Are the Twins going into retooling mode?

[Twins GFP]

22 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

That's not what I said. I said that if there are 4 open spots, those are likely it.

I do think they need a legit SS.....I left that off by accident. I've also been quite clear in other threads they should sign CC and then deal Lee or Lewis as part of a package to get a number 1 or 2 pitcher. 

Right... Pitching staff.  Other than SS, are you ready to run with Gordon in LF, Miranda at 3B, Kepler in RF, and the youth movement backing them up?

[nicksaviking]

4 minutes ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

I think the team tries to win, I think the FO down all try to win.  I think the Pohlads give them dollar frame to work out of.  Period.  I do not think they care if the Twins win or lose, because they will make money either way.

Just stop. Say that you're not happy this team hasn't won a World Series recently. End of sentence. This is utter nonsense. They won't make more money by winning? Be disappointing, don't be hyperbolic.

The front office and ownership, they're trying to win. Feel free to dislike the Pohlads, they're not my favorite, but they're better than just about every other non-major-market ownership group. Just about every other team has to put up wallowing in the low end of the payroll pool regularly, the Twins have RARELY done that. We could be much worse off, stop acting like us poor Twins fans have it worse than everyone else.

[Twins GFP]

Look,

I believe that the Twins organization wants to win.  I believe the FO tries to sign players, I believe the coaching staff wants to see players improve, I believe the players want to win.

I do not believe the Pohlads give 2 cents about the product on the field.  If they did, they would worry less about their profit margin.  I am not saying they need to have a $300m payroll.  What I am saying is that they could spend more and still make money.

The FO has said publicly in the past that the Pohlads are willing to go "over budget" if the FO felt the move would push the team over.  That is a double edged sword, because if it fails, they will probably not be given that leeway in the future.  The FO office knows this.  If it works, then the Pohlads make more money

The Twins work within a budget, a relatively low budget.  Any move they make, has drastic effects on other moves.  The FO knows that.  We know that.

The longer this offseason goes that the Twins do not sign a needle-mover-type player, the more likely it is they will not put any demonstrable money into the FA market and let the chips fall where thy may for 2023.

[wsnydes]

Retooling?  That's what I feel they did last offseason.  Correa signing notwithstanding.  Them not signing anyone at this point doesn't mean a whole lot considering who has come off the board.  Their prime target is still out there.  With reports that Arraez is being dangled, it would appear that they're more likely to trade for pitching than sign FAs.  

Hard to glean much at this point in the offseason.  I'm not one that ever expects them to be heavy spenders during the winter meetings, so their perceived inactivity is just par for the course.  Ask me again when pitchers and catchers are about to report.

[Twins GFP]

6 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Just stop. Say that you're not happy this team hasn't won a World Series recently. End of sentence. This is utter nonsense. They won't make more money by winning? Be disappointing, don't be hyperbolic.

The front office and ownership, they're trying to win. Feel free to dislike the Pohlads, they're not my favorite, but they're better than just about every other non-major-market ownership group. Just about every other team has to put up wallowing in the low end of the payroll pool regularly, the Twins have RARELY done that. We could be much worse off, stop acting like us poor Twins fans have it worse than everyone else.

Interesting take, considering I have written extensively about how I enjoy the ride more than the results.

I can't speak to how other mid-level teams and down handle their finances, I do not follow them.  I don't believe I have said that the Twins fans have it worse than every one else.  I am saying there is room to grow and it is fair to be disappointed that path is not taken.

[Original_JB]

10 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Just stop. Say that you're not happy this team hasn't won a World Series recently. End of sentence. This is utter nonsense. They won't make more money by winning? Be disappointing, don't be hyperbolic.

The front office and ownership, they're trying to win. Feel free to dislike the Pohlads, they're not my favorite, but they're better than just about every other non-major-market ownership group. Just about every other team has to put up wallowing in the low end of the payroll pool regularly, the Twins have RARELY done that. We could be much worse off, stop acting like us poor Twins fans have it worse than everyone else.

