pitching. Then the downward slide began as you even prove by saying his average dropped from .462 to .302 and the downward slide hasn't stopped. And Miranda missed games due to a sore shoulder. He didn't play a ton like you think, although I will agree he played more than Buck. Maybe they both didn't play enough. My point still stands.

Miranda DHed, then played first base and then played third the last few days in spring training. He had as many plate appearances as anybody in spring training and hit very well FWIW.

[Craig Arko]

But having healthy and productive Polanco and Kiriloff at bats might. And maybe raise the quality of those around them. I look forward to finding out.

[chpettit19]

25 minutes ago, rv78 said:

First of all, comparing Buck to Miranda or Chapman or Arraez or any other player is a moot point. Secondly, I said "maybe". That's a suggestion, a possibility, an opinion. You have opinions and so does everyone else. Learn to accept them. If it is your opinion that his start to the season is fine, then great. Be happy. Many here would beg to differ including me. 

Now comparing Buck to other players is a moot point? So first he didn't get enough playing time to be ready for the season, and now it's simply moot to even compare him to other players? We weren't discussing his overall stat line to this point of the season. You said his lack of spring training game reps meant he wasn't ready for the season. I proved you wrong so now you're trying to move the goal posts to the fact that he's struggled in the 3rd week of the season so his SSS line looks bad.

It's ok to say "you're right, now that you've provided me with actual data to disprove my opinion I'll change my opinion." Yes, we're all entitled to our opinions. Your opinion goes counter to the facts. Byron Buxton was absolutely ready to hit at the start of the season and he showed it. They're now deep enough into the season that any missed spring ABs have been made up with regular season ABs. Any struggles at this point have nothing at all to do with spring training. You didn't like how they handled spring playing time, and that's totally fine. Tying spring training playing time to ABs 44 through 62 (PAs #45-70) of the season is simply confirmation bias. It sucks the twins are struggling offensively right now. But today is game #20 for the Twins. Spring training doesn't matter anymore. They've made up for all those ABs you think they missed whether you liked how they handled spring or not.

[DocBauer]

Greg's OP is 100% on target. The Twins have, overall, one of the best duos at catcher, defensively and offensively. They have a 2 way STUD at SS who's off to a slow start. They have a tremendous defensive CF in Taylor who is no better, generally, offensively than average, despite his hot start. Now, maybe, a change in teams and hitting coaches, and out of Kaufman stadium, might raise his overall production. And nowhere has he, or anyone, stated that Buxton doesn't have value in CF. And I won't dispute that Buxton in CF doesn't allow for a better option at DH. Maybe Julien? 

But the OP is 100% correct that the 4 corner spots are the issue. 

Correa will be fine. Buck is streaky, but history shows tremendous production when healthy. 

Gallo will never be a great "hitter" but looks like he's found himself again as a great OPS and productive hitter. But I sure like him better in the OF and finding a better option at 1B.

And stalwart, very productive, and mainstay Polanco hasn't even played this year yet. 

I maintain that part of the issue is guys we EXPECT to produce have struggled, or been inconsistent over the first 3 weeks. The other issue is a collection of young talent that offers high potential, that hasn't fully established themselves yet, some due to injury.

Miranda needs to step up, no doubt. And he started slow last year. But do we really not expect him to step up? He had a great ST. 

Larnach had a great ST, flashed to start the season, slumped, but had a couple decent games recently. Does he really "get better" at AAA vs working through struggles? At some point isn't he better working through any issues at the ML level? I'm not sure he has anything to prove at the milb level.

Kirilloff, like Larnach, has flashed but has had his career and development interrupted by injuries. He LOOKS like he might finally be healthy. But if he comes up and flashes, or struggles, or both, do we give up? Or, like Larnach, with their talent, and tremendous milb production, aren't they, and the Twins, just better letting it ride a little bit to see what they can do? Do a few slumps mean demotion? Or do you ride it out for not only 2023, but the future?

Julien looks like a STUD, but might bounce a little bit between ML and AAA just based on the roster. But he's a keeper. Wallner still has to prove himself, but a quick look at talent and development season to season in milb tantalizes with potential.

