SI on Joe Mauer

[Platoon]

https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/09/25/joe-mauer-minnesota-twins

 

I lifted this link from a Michael Rand column. I haven't saw it posted here yet so I thought I would toss it out there. Some guy named Gleeman is quoted extensively, as well as others who can't seem to see past Mauers contract. My personal opinion is that Mauers contract is so far down the list of things that have caused the Twins their dismal decade, it doesn't even make the top ten. Nor have I ever tossed and turned at 3 am wondering whether the Pohlads would be able to scrape by until Joe retired and his contract was off their P&L.

[nicksaviking]

I agree, there are valid reasons to criticize Mauer (though I don't think any are worth much anger) but his contract isn't one of them. Last year was the only year the team even approached an uncomfortable payroll and even that didn't stop them from chasing bigger names. If on the unlikely chance that Mauer's contract kept them from offering Darvish a $20M higher winning bid, well then I guess they got lucky on that front. Full disclosure: I wanted Darvish.

[USAFChief]

 

I agree, there are valid reasons to criticize Mauer (though I don't think any are worth much anger) but his contract isn't one of them. Last year was the only year the team even approached an uncomfortable payroll and even that didn't stop them from chasing bigger names. If on the unlikely chance that Mauer's contract kept them from offering Darvish a $20M higher winning bid, well then I guess they got lucky on that front. Full disclosure: I wanted Darvish.

Oh, I think there's room for some questioning of Mauer's contract.

 

The article itself says fans "would have burned down Target Field" had the Twins not retained him.

 

To think that Mauer didn't know that, and take advantage of his 2009 season to extract more from the Twins than he was worth in pure baseball terms, and more than he would have gotten from another team, is pretty questionable.

 

I do agree it didn't hamper ownership much, if any, payroll wise. Nor do I begrudge Mauer much for getting every penny he could.

 

But let's not pretend he didn't do exactly that. He parlayed a unique situation and exceptional timing into an extremely player friendly contract. One that he hasn't come close to living up to, regardless if you believe that's entirely due to injury or not.

[Vanimal46]

Get your cheap shots and low blows in now! Only a couple days left to do so.

[Number3]

I get a kick out of the comment (paraphrase) that if he had gone to Red Sox or Yankees......

Not only would even those deep pocket teams not want him with that contract looming over his head but neither would anyone else. Mauer is the most "untradeable" player in major league history. His only value as a free agent would be as a very specialized pinch hitter against right handed pitching when the object is simply to get on base. He will either retire or Twins will overpay him for another year just for "perceived" marquee value.

[nicksaviking]

 

Oh, I think there's room for some questioning of Mauer's contract.

 

The article itself says fans "would have burned down Target Field" had the Twins not retained him.

 

To think that Mauer didn't know that, and take advantage of his 2009 season to extract more from the Twins than he was worth in pure baseball terms, and more than he would have gotten from another team, is pretty questionable.

 

I do agree it didn't hamper ownership much, if any, payroll wise. Nor do I begrudge Mauer much for getting every penny he could.

 

But let's not pretend he didn't do exactly that. He parlayed a unique situation and exceptional timing into an extremely player friendly contract. One that he hasn't come close to living up to, regardless if you believe that's entirely due to injury or not.

 

I guess as long as it isn't impacting the payroll, I don't care what they pay him any more than I care that the team got to pay Dozier a fraction of his worth for three of his past four years.

 

And the team should have known, and likely did know, that Mauer's 2009 power was going to go away. I swear, just about every one of those HR he hit in the Metrodome that year landed in the first row.

[blindeke]

 

Mauer is the most "untradeable" player in major league history. 

 

I recommend sometime looking at the worst contracts in ML history.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Oh, I think there's room for some questioning of Mauer's contract.

 

The article itself says fans "would have burned down Target Field" had the Twins not retained him.

 

To think that Mauer didn't know that, and take advantage of his 2009 season to extract more from the Twins than he was worth in pure baseball terms, and more than he would have gotten from another team, is pretty questionable.

 

I do agree it didn't hamper ownership much, if any, payroll wise. Nor do I begrudge Mauer much for getting every penny he could.

 

But let's not pretend he didn't do exactly that. He parlayed a unique situation and exceptional timing into an extremely player friendly contract. One that he hasn't come close to living up to, regardless if you believe that's entirely due to injury or not.

This take doesn't jibe with the economics of baseball at the time. Mauer was 28 years old when his first contract expired and he got a seven year, $185m deal as a 27 year old.

 

The following year, a 32 year old Pujols signed for $240m. Prince Fielder, a vastly inferior player to Mauer, signed for $215m. Another vastly inferior player, Ryan Howard, signed an absurd $125m contract despite not being a good player when the contract was signed. The year Mauer was due to be a FA, Boston (who needed a catcher at the time) signed Carl Crawford for $142m. Again, Crawford wasn't even close to the player Mauer was at the time. Two years later, Jacoby Ellsbury (lol) got over $150m from the Yankees.

