Cleveland MLB team reportedly considering name change

[Nine of twelve]

 

 I never understood ND changing their name from the Fighting Sioux because I always thought they were paying homage to the proud Sioux Nation who roamed the plains as their home. Maybe my perspective was wrong, but I'm asking here.
 

I should have expanded a bit on my previous response to this post.

 

Is choosing Fighting Sioux as the sports mascot for a school really a good way to pay homage? It seems to me that if paying homage was truly what the school wanted to do there would have been a concerted effort to learn and thoughtfully present the history and lives of people of the Sioux Nation. It seems to me that a proud people, as you called them, would probably have felt hurt and demeaned to have been reduced to a caricature at football and hockey games.

[IndianaTwin]

 

To help modernize it, it should be Spyders. 

 

I’m thinking SPYders would be a better name for Houston. 

[Shaitan]

 

Let us be 100% honest here. Until a few years ago, as sports fans, none of us really considered the Washington Redskins as being offensive. It was just the name of a pro football team. In fact, professionally speaking, they had a proud heritage and a pretty majestic looking mascot. I doubt any insult was originally intended. Reflection now tells us innocuous intent does not equal reality with a renewed consciousness and perspective.

 

No. Most teams got rid of similar names in the 1980s or earlier. Which is nearly 40 years ago. More than a generation ago.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Let us be 100% honest here. Until a few years ago, as sports fans, none of us really considered the Washington Redskins as being offensive. It was just the name of a pro football team. In fact, professionally speaking, they had a proud heritage and a pretty majestic looking mascot. I doubt any insult was originally intended. Reflection now tells us innocuous intent does not equal reality with a renewed consciousness and perspective.

A hundred percent honest? None of us, really? Which is it? I knew the R-word was bad word since growing up in Farmington NM 30 years ago when it would be used among the construction workers my dad worked with.  I saw him cringe; I saw the way he looked at me that said don't say that word.  Maybe you didn't know, but ain't that white privilege for you. 

 

Offense isn't really the issue, Doc.  It's that we name sports teams after an ethnic group.  It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative.  What other current ethnic group do we deem mascot worthy? You're literally talking about First Nation people as if they no longer exist.  Imagine growing up Sioux and seeing the only representation of you as Fighting (not as doctor or lawyer, but infantry) and none of you on the damn team?  It's just that bad. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Am I rambling a bit the way I'm known to? Absolutely! But if you aren't paying attention then shame on you. Change for the sake of change means NOTHING. If "indians" is offensive, change it. I get it. I like the Rock angle. But before we re-write everything and knee jerk, can we at least converse and learn and gain perspective?

Good god. Do any of you seriously think names are being changed just the sake of change?

Doc, pick a side here. You literally wrote a dozen paragraphs, said little, but then basically declared your position that you think people are possibly changing a name in a knee-jerk reaction.
 

Think about that for a second. People have been calling for a name change in Cleveland for two decades but it's a knee-jerk reaction?

 

Where is the knee jerk reaction?

 

(it's not them, it's you, and you should probably think about why)

[Brock Beauchamp]

Instead of thinking about whether your mascot, name, or whatever, is defensible, think about why you need to defend it and why.

 

Why would I defend a name like the Twins? What emotional investment do I have in that name beyond its literal name?

None.

 

I'm invested in the Minnesota team that plays baseball. 

 

Now change that name "Twins" to "Redskins" or "Indians".

My investment is not in the name, it's in the city, the franchise, and the history.

Change the ****ing name of these teams because they're ****ing racist. I'm a grown ass adult and can deal with it. 

 

Instead of thinking about how much a name change might insult your weird historical investment in a team, think instead of how much it sucks for everyone who isn't you to see a team name and feel ridiculed every time you see it.

 

Inclusion over "history".

