Nick Gordon

[stringer bell]

Nick Gordon has been on the Twins roster for most of the season. He was first recalled in early May and spent a week with the team only getting in one game. He was sent down, but then recalled later in May and has been on the team since. By my calculation, he has been on the club for about 55 days. Gordon has played in 24 games and only has 69 plate appearances. 

The results have been pretty good. Despite sporadic play, Gordon has managed to hit .262 and garner a .674 OPS. Gordon has struck out 27.5% of the time and walked 5.8% of his plate appearances. He is also five for five stealing bases and has played center field, second base and shortstop. This looks to be the profile of a utility player if he can sustain the offense. Given the Twins dearth of base stealing threats not named Buxton, it would figure that Nick should be a candidate to stay on the Twins roster the rest of 2021 and into 2022. He is 25 years old and with today's free agency rules would be controlled by the Twins for six additional years beyond this one.

There are questions to be answered about Gordon. First and foremost, can he sustain his 90 OPS+ with more at bats? He is 2 for his last 20 with 10 strikeouts, so maybe and maybe not. Secondly, is he truly a flexible defender or is he a "break glass in case of emergency" shortstop and center fielder? Gordon has played 97 innings in center field and five innings at shortstop, much too small of a sample to make a judgement from his on-field performance. Of course, the hitting sample is too small to be certain as well.

With over 70 games remaining in what appears to be a lost season, it makes sense to see what Gordon can do at the plate and in positions other than second base. Having someone with the ability to steal a base on the bench would be an asset in itself. If he could capably step in and play at three or four different positions he becomes pretty valuable.

My opinion is that the indications are not favorable. Rather than use Gordon at short, Baldelli has moved Polanco there when he's needed to. Also, after the original flash, Gordon's hitting has been pretty weak. Gordon is currently #3 in the depth chart at second base. If he can't play other positions, the future isn't bright for him in Minnesota.

I'm not opposed to seeing Gordon get a trial the rest of the season. It makes sense to see if he can blossom and there's not much to lose. I don't think it is a miscarriage of justice that he has seen so little playing time to date, but the Twins do need to make a decision on Gordon and some other guys and the rest of the season is the time to make those determinations.

 

 

 

 

[4twinsJA]

I would like to see Gordon get regular ABs, playing time at AAA for an extended time. Not going to get consistent playing time at MLB level.

[Mike Sixel]

I'd like to see him play nearly everyday in Minnesota, or be part of a trade package.

[yeahyabetcha]

4 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'd like to see him play nearly everyday in Minnesota, or be part of a trade package.

Why can’t he just be a bench player?  He would provide some speed off the bench and be a spot starter.

[bighat]

57 minutes ago, yeahyabetcha said:

Why can’t he just be a bench player?  He would provide some speed off the bench and be a spot starter.

In my opinion, Gordon at least deserves a chance to get everyday MLB playing time before that decision is made. It's ridiculous that Baldelli is sitting this kid 6 days per week.

Luis Arraez and Jorge Polanco were both top 20 organizational prospects but they're weren't on the level of guys like Sano, Buxton, Kirilloff, or Royce Lewis. Even so, they were given an opportunity to play themselves into the every day lineup. Gordon is also a fringe top 20 prospect and should get the same chance.

The problem is finding room for him somewhere, and trading a DH isn't going to help free up much space for him. Maybe Larnach and Kiriloff can DH more?

[stringer bell]

39 minutes ago, bighat said:

In my opinion, Gordon at least deserves a chance to get everyday MLB playing time before that decision is made. It's ridiculous that Baldelli is sitting this kid 6 days per week.

Luis Arraez and Jorge Polanco were both top 20 organizational prospects…….

Where could/should Nick get regular time? Arraez and Polanco are proven major leaguers (and also the favorite for Twins minor league Player of the Year also plays second). 
 

Arraez is actually younger by a year and a half. Polanco has a multi year contract. So, if he doesn’t play other positions, there’s really no future with the Twins for him. 

[notoriousgod71]

Pencil Gordon in as a bench player and he'll still get 450 AB (if he doesn't get hurt himself). Injuries will make sure of that.