 

The year Mauer was due to hit free agency, both the Yankees and Red Sox needed a catcher. Both teams weren't hesitating in the slightest to sign $125m+ contracts to players significantly inferior to Mauer (and usually older, to boot).

 

Even if you're pessimistic, Mauer would have received his $185m on the free agency market after 2010 and probably received significantly more than that, as he posted yet another typical "prime Joe Mauer season", with a WAR in the 5-6 win range.

[Dantes929]

"and there are some fans where no amount of context matters, they just like to get mad.”  There is that and there is also short memories.

 

     If you went back into the archives (I was on the Trib more than here I think) you would see that at least 98% of the fans were absolutely demanding that the Twins extend him and that they defended his right to get market value.    98%!!!     If you went back to the archives in 2013 you would see 98% saying they were against the contract to begin with.    Now of course the posters in 2009 may have been somewhat different than in 2013.    I suspect that most of them both demanded the contract and then later said they were against it from the start.

[KGB]

I agree the Twins had little choice but to give Mauer his contract.  Coming off a MVP season and moving into a new stadium supported by tax dollars, they couldn't let him go.  But Mauer also maximized his leverage, there was no home town discount being given.

 

Based on his result's he clearly didn't live up to the contract,and it is fair for people to be criticize him.  Imagine if he had gone to New York or Boston, had the mysteries Bilateral Leg Weakness and had this drop off in production.  

[jimmer]

 

This take doesn't jibe with the economics of baseball at the time. Mauer was 28 years old when his first contract expired and he got a seven year, $185m deal as a 27 year old.

 

The following year, a 32 year old Pujols signed for $240m. Prince Fielder, a vastly inferior player to Mauer, signed for $215m. Another vastly inferior player, Ryan Howard, signed an absurd $125m contract despite not being a good player when the contract was signed. The year Mauer was due to be a FA, Boston (who needed a catcher at the time) signed Carl Crawford for $142m. Again, Crawford wasn't even close to the player Mauer was at the time. Two years later, Jacoby Ellsbury (lol) got over $150m from the Yankees.

 

The year Mauer was due to hit free agency, both the Yankees and Red Sox needed a catcher. Both teams weren't hesitating in the slightest to sign $125m+ contracts to players significantly inferior to Mauer (and usually older, to boot).

 

Even if you're pessimistic, Mauer would have received his $185m on the free agency market after 2010 and probably received significantly more than that, as he posted yet another typical "prime Joe Mauer season", with a WAR in the 5-6 win range.

you're right. great post. good to see a rebuttal of another character attack on a high character player and person.

[Mike Sixel]

I think Mauer deserved that contract. I think the owners may or may not have felt it constrained them, but it really didn't. If it did, it was a choice.

 

He was one of the best hitters, in his prime, we've seen, and he did it at catcher. I just wish they had moved him off catcher a year earlier, as some here and elsewhere were hoping. We may be having a very different conversation right now.....

 

Mauer was a great, great player. He deserved to be paid like a great player. The Twins failed him, and us, by putting bad teams, mostly, around him. None of that was his fault.

[gunnarthor]

I don't have a problem with the contract. The team had the money. The fact that they've only spent that money on Mauer pisses me off to no end but I don't think we should blame Mauer for getting paid like he deserved. 

 

I also remember thinking that Mauer would be a safe bet to survive the contract. Even if he had to move off of catcher, his high avg and elite on-base skills would make him a Paul Molitor like DH, late into his career. That didn't happen.

[Danchat]

 

I get a kick out of the comment (paraphrase) that if he had gone to Red Sox or Yankees......

Not only would even those deep pocket teams not want him with that contract looming over his head but neither would anyone else. Mauer is the most "untradeable" player in major league history. His only value as a free agent would be as a very specialized pinch hitter against right handed pitching when the object is simply to get on base. He will either retire or Twins will overpay him for another year just for "perceived" marquee value.

What? Mauer was the best catcher in all of baseball, and the Yankees and/or Red Sox would have likely been willing to spend that kind of money. I'm not sure what you mean, if you're talking about the 2018 offseason as him being a "specialized pinch hitter" then I can understand what you're saying, but we're talking about the deal that was signed over the 2010 offseason. And usually when a player has a no-trade clause, they're "untradeable"... not sure what you meant there either.

[Doomtints]

Terry Ryan almost certainly thought the contract was debilitating, and for a while it was only his opinion that mattered. Dollars are simply incompatible with that guy.

 

I think the contract did hurt the team, but only because I have no question that Ryan's overreacting to the contract hurt the team.

[gunnarthor]

 

Terry Ryan almost certainly thought the contract was debilitating, and for a while it was only his opinion that mattered. Dollars are simply incompatible with that guy.

 

I think the contract did hurt the team, but only because I have no question that Ryan's overreacting to the contract hurt the team.