Let me ask you this, if they were "trying to win", why didn't the Twins just sign Correa to a normal, market rate/length contract when they had the opportunity to? The SS's in the bushes don't count as just about every non-pitcher/catcher in the organization was a SS at some point in time. No, Boras and Pohlad did it that way so Correa would have a giant contract with 2 more years guaranteed at a minimum, plus could walk at will, and the Twins could make the headline claims of "Twins pay highest contract ever ("for one year" in fine print)", "Twins have highest paid non-pitcher in baseball ("for one year" in fine print)" so they look like they're willing to spend money and 'compete' -- sort of.

[nicksaviking]

15 minutes ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

The longer this offseason goes that the Twins do not sign a needle-mover-type player, the more likely it is they will not put any demonstrable money into the FA market and let the chips fall where thy may for 2023.

There are only two 'needle movers' this team has any business going after this off season, and they're still available. If they don't get them, they SHOULD let the chips fall where they may. I would rather roll the dice on, and more importantly watch, the young players already on the team than 90% of the free agents who have already signed. 

I will be disappointed if they don't get Correa or Bogaerts, but the trend that if we are disappointed about something, there must be a villain is self defeating.

[Original_JB]

1 minute ago, nicksaviking said:

There are only two 'needle movers' this team has any business going after this off season, and they're still available. If they don't get them, they SHOULD let the chips fall where they may. I would rather roll the dice on, and more importantly watch, the young players already on the team than 90% of the free agents who have already signed. 

The trend that if we are disappointed about something, there must be a villain is self defeating.

I didn't realize that trades weren't allowed in the off-season.

[Heistyman]

I think we have too many Q's on the roster.  Kirilloff wrist, Jeffers hitting, Miranda to 3rd, Polanco & Kepler rebound, Larnach developing, Buxton health, 32 yr old SS.  How do you trust that all this will go your way, enough so that you spend crazy money on a guy or two?   Almost looks like a year where you see how things break with what you have and trade to either build up or tear down.

[nicksaviking]

32 minutes ago, Original_JB said:

I didn't realize that trades weren't allowed in the off-season.

Yeah, I'm all on board with trading for a pitcher better than Ryan/Gray.

[DJL44]

3 hours ago, Dave Overlund said:

I cannot think of who else would even be bidding outside of Sinclair.

"14 teams broadcast on Bally Sports affiliates, four on NBC Sports Regional Networks affiliates and four on AT&T SportsNet affiliates. Meanwhile, the New York Mets are broadcast on SportsNet New York; the New York Yankees are on YES Network; the Los Angeles Dodgers are on Spectrum SportsNet LA; the Chicago Cubs are on Marquee Sports Network; the Baltimore Orioles and the Washington Nationals are on MASN and MASN2; the Boston Red Sox are on NESN; and the Toronto Blue Jays are on Sportsnet."

NBC regional broadcasts the Giants, White Sox, A's, and Phillies. AT&T Sportsnet broadcasts the Astros, Pirates, Rockies and Mariners. Both should bid for Twins games.

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

Just stop. Say that you're not happy this team hasn't won a World Series recently. End of sentence. This is utter nonsense. They won't make more money by winning? Be disappointing, don't be hyperbolic.

The A's were probably more profitable than the Padres last season.

[nicksaviking]

22 minutes ago, baul0010 said:

I love your optimism.  I hope we sign Rodon and Correa. I'm not sulking, I don't really care.  It is what it is, we live in Minnesota.  The Twins aren't handing out large long term contracts.  We are bargain shoppers.  We don't have to be delusional about who we are.  We are Target shoppers.  We don't frequent Dior boutiques.   

What optimism? I'm not terribly optimistic at this point. I'm saying the conspiracy theories are such a lame way to cope with your disappointment.

