POLL: Fire Baldelli?

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, Dodecahedron said:

I think the opposite view from yours is equally consistent.  

Record home run hitting offense masking a manager's flaws.  Take away the home runs or put him in the playoffs, his flaws show.  Consistent.

What you may be perceiving is that because his flaws were masked, only now are they becoming evident to people.  You are seeing a change in opinion, not inconsistency.

I guess it all depends on what you think his flaws are, right? Complaints I see/hear most often seem to be pitcher/bullpen management, following spreadsheets and not using in game intuition to make decisions (pitching and hitting), and lack of fire/too calm/not a leader.

Pitcher/Bullpen Management: Had a top 5ish pitching staff the last 2 years. I think it's inconsistent to say his current managing of the pitchers/bullpen is the reason for the failure of the pitching this year, but the success the last 2 years were masking his flaws. That idea suggests the Twins pitching staffs the last 2 years were just so incredibly talented that they overcame his failures. I don't think you'll find anybody, including the FO of the Twins, that would make that suggestion.

Following spreadsheets for lineup development and in game decisions: As far as pitching decisions see above. As far as lineup/pinch hitting decisions go I can see making the argument that an historic HR hitting team can cover up for those, but the argument that his decisions put those guys in the best possible situations to hit those HRs could also be made.

Lack of fire/too calm/not a leader: Really hard to define from outside the clubhouse. I do tend to lean towards some blame on Rocco for the lack of fundamentals as I link it to his "nothing is mandatory" rule when it comes to BP, infield work, etc. But as far as being a leader goes it's really hard to tell how the team responds to him without being in the clubhouse.

I'm an analytics guy and think it is a tool to be utilized. Shifts, hitter/pitcher matchups, and some other things should definitely come from numbers. It does feel like he leans on those sheets too often, though. I hate the constant changing of where guys hit in the lineup. The top 5 or 6 spots (at least), in my opinion, should be more or less the same everyday with the exception being for rest or injury days. I don't think managers have a huge affect on the game these days, and I'm not a big Rocco fan, but I don't think he's the, or a, leading contributor to this year being so awful. Certainly not blameless, but he's not my number 1 concern with this team.

[Dodecahedron]

Good points, but I think it's problematic to lump criticisms by multiple people into one view.  

I will say that I think it's a safe assumption that he is making decisions based too much on metrics/data/spreadsheets.  You say people assume he is doing this, but it's a logical assumption because he does not appear to be making decisions based on his eyes or common baseball knowledge.  If anything, this is the best possible assumption, as if this assumption isn't true, he's simply crazy.  Yes, his decisions are that bizarre.  I would rather believe he is following some faulty plan than to question his sanity.

And, by the way, if the issue is his mental health, I think the Twins should keep him and help him work on that.  

[Original_JB]

Going into this season, the Twins knew they would be playing their extra innings games starting out with a man on 2nd. "Bombas Squad" or not, logic would dictate that you would work very hard to get that run home, perhaps by laying a bunt down the 3rd base line.  From what I've seen on the field (and in extra innings), RB has apparently decided that either 'we don't bunt', or 'we can't bunt, and I'm not about to make my team learn how'. No, he doesn't pitch, catch, or hit, but IMO, he carries the 'persona' of the team, and if he ain't sweatin' it, nobody else is either.

[strumdatjag]

18 hours ago, notoriousgod71 said:

Wonder if Dougie wants to come back.

I voted against firing RB.  Still, Dougie Baseball would be a more entertaining manager.  Is Ozzie Guillen willing to give managing another try???

[cHawk]

20 hours ago, beckmt said:

He is too nice and needs to go.  We need a manager who can kick some butt, and holds players accountable.  He does neither.  

I need some evidence of this before I can get behind it.

[cHawk]

5 hours ago, Dodecahedron said:

Record home run hitting offense masking a manager's flaws.  Take away the home runs or put him in the playoffs, his flaws show.  Consistent.

When all of your players who shined in the regular season all of a sudden play well below replacement level it’s really hard to look good.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, Dodecahedron said:

Good points, but I think it's problematic to lump criticisms by multiple people into one view.  

