César Tovar and the Twins Hall Of Fame

[Tom Froemming]

César Tovar has started to pick up a lot of support for the Twins Hall of Fame, but he fell short of being elected again this year. In this video, I talk about some reasons why Tovar hasn't got in yet, how the system is working against players from his era and my argument for why he deserves to be enshrined in the team's hall of fame.

 

 

Tovar was before my time, so I did not get to see him play. I also don't exactly consider myself a Twins history buff, so I'd love to hear any of your memories from Tovar's playing days, the 1969-70 Twins and any thoughts you have on whether or not he should be in the Twins Hall of Fame.

[Linus]

Great player that could do it all. Definitely should be in the Twins hall. As a kid I loved Bob Casey’s batting intro. Now batting, playing (insert position because he played many) number 12 CEsar TOvar

[Brock Beauchamp]

If you look at the numbers, Gaetti should get in at the same time as Tovar. The two players were basically worth 25 WAR during their Twins career.

 

And if you compare postseason records, it's hard to argue with Gaetti helping win a championship while hitting for over a .900 OPS in the 87 postseason.

[dbminn]

From 1968-1972, Tovar racked up 16.8 WAR, or an average of 3.3 WAR per year. But it's not a Hall of WAR, its a Hall of Fame. In 1968, he played five positions about the same amount of games. In 1969, he split time between 2B, 3B, LF and CF. And if you like WAR, he was a 4 WAR player both seasons. Name another player on the Twins who has done that.

 

In 1970, he played LF. In 1971, he was in CF. Both seasons, he was above average. He was incredibly important to the team. He played with flair. You like Arraez? Imagine hitting almost as well over several years and doing it at most of the positions on the field. He should be in the Twins Hall of Fame.  

 

 

[big dog]

And as Linus says, I can't read his name without hearing Bob Casey's thunderous intro rattling through my head.  I think the correct spelling is actually

 

CEEEzar  TOOOOOEvar

 

I mean, if I can still hear his intro in my head 50 years later, isn't that what the Twins Hall of Fame is all about?  I say he's in.

[Doctor Gast]

Most definitely! He did everything that was mentioned, hit, steal bases, score runs, hit w/ runners on, play everywhere plus he did everything to get on base, I remembered him always leaning to get hit by a pitch just to get on base, to help win a game. He must`ve had a high OBP

[TopGunn#22]

Tovar is one of my all time favorite Twins. His nickname was "Pepe."   Everyone posting here has already made the case for why he should be in there. He was a little sparkplug/Swiss Army Knife of a player.  He had flair and charisma.  As a kid growing up, Tony Oliva was "MY GUY."  But Tovar will always hold a special place.  I agree with the comment that Gaetti should go in as well.  I'm not pushing to put EVERYBODY in and make the Twins HOF meaningless.  But Tovar belongs.  

[mikelink45]

I loved Tovar, he was the Marwin Gonzales of his time, except we was valuable as the CF.  I would say that for many of us from that era, Tovar was our favorite.  I looked forward to all his ABs and I was confident in him both in the field and at bat.  In many ways he held out team together.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/fb4be4bb

 

The 9 position game was a gift to him, a recognition that he could do it all and not just a gimmick.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTR3A4vIrug

 

Yes he belongs!

[nicksaviking]

I can see why he doesn't stack up based on currently used statistics, but if you weren't sure what his contemporaries thought of him just notice the five consecutive years he received AL MVP votes. Sounds worthy enough for me.

 

Though upon second look, he has a 3.39 FIP and 25% strikeout rate. Maybe modern statistics DO support his case as well.

[Number3]

Unfortunately, Jack if all trades, master of none is not great for recognition. Definitely helps a baseball team. There should be a category simply as "ball player". Should be in. By the way, great off season thread.

[Dantes929]

 

If you look at the numbers, Gaetti should get in at the same time as Tovar. The two players were basically worth 25 WAR during their Twins career.

 

And if you compare postseason records, it's hard to argue with Gaetti helping win a championship while hitting for over a .900 OPS in the 87 postseason.

 

Tovar is one of my all time favorite Twins. His nickname was "Pepe."   Everyone posting here has already made the case for why he should be in there. He was a little sparkplug/Swiss Army Knife of a player.  He had flair and charisma.  As a kid growing up, Tony Oliva was "MY GUY."  But Tovar will always hold a special place.  I agree with the comment that Gaetti should go in as well.  I'm not pushing to put EVERYBODY in and make the Twins HOF meaningless.  But Tovar belongs.  

You guys are funny.   Gaetti is already in the Twins HOF.    Tovar was one of my favorites of that era after Killebrew, Oliva and Carew.     Put him in alongside Shane Mack.

[Strato Guy]

Cesar was a fun player to watch. One thing that sticks out for me, other than what has already been stated, was his ability to get rid of the ball in the outfield. He had a weak arm playing OF, but he could get rid of the ball faster than anyone I have ever seen! 

[jjswol]

Tom, Very impressive presentation on why Tovar belongs in the Twins HOF. I was lucky enough to have watched Tovar play and he is certainly one of the Minnesota Twins "forgotten" players. I have been pushing to get him in the Twins HOF for years but with no success so far. I was hoping to get him in through "fan" voting but now I have found out that the fan voting for the Twins HOF is basically a sham. I started to write an article on twinstrivia.com about this yesterday and hope to have it done in the next day or two. Thanks for helping spread the word about Cesar Tovar.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You guys are funny.   Gaetti is already in the Twins HOF.    Tovar was one of my favorites of that era after Killebrew, Oliva and Carew.     Put him in alongside Shane Mack.