The Twins regularly spend more money than the rest of the non-large market clubs not in St. Louis or San Diego. The spending spree by the way being new to San Diego, who for the last two decades mostly slummed it with Pittsburgh and Oakland. I'm sure their fans complained about that too. You don't have to be happy, just be rational.

[KirbyDome89]

2 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Just stop. Say that you're not happy this team hasn't won a World Series recently. End of sentence. This is utter nonsense. They won't make more money by winning? Be disappointing, don't be hyperbolic.

The front office and ownership, they're trying to win. Feel free to dislike the Pohlads, they're not my favorite, but they're better than just about every other non-major-market ownership group. Just about every other team has to put up wallowing in the low end of the payroll pool regularly, the Twins have RARELY done that. We could be much worse off, stop acting like us poor Twins fans have it worse than everyone else.

Sub prioritize for care if it makes the message more palatable, but I don't think the sentiment is wrong. Last season was a disaster on the field, I doubt the accounting department would describe it similarly. 

So celebrate the fact that we're not Pittsburgh? "Not as bad as," is beside the point. How shallow is the low end? The Twins have pretty consistently been in the bottom third of payroll. 

[nicksaviking]

14 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Sub prioritize for care if it makes the message more palatable, but I don't think the sentiment is wrong. Last season was a disaster on the field, I doubt the accounting department would describe it similarly. 

So celebrate the fact that we're not Pittsburgh? "Not as bad as," is beside the point. How shallow is the low end? The Twins have pretty consistently been in the bottom third of payroll. 

Sorry, I know that's the perception but it's inaccurate. The Twins have been in the bottom 3rd of the payroll spectrum only three times since Target Field opened, and not since 2017. They are THE most reliable club in the middle 3rd.

[KirbyDome89]

3 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Sorry, I know that's the perception but it's inaccurate. The Twins have been in the bottom 3rd of the payroll spectrum only three times since Target Field opened, and not since 2017. They are THE most reliable club in the middle 3rd.

Yep, TF was a small bump, and they haven't come close to that in nearly a decade. Since slashing payroll in 2013 they've finished above league average one time (last year when they were right at average) and haven't been a top 15 spending team once. They've finished 20th or below (4 times) nearly as often as they haven't (4x at 18th and 1x at 16th.) I don't think the perception is all that inaccurate. 

 

[Battle ur tail off]

1 hour ago, bap3141 said:

This is what I've been hoping for as well. Sign Correa and shop Lewis, who might just be their top trade chip (after Arraez).

You guys are gutsy. Unless you are wanting to move him because of his injury concerns, Lewis is the most athletic player outside of Buxton in the whole organization. Lewis is a middle of the diamond ballplayer without a doubt.

Trade Lee, he is probably higher rated and from watching him is much more stiff. He looks to me more like a corner player. I just am all about keeping your athletic middle of the field guys that are fluid, can run, etc if they can hit at all. 

[nicksaviking]

5 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Yep, TF was a small bump, and they haven't come close to that in nearly a decade. Since slashing payroll in 2013 they've finished above league average one time (last year when they were right at average) and haven't been a top 15 spending team once. They've finished 20th or below (4 times) nearly as often as they haven't (4x at 18th and 1x at 16th.) I don't think the perception is all that inaccurate. 

 

Now you're cherry picking AND changed your narrative. I don't see anything you've posted to support your claim that they're always in the bottom 3rd in spending. They've been in the 11-20 range of payroll all but four times since TF opened. Once they were above, three times below. The other non-major market clubs regularly sit in the 21-30 range for extended stretches. And of their peer teams, only the Cardinals regularly jump into the top 10.

[KirbyDome89]

50 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Now you're cherry picking AND changed your narrative. I don't see anything you've posted to support your claim that they're always in the bottom 3rd in spending. They've been in the 11-20 range of payroll all but four times since TF opened. Once they were above, three times below. The other non-major market clubs regularly sit in the 21-30 range for extended stretches. And of their peer teams, only the Cardinals regularly jump into the top 10.