I will say that I think it's a safe assumption that he is making decisions based too much on metrics/data/spreadsheets.  You say people assume he is doing this, but it's a logical assumption because he does not appear to be making decisions based on his eyes or common baseball knowledge.  If anything, this is the best possible assumption, as if this assumption isn't true, he's simply crazy.  Yes, his decisions are that bizarre.  I would rather believe he is following some faulty plan than to question his sanity.

And, by the way, if the issue is his mental health, I think the Twins should keep him and help him work on that.  

I think following the metrics/data/spreadsheets is "common baseball knowledge" in 2021. The average team makes many of their decisions that way. That's why the manager doesn't have a huge impact on the game these days. For example, the Twins get 5.0 innings per start out of their starters this year. League average is 5.1. The very top is 5.7 (Oakland). League average pitches per start for starting pitches is 84. The Twins average 84. Average number of games where the starter threw less than 80 pitches for the league is 26. The Twins have 25. Starts between 80 and 90 pitches from the starter? Average is 47, Twins have 47. 100-120 pitches? Average is 12, Twins with 11. That's about as common as you can get right there. 

That's why I don't put as much on him. He's following 2021 common baseball knowledge. Can certainly discuss the merits of 2021 common baseball knowledge, but pretty hard to argue he isn't following it. If the starters or pen were clearly better than the other you'd expect to see some variance there, but with everyone not named Berrios or Taylor being pretty awful at one point or another this year he's awfully limited on his choices. For what it's worth Berrios is averaging 5.9 innings a start. So he's not just following a cookie cutter set of rules.

[nicksaviking]

I don't know. It feels like if everyone starts getting fired, people will start knee-jerk calling for the pendulum to swing back in the opposite direction. I absolutely do not want some "old school", "anti-analytics" Gardy and Ryan types coming back. If they can change it up but still push toward being at the forefront of new ideas and innovation I'm OK with a switch. 

[Dodecahedron]

13 minutes ago, cHawk said:

When all of your players who shined in the regular season all of a sudden play well below replacement level it’s really hard to look good.

It was no secret that the baseball was going to be deadened this year.  This team did not adjust.  Some of us called this out before the season started:  If the Twins were not going to adjust to the new ball, and it appeared they did not, this was going to be a lost season.

Do you blame the players for following the approach they were told to follow?  

[Dodecahedron]

9 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I think following the metrics/data/spreadsheets is "common baseball knowledge" in 2021. The average team makes many of their decisions that way. That's why the manager doesn't have a huge impact on the game these days. For example, the Twins get 5.0 innings per start out of their starters this year. League average is 5.1. The very top is 5.7 (Oakland). League average pitches per start for starting pitches is 84. The Twins average 84. Average number of games where the starter threw less than 80 pitches for the league is 26. The Twins have 25. Starts between 80 and 90 pitches from the starter? Average is 47, Twins have 47. 100-120 pitches? Average is 12, Twins with 11. That's about as common as you can get right there. 

That's why I don't put as much on him. He's following 2021 common baseball knowledge. Can certainly discuss the merits of 2021 common baseball knowledge, but pretty hard to argue he isn't following it. If the starters or pen were clearly better than the other you'd expect to see some variance there, but with everyone not named Berrios or Taylor being pretty awful at one point or another this year he's awfully limited on his choices. For what it's worth Berrios is averaging 5.9 innings a start. So he's not just following a cookie cutter set of rules.

We disagree.  I stopped counting Baldelli's blunders that cost the Twins a game a long time ago, but it was over 5, and this was in April.

I mean, I suppose you can say a reliever cost you the game, or you can blame the person who put said reliever in the game when the matchup was all off.  I suppose you can blame the player for striking out during a pinch hit, or you can blame the person who put the guy in the game to pinch hit when his batting average was .120.  Both scenarios are possible, and it seems you are on the side of blaming the player.  I think that's rather crazy when it happens every day, but we just see differently.  A manager's job is to mitigate the crapfest and maximize the high points.  Baldelli isn't doing either, he's following a script that doesn't match what happens on the field.

[cHawk]

7 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

It was no secret that the baseball was going to be deadened this year.  This team did not adjust.  Some of this called this out before the season started:  If the Twins were not going to adjust to the new ball, and it appeared they did not, this was going to be a lost season.

Do you blame the players for following the approach they were told to follow?  

I was referring to win-and-in games, not the 2021 season. I was referring to the two Postseason Series under Baldelli.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Dodecahedron said:

We disagree.  I stopped counting Baldelli's blunders that cost the Twins a game a long time ago, but it was over 5, and this was in April.