[Squirrel]

Am I rambling a bit the way I'm known to? Absolutely! But if you aren't paying attention then shame on you. Change for the sake of change means NOTHING. If "indians" is offensive, change it. I get it. I like the Rock angle. But before we re-write everything and knee jerk, can we at least converse and learn and gain perspective?

I’m with Brock here. Nothing is being changed for the sake of change (if Cleveland even goes through with it). And this is not knee jerk because these discussions have been ongoing for as long as I can remember. And Cleveland’s announcement was that they will be discussing it, so it’s not exactly this out of the blue ‘We’re changing it.’ And, remember, they phased out the Chief Wahoo logo a couple years ago, so this change is already underway incrementally. This just isn’t a new thing. And there are a lot of people on this site who refuse to say ‘Indians’ or ‘Redskins’ when discussing these teams; they say Cleveland or Washington to avoid it. Perhaps these names are meaningless to you and to many, maybe some are just ambivalent or don’t care, but it does mean something to many. Do you recall the protests at the Dome in ‘91 over the chop? (And please, everyone, let’s not sidetrack down that discussion wormhole.) And what exactly is being rewritten by changing a name? Lots of teams through the years have changed their names, usually when a franchise moves, but still, sports team names have changed. A rose will still smell as sweet ... Perhaps think of it as re-righting things vs rewriting.

[Craig Arko]

For once I’m grateful for Golden Gophers.

[gunnarthor]

It's about time this happened.

[nicksaviking]

Disagree that people weren’t offended by these names until a couple years ago.

 

Disagree that any of these names were picked to honor anyone.

 

At what point in our history did changing a team name become such a crisis level event? Teams used to change names ALL the time. Most of the original AL/NL teams had different names, all the pro sports used to flip names regularly. Frankly, with all the hype it will bring and all the new merchandise that will be sold, I’m surprised losing, stale teams don’t do it more often.

[adjacent]

Let be honest here. For most teams the decision to change a name is a marketing decision. I am skeptical that the owner of the redskins woke up one morning and said: "Gee, our name is racist, we should change it" after resisting name changes for decades. Second, if you want to honor Native americans, what if you call the leaders of the Native American nation closest to you and say: We want to choose a name, to honor you, what name you consider appropriate? As far as I know, that has not been done. And for any name, the first thing you do is talk with the people involved. 

[Squirrel]

 

Let be honest here. For most teams the decision to change a name is a marketing decision. I am skeptical that the owner of the redskins woke up one morning and said: "Gee, our name is racist, we should change it" after resisting name changes for decades. Second, if you want to honor Native americans, what if you call the leaders of the Native American nation closest to you and say: We want to choose a name, to honor you, what name you consider appropriate? As far as I know, that has not been done. And for any name, the first thing you do is talk with the people involved. 

 

You know ... that's just a thoughtful and sensible approach.

 

And yeah, it will be a marketing decision, probably, but maybe there will be some thought of 'right vs wrong' in there somewhere, too. Because I think right now, more people (finally?) care about it, so there is some pressure to do so.

 

But I wonder how thorough the marketing decision was for the Fort Myers Miracle to change the name of the team to the Mighty Mussels ... particularly with some of the logo design. (Okay ... another discussion we don't need to get into, but, it does illustrate a point I made above ... teams do change their names for various reasons.)

[Nine of twelve]

 

Let us be 100% honest here. Until a few years ago, as sports fans, none of us really considered the Washington Redskins as being offensive.

I did a very small amount of online research to try to establish a timeline on name and mascot changes.

 

1969 - Students at Dartmouth College began promoting a team name change from "Indians". The change was made official in 1974.

1970 - University of Oklahoma retires "Little Red" mascot.

1971 - Marquette University abandons "Willie Wampum" mascot. The team name was changed from "Warriors" to "Golden Eagles" in 1994.

1972 - Stanford University drops "Indians" nickname and logo.

1972 - Dickinson (N.D.) State changed its nickname from "Savages" to "Blue Hawks".