You're using opening TF spending years but I'm the one cherry picking? Tell me with a straight face that 3 year span isn't a massive outlier. Celebrating the 20th ranked payroll in baseball coming off that 2019 season is a weird flex, no? You win though, 20th and 18th doesn't technically qualify as bottom third.

You cited payroll as an example of their commitment to winning. I don't see the Twins' spending as commensurate with their market size, or the deep pockets of their ownership. I'm not seeing where I shifted the narrative. 

[Danchat]

I don't consider re-tooling to be running back most of the roster, which appears to be the plan in 2023. 2022 had several moves but most of them were made to make the current team competitive (Correa, Gray, Mahle, Fulmer, Lopez). 

I think some people are getting confused by the fact that they're not very good at actually winning games == that they haven't been trying to. 

[Riverbrian]

6 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Correa (who fell in their lap)

Fell Hard

Third Highest AAV for a position player in Major League History. 

1. Judge

2. Trout

3. Correa. 

[Squirrel]

MOD NOTE TO ALL: Stop bickering, stop whining. If you can’t be civil, go elsewhere.

[Dewie]

Let Polanco and Correa go and then I think we can say that.

[JD-TWINS]

23 hours ago, Azviking101 said:

Wanted to throw in something Lavelle tweeted yesterday because I think he makes a great point. Also what does payroll currently look like? I’m not seeing an accurate number anywhere 

“Now, I believe this should be a year in which they push payroll. They still get more revenue from ticket sales than TV contract. Which is absurd. Crappy TV deal expires after this season. This is the year they push to win and leverage it into a better TV deal.”

 

Makes sense to make a run for a better TV deal but I can’t imagine that there’s much competition in the TV market nor a lot of available TV $. That said:

Omar Narváez - LH - Catcher 3 yrs. @ $9.5/yr.

Chris Bassitt - RH - SP 3 yrs. @ $18-$21/yr.

Michael Fulmer - RH - RP 2 yrs. @ $8.0/yr.

Jose Iglecias - RH - SS 2 yrs. @ 8.0/yr.

These guys are available!! Solves left handed catcher issue for platoon. Provides high inning experienced starter. Provides a known quantity, effective reliever. Gives us a solid placeholder for any one of the 3 possibilities in our farm system.

This is a guess for Narváez - any surplus in that offer could be applied to the pitchers. TOTAL of $43.5 million with a supposed $60 now left to spend. It’s 4 guys that are solid contributors for $8 million more/yr. than Correa - no BAD MONEY spent on an 8–10 year contract for a SS!

This line-up will generate Anticipation, Wins, Excitement, & Attendance……..incoming $!!

Let’s get aggressive with signings & out of the Correa bidding war!

[howeda7]

20 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Now you're cherry picking AND changed your narrative. I don't see anything you've posted to support your claim that they're always in the bottom 3rd in spending. They've been in the 11-20 range of payroll all but four times since TF opened. Once they were above, three times below. The other non-major market clubs regularly sit in the 21-30 range for extended stretches. And of their peer teams, only the Cardinals regularly jump into the top 10.

This is true, but St. Louis is the market we should be emulating. MSP is a bigger market than St. Louis and when competitive, the Twins attendance and TV ratings have been strong.

[Whitey333]

Like normal, the Twins wait to sign any free agents while other teams gobble them up.  This has been their MO for years and has been double downed on by the current FO.  No surprises so far this off season.  What's frustrating is the team keeps intimating their enthusiasm for certain free agents but hardly ever sign one of significance.  And if they do, they just let.us all hanging while we wait for an assumed follow move to back up the free agent signing.  And it never comes.  Forget about Correa.  He alone is not going to get us into the playoffs.  We have a lot of holes to fill.  The FO has a lot of praying to do.  Praying that the injured players come back AND perform.  That the young players prove they are as good as all the Twins hype gives them.  This FO needs to have a whole team.  Not just a mediocre one with an over paid shortstop as their only addition this winter.