I mean, I suppose you can say a reliever cost you the game, or you can blame the person who put said reliever in the game when the matchup was all off.  I suppose you can blame the player for striking out during a pinch hit, or you can blame the person who put the guy in the game when his batting average was .120.  Both scenarios are possible, and it seems you are on the side of blaming the player.  I think that's rather crazy when it happens every day, but we just see differently.

I'm not a huge Rocco fan, and wouldn't be upset if he was relieved of his duties at the end of the season, but I don't follow the logic of "entire team is failing, but if manager puts in different reliever with 12 ERA or hitter with .120 average the results would be better." All I'm saying is that to put all, or even a majority, of the blame on the manager for this debacle of a season while saying he had no part in the success the previous 2 years seems to be misguided at best. That argument is basically stating the team was so unbelievably talented the last 2 years they could make up for his blunders, but now, with largely the same makeup, they're so bad they can't overcome any of his blunders. Doesn't track for me. Especially if you're going off April when the reliever he was putting out there and watching get destroyed was one of the best relievers of the last 5+ years (Colome). So, yeah, I put far more on the players than the manager when the manager is following "common baseball knowledge."

[chpettit19]

9 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

We disagree.  I stopped counting Baldelli's blunders that cost the Twins a game a long time ago, but it was over 5, and this was in April.

I mean, I suppose you can say a reliever cost you the game, or you can blame the person who put said reliever in the game when the matchup was all off.  I suppose you can blame the player for striking out during a pinch hit, or you can blame the person who put the guy in the game to pinch hit when his batting average was .120.  Both scenarios are possible, and it seems you are on the side of blaming the player.  I think that's rather crazy when it happens every day, but we just see differently.  A manager's job is to mitigate the crapfest and maximize the high points.  Baldelli isn't doing either, he's following a script that doesn't match what happens on the field.

Not to mention that the argument of "the matchup was all off" goes directly against the complaint that he is just using the metrics/data/spreadsheets as those things he has have far more information about how good the matchup is than you or I will ever have.

[gunnarthor]

They should move on from him but they won't. I tend to think managers are overrated when it comes to winning but a bad manager can really hurt by making things go from bad to worse. I tend to think that's what he's doing. I don't think he shows a lot of confidence in players and that tends to filter to the players, making them uncomfortable or press. We've seen him over manage several games this season and make some pretty obvious mistakes, like when he had to pull Berrios early b/c of too many mound visits.

[Dodecahedron]

I think this is a good discussion.  I think you have well thought out opinions.  It's always interesting to me how it's possible to use the same premises to come to opposite conclusions.  

[Matthew Lenz]

The front office goes cheap in free agency and we look to blame the manager?

I don’t want the FO fired either but this is more a reflection on them than Baldelli. Hopefully they adjust their FA strategy moving forward.

[cHawk]

17 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

They should move on from him but they won't. I tend to think managers are overrated when it comes to winning but a bad manager can really hurt by making things go from bad to worse. I tend to think that's what he's doing. I don't think he shows a lot of confidence in players and that tends to filter to the players, making them uncomfortable or press. We've seen him over manage several games this season and make some pretty obvious mistakes, like when he had to pull Berrios early b/c of too many mound visits.

He has won two division titles. That doesn't make him a great manager, but that shows he has some level of competence and he's not the disaster many try to make him into. As for this season, it's one year. Seems negligent to say that this season is the rule whereas the previous two were the exception. If in 1-2 years, the Twins never come close to 2019 or 2020, then you'll have me convinced. But right now, you can't say that he got "lucky" in 2019-2020. You can't say that "the team was so incredibly talented that his mistakes didn't matter" and say for this year "the team isn't good enough to cover up his mistakes" when the core of the team this year is largely the same as the past two years.

[beckmt]

2 hours ago, cHawk said:

I need some evidence of this before I can get behind it.

He doesn't yank players for boneheaded plays, some like Rosario could not be fixed, but others need to learn the right way.  Also it is some of the veterans who trying to fire this club up.  Someone has to lead, he does not seem to. 

[Thegrin]

Maybe this Poll should be: Should we fire Falvine? 