 

These are only the very earliest examples I found, and nickname/mascot changes became much more widespread not long afterward. Here in Minnesota, the State Board of Education passed a resolution in 1988 encouraging all school districts to remove Indian-related mascots.

 

With all due respect, I find it impossible to believe that anyone who pays even casual attention to sports did not know that such nicknames were considered offensive "until a few years ago". 

[notoriousgod71]

A woman I used to work with grew up in Pekin, IL where they were known as the Chinks.

 

True story.

[Squirrel]

 

A woman I used to work with grew up in Pekin, IL where they were known as the Chinks.

 

True story.

 

And their name was changed in 1981 ... they are now the Pekin Dragons.

[h2oface]

I have always had big problems with The Redskins. I think the logo trademark mascot was offensive that the Indians used for a long time. But Indians? I grew up in the Black Hills, and remember Russell Means and AIM naming themselves the American Indian Movement. I don't see it as a slur, or the Braves, or the Warriors of Sioux Falls Washington High School I went to. I don't like the tomahawk chop and call the fans do (a false stereotype). I don't mind Florida State being the Seminoles, or using particular tribal names, as it seems like in honor of them. I think there should be care to represent the logo pic, and not ever have it be a caricature that is offensive. I have attended many tribal celebrations, and they always include traditional extravagant dress and dances. So I don't get the uproar about Indians. But I'm listening. Maybe I am part of the problem. I don't mind it changing either. I just don't see how it is grouped with the Redskins, at all. 

 

Are Trojan ancestors upset? Do pirates care about Pirates and Buccaneers? And the Cavalier the University of Virginia uses is pretty weird as a mascot, and what is a cavalier, anyway. Can one only name a team an animal or fish or bird or insect (etc) now? 

[h2oface]

 

The Cleveland Native Americans... sarc/

 I see the sarc, and this is just a note.....most of the "native americans" I know don't really consider that a proper reference, but one made up by others again, and they prefer the tribal names.

[PseudoSABR]

 

But I'm listening. Maybe I am part of the problem. I don't mind it changing either. I just don't see how it is grouped with the Redskins, at all. 

 

Are Trojan ancestors upset? Do pirates care about Pirates and Buccaneers? And the Cavalier the University of Virginia uses is pretty weird as a mascot, and what is a cavalier, anyway. Can one only name a team an animal or fish or bird or insect (etc) now? 

Thanks for acknowledging the possibility that you may be part of the problem and willing to listen.

 

The problem is this: naming a mascot after a now-living ethnic group--we don't do this to any group except First Nations people. Troy is long gone. So are the Vikings.  The Pirates are not an ethnic group.  Cavalier is type of mounted soldier, again not an ethnic group.  The tribes that many many of these names derive from still exist, and their people are largely marginalized and are non-represented in major sports and universities.  Their names, even in a positive light, shouldn't be white American's play things.   

[biggentleben]

I've said this in a few different places, and I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself on this for anyone.

 

My wife and I adopted four children that each has some level of Sioux blood in their veins. As part of that, and because I've always had a fondness for the Sioux culture, my wife and I reached out to connections through foster care and previous employment to discuss ways to assist our children in understanding and knowing their culture. Already, they've each faced comments in school (my children are ages 5-8) that I never knew existed, which absolutely breaks my heart.

 

One particular tribal chief knew of my baseball writing and got onto the topic of sports teams with me once. I asked him about changing names, including the names of teams like the Braves and Chiefs, which aren't considered inherently "racist" by "woke" non-Native people. While I'm quoting this, it's generally paraphrased, but his response was this:

 

"The Sioux and all other tribes in these lands have seen treaties broken, their women raped, their children brutally murdered, sacred lands stolen and desecrated, and all of this brushed off as 'manifest destiny.' Then, when naming a sports franchise came along, in order to sell ball caps and t-shirts, they put a picture of the most grotesque version of an Indian that they can think of and use some nomenclature they use to describe our people in order to sell all those things."