 

 

[bean5302]

Gordon needs to stick around. While I've seen comments talking about him needing to eat a couple cheeseburgers to build up some muscle, there's a reason he's so svelte. He's suffered from a really nasty bout of digestive tract issues coupled with a bad case of COVID-19 over the past 2-3 years. According to Gordon, he was playing around 185lbs and dropped down to 160lbs at one point.

In regard to his defense, he's got all the tools to be a shortstop, but he's had a serious issue with errors. I haven't looked into it in regard to whether his errors were throwing or glove related so it's tough to say what's going on there. I remember Trevor Plouffe being an error machine with the Twins at shortstop while Gardy was hard on Plouffe to play more aggressively, charge the ball more and palm it while throwing off balance, rather than gloving it and set throwing. Those kinds of approach changes can lead to really high error rates as well.

I think starting Gordon at SS once Simmons is traded is the best way to use him. Every day as a shortstop so the Twins can see what they really have first hand. If another team is able to work out the issues and Gordon packs some weight back on while remaining healthy on somebody else's roster, I could see it being a real black eye for the organization.

[Dman]

Most analysts don't seem to see Gordon as a SS.  Not sure why exactly.  I know he had alot of error when he played Short.  I think what I had read said he just doesn't natural body control to catch and make a good strong throw to first.  Maybe it is his slight frame, maybe it is flexibility I have no idea but this what Keith Law had to say about Gordon. "Law sees Gordon as a second baseman —and has for a while— and notes that Gordon will have to hit very well (read: around his 2018 Double-A numbers) to regain prospect status."

Not sure why they couldn't play Gordon there in a pinch unless they just really don't trust him to make those throws without the errors.

[bean5302]

3 minutes ago, Dman said:

Most analysts don't seem to see Gordon as a SS.  Not sure why exactly.  I know he had alot of error when he played Short.  I think what I had read said he just doesn't natural body control to catch and make a good strong throw to first.  Maybe it is his slight frame, maybe it is flexibility I have no idea but this what Keith Law had to say about Gordon. "Law sees Gordon as a second baseman —and has for a while— and notes that Gordon will have to hit very well (read: around his 2018 Double-A numbers) to regain prospect status."

Not sure why they couldn't play Gordon there in a pinch unless they just really don't trust him to make those throws without the errors.

The error rate was the issue from my understanding. Again, not sure what's causing the errors, but speed, agility and arm strength are all there.

[TheLeviathan]

9 hours ago, yeahyabetcha said:

Why can’t he just be a bench player?  He would provide some speed off the bench and be a spot starter.

I'm confused. He has quite a degree of talent and pedigree to decide he is a bench player without any sustained opportunity to prove otherwise.

IMO, as a general rule, young players should be given a real, consistent shot to be successful.  Gordon's talent deserves that chance.

[yeahyabetcha]

30 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

I'm confused. He has quite a degree of talent and pedigree to decide he is a bench player without any sustained opportunity to prove otherwise.

IMO, as a general rule, young players should be given a real, consistent shot to be successful.  Gordon's talent deserves that chance.

He has had years of minor league opportunity.  I would think the Twins have an idea of his abilities.  He could start as a bench player and when he shows that he has the bat of Ripken and the glove if Ozzie Smith he will get promoted to a full time starter.  Meanwhile Polanco and Arraez should get the at bats.

[bean5302]

33 minutes ago, yeahyabetcha said:

He has had years of minor league opportunity.  I would think the Twins have an idea of his abilities.  He could start as a bench player and when he shows that he has the bat of Ripken and the glove if Ozzie Smith he will get promoted to a full time starter.  Meanwhile Polanco and Arraez should get the at bats.

Neither Polanco nor Arraez are passable at shortstop despite the Twins desperately trying to make Polanco stick there for several years at the MLB level before finally pulling the plug. Polanco's UZR/150 was consistently in the conversation for the worst starting shortstop in MLB almost every year he was a starter at the position.

I'd like to see if Gordon can cover shortstop and see what the defensive shortcomings are. If you're assuming the Twins have a better idea than I do, I'd bet 100% you're correct, but it sure would be nice to see Gordon at least given a shot at a position we don't have anybody lined up to play next year before Gordon enters his prime. Also, I would agree the Twins would give a player with Hall of Famer levels of production at least a shot at starting, but I feel like setting the bar at Hall of Fame production or benchwarmer to be a little short sighted. Of course, Arraez and Polanco have both earned their spots as everyday players so it's tough, politically, to give Gordon a starting job.