But PROSPECTS do usually take a little time to settle in and figure it out at the ML level. And Julien, Larnach, Kirilloff, and Wallner are still all in the "prospect" range due to experience.

There is so much talent, and so many options, that a little time could provide huge improvement to the offense overall, the future, and the remainder of 2023. 

I've thought for months now the offense was a question mark based on development and opportunity. I've also thought the offense was about a year away from potentially being pretty damn good.

I'd run with Larnach, Kirilloff, Julien as far as I can, while embracing Gallo and Miranda, and the return of Polanco. Not only could we see the kids make a difference, and others cranking it up, but Lewis might be ready late June or early July.

I'm not trying to be a fatalist, but unless Kepler suddenly figures it out, which I still doubt, and Gordon proves his 2022 wasn't a mirage, the FO may have to make a couple hard decisions. At some point, you have to trust in potential and future vs mediocre or poor offensive players.

I have optimism the offense could still be pretty good with veterans heating up, and a return of Polanco, and some of the kids continuing to get opportunity. 

[JD-TWINS]

20 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

There is absolutely something to certain guys struggling as a DH as it's a very different mental approach to the game. I'm not sure Buxton's numbers suggest he's one of those guys, though. His numbers from last year sure don't look like playing CF made much of a difference:

Struck out 31% of the time as a CFer, 27 as a DH. Almost identical BA. Much better OBP as DH. Much better slugging as CF. Much better walk rate as DH. 

I think Buxton's in a week long slump. He was hitting over .300 a week ago. Think people are getting way too caught up in a small sample size. He has 1 hit in his last 6 games. No good at all. He had 9 in his first 6 games. Not sustainable at all. Buxton is just a streaky hitter.

Correct!

Maybe he got hypnotized before last night’s game v. Nationals………had Dr. tell him he was not DHing but actually playing CF so he could stay engaged……..2-4 in game one of the series. Baseball is a series of (0 - # off at bats) and a few (2-4’s) sprinkled in once in a while……hence the hopeful Average of .250 or better across the season.

I don’t think enough emphasis has been put on Buxton’s games played to date. 18 of 20 games (90%) & that means the DH move is working. He’s batting .242…..if he had 2 more walks & 1 more home run his slash line would be exactly what we would hope for from Byron. 3 different AB results & all would be good - it’s that early. Sample size is way too small.

Nobody likes to lose, especially after getting used to winning early, but gotta give him a break.

Correa & Miranda, regardless of $ they make, those 2 both need to get going!!

[USAFChief]

20 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

I don’t think enough emphasis has been put on Buxton’s games played to date. 18 of 20 games (90%) & that means the DH move is working. 

We're not getting Byron Buxton. We're getting Rob Deer without the walks.

[rv78]

15 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

You said his lack of spring training game reps meant he wasn't ready for the season.

NO, I SAID "MAYBE" ......... BIG DIFFERENCE. "MAYBE he WAS ready for the season, OKAY! Are you happy now? Quit taking comments out of context. Even if he hit well the first few games, it doesn't change the fact that I, or anyone else for that matter, can have the "opinion" that "MAYBE" he didn't play enough in ST. "MAYBE" he got lucky and hit KC pitching for 3 days which made it look like he was ready when he really wasn't. You, I or anyone else don't really don't know for sure. In all reality, I really think the reason for his current slump is twofold. 1. Because he is only DHing and NOT playing in the field as well. #2. Because he has become an all or nothing hitter like Sano. It started last year already. Please don't bother to try to prove me wrong. It's just an "opinion" and you aren't going to change it.