 

"Changing those names is like an ice cube off the side of the peak of the Titanic of the glacial iceberg of things that have been done wrong to my people. There are much more important things for me to fight for, but if someone else puts in the time and the effort to get that ice cube chipped away, I will support it."

 

I have been a fan of changing the Braves' name ever since that conversation...and I've been a Braves fan my entire life. Let's just say that I'm not popular among Braves fans for that take.

[Channing1964]

i dont really care what they change their name to. Im just glad we dont have to change ours.

[Dantes929]

In an odd twist St. Mary's of Winona used to be called the Redmen.   The name originally had nothing at all to do with native americans but eventually the image and mascot appeared.   When a native american group asked them to change over 30 years ago they did.     In a similar way I have always wondered how a town name like Savage can continue to exist.   Turns out it was named after some guy named Savage.  If any team should be allowed to have the Indian name it would be Shakopee since presumably the tribe would  have influence over the images and narrative but even they changed names.     In my book its ok for anyone to not be offended but biggentleben's 4th paragraph above kind of explains it all on why it would be offensive to many and should therefore be removed.    Not being offensive to me personally (or to any other one person) should not be the standard for keeping a name.

[h2oface]

 

Thanks for acknowledging the possibility that you may be part of the problem and willing to listen.

 

The problem is this: naming a mascot after a now-living ethnic group--we don't do this to any group except First Nations people. Troy is long gone. So are the Vikings.  The Pirates are not an ethnic group.  Cavalier is type of mounted soldier, again not an ethnic group.  The tribes that many many of these names derive from still exist, and their people are largely marginalized and are non-represented in major sports and universities.  Their names, even in a positive light, shouldn't be white American's play things.   

 

I wonder if the Celtics are getting pressured.

 

"Today, the term Celtic generally refers to the languages and respective cultures of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, the Isle of Man, and Brittany, also known as the Celtic nations. These are the regions where four Celtic languages are still spoken to some extent as mother tongues."

[Dantes929]

 

Thanks for acknowledging the possibility that you may be part of the problem and willing to listen.

 

The problem is this: naming a mascot after a now-living ethnic group--we don't do this to any group except First Nations people. Troy is long gone. So are the Vikings.  The Pirates are not an ethnic group.  Cavalier is type of mounted soldier, again not an ethnic group.  The tribes that many many of these names derive from still exist, and their people are largely marginalized and are non-represented in major sports and universities.  Their names, even in a positive light, shouldn't be white American's play things.   

Fighting Irish?   Difference maybe giving the name to themselves when they had a team and school full of Irish Catholics.     Just looking at a list of team names.   Marlins, Brewers, Twins, Rangers, Astros  Rockies and Mariners all have pretty good names that relate to their area and appear to have had some thought put into them.  

[nicksaviking]

 

I wonder if the Celtics are getting pressured.

 

"Today, the term Celtic generally refers to the languages and respective cultures of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, the Isle of Man, and Brittany, also known as the Celtic nations. These are the regions where four Celtic languages are still spoken to some extent as mother tongues."

 

Well just like The University of Notre Dame, the team was founded by and created for people of Irish descent. Unlike the Native American team names, those truly were created to represent the make-up of their markets. The Irish are to Boston what Norwegians are to Minnesota.

 

[RedBull34]

 

I've said this in a few different places, and I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself on this for anyone.

 

My wife and I adopted four children that each has some level of Sioux blood in their veins. As part of that, and because I've always had a fondness for the Sioux culture, my wife and I reached out to connections through foster care and previous employment to discuss ways to assist our children in understanding and knowing their culture. Already, they've each faced comments in school (my children are ages 5-8) that I never knew existed, which absolutely breaks my heart.