[yeahyabetcha]

8 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Neither Polanco nor Arraez are passable at shortstop despite the Twins desperately trying to make Polanco stick there for several years at the MLB level before finally pulling the plug. Polanco's UZR/150 was consistently in the conversation for the worst starting shortstop in MLB almost every year he was a starter at the position.

I'd like to see if Gordon can cover shortstop and see what the defensive shortcomings are. If you're assuming the Twins have a better idea than I do, I'd bet 100% you're correct, but it sure would be nice to see Gordon at least given a shot at a position we don't have anybody lined up to play next year before Gordon enters his prime. Also, I would agree the Twins would give a player with Hall of Famer levels of production at least a shot at starting, but I feel like setting the bar at Hall of Fame production or benchwarmer to be a little short sighted. Of course, Arraez and Polanco have both earned their spots as everyday players so it's tough, politically, to give Gordon a starting job.

It appears the Twins have determined that he is either not ready or more likely is not what they want as regular major league SS.  He must not have shown it in the minors and  they probably don’t feel that he is going to all of a sudden become a major league SS.

[TheLeviathan]

10 hours ago, yeahyabetcha said:

He has had years of minor league opportunity.  I would think the Twins have an idea of his abilities.  He could start as a bench player and when he shows that he has the bat of Ripken and the glove if Ozzie Smith he will get promoted to a full time starter.  Meanwhile Polanco and Arraez should get the at bats.

The minors and majors are not the same thing.  But I'm not sure that point matters if he has to somehow achieve HOF performance from the bench to get playing time.

[Brock Beauchamp]

19 hours ago, bighat said:

In my opinion, Gordon at least deserves a chance to get everyday MLB playing time before that decision is made. It's ridiculous that Baldelli is sitting this kid 6 days per week.

Luis Arraez and Jorge Polanco were both top 20 organizational prospects but they're weren't on the level of guys like Sano, Buxton, Kirilloff, or Royce Lewis. Even so, they were given an opportunity to play themselves into the every day lineup. Gordon is also a fringe top 20 prospect and should get the same chance.

The problem is finding room for him somewhere, and trading a DH isn't going to help free up much space for him. Maybe Larnach and Kiriloff can DH more?

I understand the desire to see Gordon play more but we aren't within a country mile of "ridiculous", in my opinion.

The trade deadline is in less than three weeks and the Twins are pretty obviously showcasing pretty much their entire roster for possible trade candidates. In the here and now, that is the right decision. Nick Gordon should not be playing over the likes of Arraez, Kirilloff, Larnach, et al for obvious reasons. They're all better players and building blocks to the next good Twins team. Gordon also shouldn't be playing over the likes of Sano, Cruz, Simmons, Donaldson, et al because if the Twins can trade those guys in the next three weeks, they will eagerly do so. Teams don't maximize trade value of a player by not playing them in the lead-up to the deadline.

Be patient. There is a full two months of baseball after the deadline. If Gordon isn't receiving significant playing time in those two months, I'll likely be standing right next to you in the "ridiculous" camp of arguments.

[stringer bell]

11 hours ago, bean5302 said:

 

I'd like to see if Gordon can cover shortstop and see what the defensive shortcomings are. If you're assuming the Twins have a better idea than I do, I'd bet 100% you're correct, but it sure would be nice to see Gordon at least given a shot at a position we don't have anybody lined up to play next year before Gordon enters his prime. Also, I would agree the Twins would give a player with Hall of Famer levels of production at least a shot at starting, but I feel like setting the bar at Hall of Fame production or benchwarmer to be a little short sighted. Of course, Arraez and Polanco have both earned their spots as everyday players so it's tough, politically, to give Gordon a starting job.

Isn't the definition of insanity something like "doing the same thing and expecting different results". The Twins tried to stretch Polanco into an everyday shortstop, why should they try to do the same with Gordon?

I would like to see if Gordon can hit enough to justify a major league job. I don't think 70 plate appearances is enough to prove anything. The Twins know a lot more about Gordon's skills than I do. They seem to believe he can't play short better than Polanco. They tried him in center when six other guys were tried and were injured. 