[Nine of twelve]

6 hours ago, jjswol said:

You don't have an unexpected bad season like 2021 without someone paying the price and Falvey and Levine are safe for the time being. There has to be a "blood-letting" and Rocco is the logical suspect. The FO won't be fired, the players can't be fired so who do you have left?

Why does there have to be a "blood-letting"? IMHO that is not necessary.

[Vanimal46]

3 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

They should move on from him but they won't. I tend to think managers are overrated when it comes to winning but a bad manager can really hurt by making things go from bad to worse. I tend to think that's what he's doing. I don't think he shows a lot of confidence in players and that tends to filter to the players, making them uncomfortable or press. We've seen him over manage several games this season and make some pretty obvious mistakes, like when he had to pull Berrios early b/c of too many mound visits.

That doesn’t make sense to say a manager is over rated for successful teams and a detriment for lesser talented teams. Either they have an impact or they don’t. I don’t think they make a huge difference either way. It’s entirely dependent on the talent available each day.

Kaat brought up some good points last weekend when he was the analyst. The new rules are taking strategy out of their hands, not giving them more tools in their arsenal to make a difference in a game. 

[cHawk]

1 hour ago, Thegrin said:

Maybe this Poll should be: Should we fire Falvine? 

Firing Falvine after one disappointing season would be idiotic, IMO.

[Mike Sixel]

14 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

That doesn’t make sense to say a manager is over rated for successful teams and a detriment for lesser talented teams. Either they have an impact or they don’t. I don’t think they make a huge difference either way. It’s entirely dependent on the talent available each day.

Kaat brought up some good points last weekend when he was the analyst. The new rules are taking strategy out of their hands, not giving them more tools in their arsenal to make a difference in a game. 

If they had a bigger impact, they'd be paid A LOT more. A 5 WAR player is worth twenty five million.......If there is a manager that is worth 5 more wins than the next manager, they'd be paid A LOT more. 

[Nine of twelve]

23 hours ago, notoriousgod71 said:

Wonder if Dougie wants to come back.

I do not have the desire to invest the time to look up where I read this. It may have been here, it may have been elsewhere.

I do not recall for certain who told this story. I am pretty sure it was either LaTroy Hawkins, or Torii Hunter, or both, who related this. Moreover, I'm paraphrasing so don't ascribe what I'm saying directly to either man.

One of those two told about a Twins organization leader, I believe it was a minor league manager. One of the minor league teams often played what can be referred to as "black music" in the clubhouse, and apparently this was overwhelmingly approved or accepted by the players. ***Note: When I use that description of the music, it's simply to try to describe what is often referred to as rap, hip-hop, and similar styles. There is no judgmental intention and none should be inferred.*** Apparently this leader stated that this type of music would not be allowed in the clubhouse, and seemingly made this statement with some race-oriented overtones. This was relayed to Falvey, who said this was not acceptable, and very shortly afterward that person's employment with the team ended.

I am pretty sure that this incident occurred at about the same time Mientkiewicz's contract was not renewed. I have absolutely no evidence that he was the person implicated in the above story and nobody should take this as me implicating him. However, the timing was consistent and I am not aware of any other high-profile or even medium-profile leader being dismissed from the organization around that time. I am making an unsubstantiated guess that this person was Mientkiewicz. But no matter who it was, if this story is true I would want no part of that individual in an organization I was running.

I repeat for emphasis: I have no evidence that points to any particular person as the one Hawkins and/or Hunter referred to. I am simply guessing and nobody should take this as documented fact.

[USAFChief]

I didn't vote, and won't. I don't know if Rocco should be fired. But I do know this:

This is the worst MLB team I've ever seen at actually playing the game of baseball. Not talent. Not hitting, or pitching. Playing the game well. Throwing to the correct base. Hitting the cutoff man, who is in the proper position. Making heads up, smart defensive plays, running the bases properly. Advancing runners. Preventing opposing runners from advancing unnecessarily.  Etc etc.

Things good teams do that make a huge difference at any level, but particularly at the highest level where talent margins are pretty thin.

And I think a lot of that can be attributed to a manager.

[wsnydes]

9 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I didn't vote, and won't. I don't know if Rocco should be fired. But I do know this:

This is the worst MLB team I've ever seen at actually playing the game of baseball. Not talent. Not hitting, or pitching. Playing the game well. Throwing to the correct base. Hitting the cutoff man, who is in the proper position. Making heads up, smart defensive plays, running the bases properly. Advancing runners. Preventing opposing runners from advancing unnecessarily.  Etc etc.