 

One particular tribal chief knew of my baseball writing and got onto the topic of sports teams with me once. I asked him about changing names, including the names of teams like the Braves and Chiefs, which aren't considered inherently "racist" by "woke" non-Native people. While I'm quoting this, it's generally paraphrased, but his response was this:

 

"The Sioux and all other tribes in these lands have seen treaties broken, their women raped, their children brutally murdered, sacred lands stolen and desecrated, and all of this brushed off as 'manifest destiny.' Then, when naming a sports franchise came along, in order to sell ball caps and t-shirts, they put a picture of the most grotesque version of an Indian that they can think of and use some nomenclature they use to describe our people in order to sell all those things."

 

"Changing those names is like an ice cube off the side of the peak of the Titanic of the glacial iceberg of things that have been done wrong to my people. There are much more important things for me to fight for, but if someone else puts in the time and the effort to get that ice cube chipped away, I will support it."

 

I have been a fan of changing the Braves' name ever since that conversation...and I've been a Braves fan my entire life. Let's just say that I'm not popular among Braves fans for that take.

I taught for a year out on the Three Affiliated Tribes (Fort Berthold) Reservation.  When I started there I exclusively used the term Native American and they laughed at me.  They preferred the term Indians.

 

It was a bit odd to me, but they would wear Braves, Chiefs, etc. headgear.  I don't recall seeing any Chief Wahoo though.

 

I do recall them not being a fan of the Washington Redskins name or gear, and they were pretty vocal about that one.

 

Most of the students and adults seemed to defer to the Sioux tribes opinions about UND's name though, as most of them didn't identify as Sioux.  I assume that the same would hold true for other specific tribal names such as the Seminoles and Aztecs.

 

My Take: Chief Wahoo was definitely bad, and Washington should definitely change their name.  The specific tribal names should be left to the tribes.  

 

IDK about the generic names like Braves, Chiefs, and Indians though.  IDK the percentages across the board, but I can anecdotally say that the students I had seemed to view those more as homages then insults.  There might be better information I'm missing and I'm welcome to hear it.

[RedBull34]

 

A woman I used to work with grew up in Pekin, IL where they were known as the Chinks.

 

True story.

Is that one as black and white as it appears?  It's so blatant.  Or is there a reference to something I'm missing?

 

That's really bad.

[Squirrel]

 

Is that one as black and white as it appears?  It's so blatant.  Or is there a reference to something I'm missing?

 

That's really bad.

 

I googled it and found this: https://ccamuseum.org/2018/04/28/1981-the-pekin-chinks-high-school-team-becomes-the-pekin-dragons/

 

That was the first of a long list of in the search results. The name was changed in 1981. And yes, it was as bad and blatant as it sounds. I think at the time they came up with it, no one thought it was bad, that it was somehow an homage, as these things usually go. But yes, it was a racial slur toward Chinese people, not, say, as in a chink in your armour. It was bad.

[Doctor Gast]

 

The quote is funny and appreciated. But it's also why I made the post I did. I'm asking questions for honest dialogue.

I agree w/ Doc, I have a lot of Native American friends that aren`t offended by the Indian names of sports teams. But that`s not to say that it isn`t to others, that said I think that a real survey should be taken by real Native Americans (not by white university professors) & the results should be taken seriously & every disputed team should change their names if which would be deemed offensive. I have Viking ancestory & I`m not offended by our football team even though the vikings were very barbaric & did horrific things

[Doctor Gast]

Though I`m a very diehard Twin fan, I`d like to see our baseball team change their name. Twins name came from Cal Griffin & "Twinkies"  to me is offensive. I`d prefer the name "Lumberjacks" or "Bombers" 

[ashbury]

Though I`m a very diehard Twin fan, I`d like to see our baseball team change their name. Twins name came from Cal Griffin & "Twinkies"  to me is offensive. I`d prefer the name "Lumberjacks" or "Bombers" 

See, it's this kind of strawman argument, even meant humorously, that sets people's teeth on edge. It amounts to trivializing actual offense.