[chpettit19]

27 minutes ago, rv78 said:

NO, I SAID "MAYBE" ......... BIG DIFFERENCE. "MAYBE he WAS ready for the season, OKAY! Are you happy now? Quit taking comments out of context. Even if he hit well the first few games, it doesn't change the fact that I, or anyone else for that matter, can have the "opinion" that "MAYBE" he didn't play enough in ST. "MAYBE" he got lucky and hit KC pitching for 3 days which made it look like he was ready when he really wasn't. You, I or anyone else don't really don't know for sure. In all reality, I really think the reason for his current slump is twofold. 1. Because he is only DHing and NOT playing in the field as well. #2. Because he has become an all or nothing hitter like Sano. It started last year already. Please don't bother to try to prove me wrong. It's just an "opinion" and you aren't going to change it.

Again, he had hits in 9 of his first 10 starts. That's not getting lucky against KC pitching for 3 days.

His line as a DH and in CF were almost identical.

Don't let facts get in the way of your opinion, though. Have a wonderful day.

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

We're not getting Byron Buxton. We're getting Rob Deer without the walks.

He’s averaged 46% of the games (74) in 7 of 8 years. Gotta do something different or we pay him to sit half the year. Open to suggestions……..something other than “just play him til he gets hurt & who knows, maybe he won’t”. Are you concerned with $ he’s being paid? We have a gold glove CF playing every day - so our defense isn’t suffering.

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Again, he had hits in 9 of his first 10 starts. That's not getting lucky against KC pitching for 3 days.

His line as a DH and in CF were almost identical.

Don't let facts get in the way of your opinion, though. Have a wonderful day.

Careful with all that Medulla Oblongata talk.

[KirbyDome89]

23 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

Reviewing your 7X at 2 runs or less comment:

The Royals don’t have good pitchers - we had back to back 2-0 wins in the first series of the season. “Pitchers are ahead in April….” ?? or whatever - maybe we suck?

The other 5x we got two runs or less are against the 5 pitching stars we’ve faced that I mentioned originally…..Alcantara - Luzardo - Cease - Cole - Sale. It’s like facing Pablo López with better stuff 5 times out of 19 games. No reason to think we should do anything but struggle against these guys! There is no refuting this - all 5 of them are excellent.

Let’s wait til May 15 before we condemn our offense.

Houston’s starters - 3 game series with them -aren’t bad. Garcia - Brown - ??……Brown was very sharp as well!

I buy that offenses start more slowly. The sparkling numbers from the Twins own starting staff aren't going to hold, but there's still an offensive hierarchy and the Twins find themselves near the bottom. 

Sale has one good start in four tries this year, and it just so happens to be agains the Twins, but we can consider him a star if you'd like. So out of 9 games when they've finished the 9th innings with 2 or fewer runs (10 if you count last night) only half have been when the opposing pitcher was a "star." Should we expect this offense to consistently shrivel when facing good/decent pitching too? How low do we need to set the bar?

If the Twins were KC then yeah, I'd watch this lineup getting mowed down by high end pitching and think "no reason to expect them to compete," because KC is a terrible team. If you're supposed to be a frontrunner for the division title and we're talking postseason than yeah, I think you should at least look somewhat competent, even against high level pitching early in the season. 

[USAFChief]

9 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

He’s averaged 46% of the games (74) in 7 of 8 years. Gotta do something different or we pay him to sit half the year. Open to suggestions……..something other than “just play him til he gets hurt & who knows, maybe he won’t”. Are you concerned with $ he’s being paid? We have a gold glove CF playing every day - so our defense isn’t suffering.

Here's a suggestion: play him in CF every day. Let him run when he's on base. Let him be Buxton.

He might get injured, like any player. 

But We have MAT in CF and Rob Deer at DH. You think that's a good thing? 

I don't. I think that's how you end up the KC Royals.

 

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Byron Buxton playing center field will give Miranda an opportunity to DH now and then, for rest and a chance to either turn his mind off for a bit or chat with hitting coach between innings. 

Byron Buxton playing center field would also open a slot for Kirilloff or Wallner to DH against righties. 

Miranda, Wallner and Kirilloff being better bets than Taylor at the plate. 

At this point I’m thinking their magic date for putting Buxton in the field is May 2 in Chicago. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Hosken Bombo Disco

[dxpavelka]

Still suffering from the fact that Kiriloff & Larnach have not delivered on the promise that precipitated the release of Rosario.