Things good teams do that make a huge difference at any level, but particularly at the highest level where talent margins are pretty thin.

And I think a lot of that can be attributed to a manager.

This is interesting to me.  I haven't been able to watch many games, but only listen on the radio or follow via Gamecast, so it's more difficult for me to judge.  I've referred to the 2016 team as being the dumbest team I've ever seen.  If this team is giving the 2016 team a run for that title, then it's probably better that I can't watch them.

[chpettit19]

10 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I didn't vote, and won't. I don't know if Rocco should be fired. But I do know this:

This is the worst MLB team I've ever seen at actually playing the game of baseball. Not talent. Not hitting, or pitching. Playing the game well. Throwing to the correct base. Hitting the cutoff man, who is in the proper position. Making heads up, smart defensive plays, running the bases properly. Advancing runners. Preventing opposing runners from advancing unnecessarily.  Etc etc.

Things good teams do that make a huge difference at any level, but particularly at the highest level where talent margins are pretty thin.

And I think a lot of that can be attributed to a manager.

I don't know if it's the worst team I've ever seen at these things, but it is certainly bad. And Rocco's "nothing is mandatory" rule when it comes to infield practice, BP, whatever else is something I've questioned. I questioned whether they did pitcher fielding practice during spring training because of how brutal and confused the pitchers looked when trying to field their position. Even last night when Sano tried going to 3rd on a grounder in front of him I said to my buddies that I can handle an untalented Twins team getting smacked nightly, but the way this team loses has very little to do with talent (pitching has some talent/performance issues this year) and a lot to do with playing undisciplined, sloppy baseball and it's awful to watch.

That being said, I'm not sure how much to put on the manager and how much is an organizational problem. By the time a player gets to the majors they should know the fundamentals and be able to perform them without thinking. I think the manager and big league staff need to continue to preach them and make sure the team stays sharp, but I wouldn't put it all on the manager. This season seems to be out of the norm from the last couple when it comes to the amount of "mental errors" and I'm starting to question the organizational approach to preparing for the season and staying sharp. 

These "little things" are what win, and lose, games in the playoffs when the talent is much more balanced and you have to bring your A game every night. I mean the Dodgers cost themselves a world series game with a terrible last play of the game. Luckily for them it didn't cost them the series, but they were also the most talented team in baseball and could make up for it. I won't complain about a guy getting caught looking, a pitcher giving up a bomb, or a fielder booting a ball every now and then, but mental errors from multiple guys every night is unacceptable from a group of professional athletes making a combined 130+ million dollars. I don't know if it's Rocco or the FO or what, but I'd think it's certainly within the manager's job description to ensure his team is mentally prepared to play every day and put processes in place to limit the number of fundamental mistakes the team makes.

[nicksaviking]

11 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I didn't vote, and won't. I don't know if Rocco should be fired. But I do know this:

This is the worst MLB team I've ever seen at actually playing the game of baseball. Not talent. Not hitting, or pitching. Playing the game well. Throwing to the correct base. Hitting the cutoff man, who is in the proper position. Making heads up, smart defensive plays, running the bases properly. Advancing runners. Preventing opposing runners from advancing unnecessarily.  Etc etc.

Things good teams do that make a huge difference at any level, but particularly at the highest level where talent margins are pretty thin.

And I think a lot of that can be attributed to a manager.

I agree with this. I'm also very disappointed in the significant regression of Kepler, Polanco and Sano; three players who seem talented enough to fix, but still seem to be waiting in line at the shop going on two years now. 

I'd concede that this might be more of an issue with the entirety of the coaching staff.

[Dodecahedron]

17 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Not to mention that the argument of "the matchup was all off" goes directly against the complaint that he is just using the metrics/data/spreadsheets as those things he has have far more information about how good the matchup is than you or I will ever have.

I think you might just be looking for things to say.  I already said we simply disagree, so it's OK to stop.

[chpettit19]

14 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

I think you might just be looking for things to say.  I already said we simply disagree, so it's OK to stop.

I posted that a minute after my last post to you yesterday as I'd forgotten to put it in that post. So, don't worry, I did stop. But thanks for permission.