I'll stick with my opinion that Gordon is a second baseman and third on the depth chart there. He offers one skill that the Twins lack, base stealing speed. I don't think that is enough to force his way into an everyday lineup or to move Polanco or Arraez (who both provide offensive skills the Twins need) out of town or out of the lineup.

[yeahyabetcha]

4 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

The minors and majors are not the same thing.  But I'm not sure that point matters if he has to somehow achieve HOF performance from the bench to get playing time.

The minors do mean something.  In this case it means the Twins do not see Gordon as a viable SS option right now.  In comparison to Simmons alone, I think the argument could be made that Simmons is a better SS this year, and will be a better option next year and the year after that.

[TheLeviathan]

13 minutes ago, yeahyabetcha said:

The minors do mean something.  In this case it means the Twins do not see Gordon as a viable SS option right now.  In comparison to Simmons alone, I think the argument could be made that Simmons is a better SS this year, and will be a better option next year and the year after that.

They mean something, but the majors is another level.  We see it with Larnach right now: young players need time to adjust and play through struggles.

I am open to where Gordon plays to get that chance, but if you are seriously suggesting he has to be a combo of two of baseball's alltime best shortstops just to play.....then we just aren't having a realistic conversation.

[insagt1]

Arraez and Polanco need to be in there everyday. If the Twins move Donaldson, perhaps Gordon gets a closer look? While in Rochester, Gordon made the tough plays, but most his errors were on routine grounders and easy throws to first. That was aggravating.

From a fan aspect, yesterdays game was pure entertainment. The GS was a true downer. Then our HR in the 9th a total shocker. Duffey was great in the 10th. And Polanco is on a tear right now. Larnach is in one those funks where he has stopped making contact. And it is now becoming a mental thing as well. 15 k's in last 26 AB's 8 k's in his last 10. Perhaps the ASG break can help him sort things out.

I still like our lineup. I don't like our pitching. I've given up trying to figure out what they will do next. What I do know is don't expect any great deals at the deadline.

[yeahyabetcha]

4 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

They mean something, but the majors is another level.  We see it with Larnach right now: young players need time to adjust and play through struggles.

I am open to where Gordon plays to get that chance, but if you are seriously suggesting he has to be a combo of two of baseball's alltime best shortstops just to play.....then we just aren't having a realistic conversation.

I was in no way serious with the comparisons to Cal or Ozzie.  I just find it unrealistic every time a guy has a little success , he should be immediately moved up and playing every day.  Regardless of who is ahead of him playing in the majors already.

[LA Vikes Fan]

Gordon's chance to play regularly hinges on whether the Twins trade Donaldson and/or Simmons. If they trade Donaldson, Arraez goes to 3B (with Miranda getting some time there as well), and Gordon is the IF UTL. If Simmons goes, Polanco is the SS, Arraez the 2B and Gordon the UTl,  and if Simmons and Donaldson go, Arraez is the 3B and Gordon can play SS or 2B.  The trade situation will tell us if Gordon will get a shot and how big that shot will be. 

[bean5302]

Honestly, I'm having a heck of a time understanding people being so utterly opposed to having Nick Gordon play shortstop if Simmons is traded. I've of the mindset that it'd be nice to know what the Twins have in their younger players, especially when the clocks have already been started and the expected major push to reduce the number of years MLB has control over players.

But, it seems I'm in the minority on this. Another year of a bit over replacement level play from Jorge Polanco at SS won't hurt the Twins this year since they're not going to be in the running for a playoff berth.

[Linus]

I too would love for Nick to get the second half at SS. No way to know for sure without giving him a chance. 

[Rosterman]

Gordon is the logjam player. The Twins have four outfielders, unless Kirilloff plays first base. The Gordon can maybe play. But with Cave coming back, that will also change.

 

The Twins have Arraez, Polanco and Simmons fighting for infield playing time. Arraez also becomes next in line to play the outfield if Kirilloff goes to first base. If Donaldson is down, or until Simmons is moved, there are no at bats. Astudillo ran into the similar situation when the Twins didn't need him catching, and Kirilloff became the second first baseman. A valuable bench guy is always needed who can play multiple positions to give you a choice on who else to move around. But for some reason, Rocco sits Gordon. Its tough to come in for one bat a game. He can be that pinch-runner the Twins so need for stealing a base. Right now, he is the emergency guy, offering more than any number of other folks could've for the season. 