Gaetti made the Twins HoF? When the hell did that happen and how did I miss it?

[Dantes929]

 

Gaetti made the Twins HoF? When the hell did that happen and how did I miss it?

lol.   You probably looked it up yourself by now but 2007 was the year.

[jkcarew]

Great piece.

 

Talk about position flexibility.  And his speed gave him average to above-average range no matter where you put him. 

 

Super fun to watch...he was often a favorite of fans, in an era when their favorite could have been Killebrew, Oliva, or Carew. Pepe played with more personality than any of those greats did. Also played in an era when durability and availability meant much more than it does to today's fans and analysts. If you're even 5% better than your replacement, you should be out there every day. Look at his counting stats. Look at his games played.

 

Nick, in his previous post hit the nail on the head...'67-'71...5 consecutive years of being in the top 25 in MVP voting. At least one time in that stretch he finished higher in the MVP voting than a healthy Carew, a healthy Oliva, or a healthy Killebrew. He finished ahead of a healthy Carew three times in that stretch. And remember the quality of the teams in that era. They deserve to have more members than any other era (with the arguable exception of the Puckett era).

[CharlieDee]

If you ask any of the "old timers" who were fortunate enough to see and hear him play for the Twins, there is no doubt that Mr. Tovar deserves a place in the Twins HOF.

[jkcarew]

Tom, you ask for thoughts memories on the 69-70 seasons...

 

I'm surprised I haven't seen anything drawing the parallels between 1969 and 2019...50 years later.

In 1969 the Twins dominated a weak division and got crushed by a much superior team in the playoffs. The primary difference between the Orioles and Twins was starting pitching. After being one of the top 2-3 most potent offenses the entire year, the Twins scored a total of 5 runs in three straight losses. Baltimore won 109 games in '69, then relaxed in '70 and only won 108. (There's a reason they call the '69 Mets the Miracle Mets.)

 

That's the bad part. The good part is that both the '69 and '19 Twins team were a ton of fun to follow and loaded with guys that could hit. But the names Palmer, Quellar, and McNally still make my skin crawl.

[chinmusic]

I had forgotten that Tovar passed away so young. He really was a hit machine for a number of years, and I too think he belongs in the Twins HOF.  Would've driven Ozzie Guillen nuts had he played in the "piranha" years!

[Tom Froemming]

Thanks everybody for your memories, anecdotes and information. All good stuff, but this struck me as a really great way to explain things to someone with a grasp on the current Twins who's not at all familiar with Tovar:

 

You like Arraez? Imagine hitting almost as well over several years and doing it at most of the positions on the field.

 

I would just like to add that it seems to me like the Twins Hall of Fame was established specifically to recognize guys just like Tovar. The excellent complimentary players. You have statues and retired numbers for the absolute cream of the crop. Those guys all should be in the team Hall of Fame, of course, but why create this wing to recognize a wider scope of your history if you're only going to add guys to it who were playing so recently they can barely even be considered history!?

 

Morneau is a deserving addition, for sure, but the guy's only 38-years-old for cripes sake! He was still active as recently as 2016, and his Twins career ended in 2013. Does recognizing a player who's only been out of your organization for less than seven years really accomplish your goal of telling the history of your franchise? I suppose there are some 11-year-olds out there that need to be reminded of the greatness of Justin Morneau.

 

I guess I'm not sure what the specific mission statement of the Twins Hall of Fame is, but it feels to me like they need to rethink this entire process. 

[OBX 3 6 28 29 34]

I remember how disruptive he was on the basepaths, along with Rodney of course. Remember the game in 1969 when Tovar and Carew both stole home in the same inning on the Tigers? They stole 5 bases that inning.  I included the link below but, before I go, here's what it says on the back of his 1970 Topps card that I am holding in my hand: "Batting champ of the Carolina League in 1962, Cesar plays well at six positions. A perfect leadoff man, Cesar very seldom strikes out, and is a good baserunner."

 

http://www.espn.com/classic/s/moment010518carew.html

 

They were fun to watch!

 

 

[Rich]

 

César Tovar has started to pick up a lot of support for the Twins Hall of Fame, but he fell short of being elected again this year. In this video, I talk about some reasons why Tovar hasn't got in yet, how the system is working against players from his era and my argument for why he deserves to be enshrined in the team's hall of fame.

 

 

Tovar was before my time, so I did not get to see him play. I also don't exactly consider myself a Twins history buff, so I'd love to hear any of your memories from Tovar's playing days, the 1969-70 Twins and any thoughts you have on whether or not he should be in the Twins Hall of Fame.

 

Cesar Tovar played all the infield positions as well as the outfield and was very useful to the Twins. He was also a good base runner ranking 7th on the Twins all time steals list with 186 during his career according to mlb.com. His hitting was light with a OPS of .714 which put him at 55 on the all time Twins list. Based on his stats I wouldn't vote for his hall of fame entry. Subjective qualities may bring him up on the list as well as more advanced stats.  

 

[Tovar12]

I'm all for it!   As a kid I idolized him.  My jersey number for sports was always number 12.

[Ben Noble]

 

I guess I'm not sure what the specific mission statement of the Twins Hall of Fame is, but it feels to me like they need to rethink this entire process. 

 

Agreed. A full one-third of the members of the Twins Hall of Fame never even played for the team, unless you count Tom Kelly's 49 games in 1975, and that ratio doesn't sit right with me.

 

I'm not knocking the contributions of guys like George Brophy, Tom Mee or Jim Rantz, but if there's room for those guys then I think there should be room for players like Tovar.