 

At worst, he increases his value to be part of a trade if the Twins wish to push him out in that direction.

 

If Simmons and Donaldson would leave, who plays third. Gordon is still the spare infielder as one would hope the Twins might advance a certain prospect faster.

 

Gonna be an interesting rest of the month to see how the Twins roster comes together entering August 1.

[Gatormandd]

I think the Twins have already answered the big question "Can he be a big leaguer?" That answer is yes, even if it becomes an Adrianza-type role.  The next question "Can he be an everyday player?" I think can't be answered until he gets a lot of abs in AAA, at SS.  I think most people believe he can be a UT guy at 2B and the OF, but that just makes him Refsynder, who hits LH better, which is a better fit with the Twins LH-hitting ofs and Arraez.  It will be interesting to see who is left after the trade deadline, but I'd think the plan is for Gordon to get serious abs filling in for whoever departs.  If Cruz leaves, all sorts of platoons become possible, and Gordon should get a lot of playing time at 2B and OF.  If Simmons leaves, SS is a big hole, if both Cruz and SImmons go, then I think the Twins would want to play Gordon at SS vs RH, and let Arraez get his abs at 2b/3b, with Polanco playing 2b and SS .  Refsyders return fills in the gaps. Donaldson has 3b/DH, and Sano DH/CO as needed.  OF is Kirilloff, Kepler, Larnach, Kirilloff back to 1B when Buxton returns.  Garlick takes on the OF vs LH role, and that's the team.  I wonder when Garver returns if Jeffers goes down, to relearn how to hit RH in AAA.  Rotveldt is a solid defensive catcher, and can be a working backup C this aborted season, with Astudillo around if we need entertainment.  Short samples aren't conducive to conclusions, the players need abs, somewhere.  With Gordon's issues keeping his strength down, I'd like to see him get more of a chance to show what he has.  I wonder if his medical condition frustrated the Twins enough where he'll get sold off for too little too soon, and of course, he becomes real useful somewhere else.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

9 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Honestly, I'm having a heck of a time understanding people being so utterly opposed to having Nick Gordon play shortstop if Simmons is traded. I've of the mindset that it'd be nice to know what the Twins have in their younger players, especially when the clocks have already been started and the expected major push to reduce the number of years MLB has control over players.

But, it seems I'm in the minority on this. Another year of a bit over replacement level play from Jorge Polanco at SS won't hurt the Twins this year since they're not going to be in the running for a playoff berth.

We shouldn't conflate our knowledge of whether Gordon can play short with the organization's knowledge of whether Gordon can play short. They've had firsthand experience with him since 2017.

[TheLeviathan]

15 hours ago, yeahyabetcha said:

I was in no way serious with the comparisons to Cal or Ozzie.  I just find it unrealistic every time a guy has a little success , he should be immediately moved up and playing every day.  Regardless of who is ahead of him playing in the majors already.

On the flip side....why is there a rush to declare him a bench player when he was a top pick and a top prospect at various times in his development?

There are a lot of strawmen floating around in this thread and demanding he be Ozzie and Cal Ripkin (in jest or not) is a part of that.  It isn't ridiculous the Twins haven't been playing him, but it will be if they continue to sit him on the bench during a lost season.  At that point, send him down and play him every day at whatever position you want him at.  He can't get better (and might actually get worse) sitting day in and day out.  At the same time, given his pedigree, it isn't ridiculous to want to see what this kid has to offer.  

That's all I want: Let the team decide where he plays and give the kid regular playing time before the year is out.

[Dodecahedron]

The only logical reason Simmons was signed is that the Twins felt Gordon wasn't ready.  The Twins won't have the same opinion next year, and heck they probably no longer have that opinion now.  

[a-wan]

1 hour ago, Dodecahedron said:

The only logical reason Simmons was signed is that the Twins felt Gordon wasn't ready.  The Twins won't have the same opinion next year, and heck they probably no longer have that opinion now.  

No, they signed Simmons because Polanco isn't an everyday SS. Gordon would not have factored in one iota into the Simmons signing. Gordon was a border-line bust, who missed all of last year due to COVID.