Ryan wasn't the GM.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

This take doesn't jibe with the economics of baseball at the time. Mauer was 28 years old when his first contract expired and he got a seven year, $185m deal as a 27 year old.

 

The following year, a 32 year old Pujols signed for $240m. Prince Fielder, a vastly inferior player to Mauer, signed for $215m. Another vastly inferior player, Ryan Howard, signed an absurd $125m contract despite not being a good player when the contract was signed. The year Mauer was due to be a FA, Boston (who needed a catcher at the time) signed Carl Crawford for $142m. Again, Crawford wasn't even close to the player Mauer was at the time. Two years later, Jacoby Ellsbury (lol) got over $150m from the Yankees.

 

The year Mauer was due to hit free agency, both the Yankees and Red Sox needed a catcher. Both teams weren't hesitating in the slightest to sign $125m+ contracts to players significantly inferior to Mauer (and usually older, to boot).

 

Even if you're pessimistic, Mauer would have received his $185m on the free agency market after 2010 and probably received significantly more than that, as he posted yet another typical "prime Joe Mauer season", with a WAR in the 5-6 win range.

 

Ryan Howard wasn't a good player?????

 

Top 5 in MVP voting for 4 years running and one MVP award in that stretch, but he wasn't good? Blasting 40-50 HRs a year? OPSing in the .900s on average??

 

I can agree it didn't work out great for them, but when Howard signed, he was a premier player in the league. 

[jimmer]

 

Ryan Howard wasn't a good player?????

 

Top 5 in MVP voting for 4 years running and one MVP award in that stretch, but he wasn't good? Blasting 40-50 HRs a year? OPSing in the .900s on average??

 

I can agree it didn't work out great for them, but when Howard signed, he was a premier player in the league. 

He said when Howard signed the contract.  Look from 2010 on (when he signed the contract).  Didn't OPS above .850s, didn't hit the HRs you mention, wasn't top 5ing in MVP.

[Battle ur tail off]

If Mauer had stayed behind the plate and not had his concussion, no one would ever be questioning that contract. As a catcher, producing where he was, if he could have kept that up for a number of years, he might have gone down as one of, if not the greatest catcher of all time. 

 

It's too bad he had to get his brain scrambled and move out from behind the dish. The Twins were a much stronger team with Mauer back there. 

[Battle ur tail off]

 

He said when Howard signed the contract.  Look from 2010 on.

 

He said he wasn't a good player when he signed the contract. Which is just not true. He hit 58 bombs one season for cripes sake. He got paid for what he did in the past, as did Mauer and most other players. 

 

Fell off a cliff though after that extension, there's no doubt about that!

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Ryan Howard wasn't a good player?????

 

Top 5 in MVP voting for 4 years running and one MVP award in that stretch, but he wasn't good? Blasting 40-50 HRs a year? OPSing in the .900s on average??

 

I can agree it didn't work out great for them, but when Howard signed, he was a premier player in the league. 

Ah, I forgot the timeline on that contract, which is where the absurdity really lays.

 

The contract was signed at the beginning of the 2010 season but didn't kick in until 2012, at which point Howard turned into a pumpkin. I forgot it was an extension signed well in advance of its terms (I knew it was an extension, didn't remember it was nearly two full years before it kicked in).

[jimmer]

 

Ah, I forgot the timeline on that contract, which is where the absurdity really lays.

 

The contract was signed at the beginning of the 2010 season but didn't kick in until 2012, at which point Howard turned into a pumpkin. I forgot it was an extension signed well in advance of its terms (I knew it was an extension, didn't remember it was nearly two full years before it kicked in).

But even so, Howard signed that contract in 2010 and was worth 1.0 fWAR in 2010, 1.6 in 2011.  You were right the first time.

 

In his career, Howard was only worth over 5 fWAR once.  Only worth over 4 fWAR twice.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

but even so, Howard was worth one fWAR in 2010, 1.6 in 2011.

 

In his career, Howard was only worth over 5 fWAR once.  Only worth over 4 fWAR twice.

Good points. It shouldn't be overlooked just how bad he was at first base in a league that required him to take the field every day.

[jimmer]

 

He said he wasn't a good player when he signed the contract. Which is just not true. He hit 58 bombs one season for cripes sake. He got paid for what he did in the past, as did Mauer and most other players. 

 

Fell off a cliff though after that extension, there's no doubt about that!

Not when he signed the contract he didn't hit 58 bombs. He didn't hit over 40.  He also didn't OPS in the 900s or higher or finish top 5 in MVP like you claimed.

[jimmer]

 

Good points. It shouldn't be overlooked just how bad he was at first base in a league that required him to take the field every day.

well yeah, too many people continue to look at only two things (especially for 1Bs) HR and RBI, then disregard everything else.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

well yeah, too many people continue to look at only two things (especially for 1Bs) HR and RBI, then disregard everything else.

It makes you wonder what his capability would have been as a DH in the American League.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

 

Oh, I think there's room for some questioning of Mauer's contract.

 

The article itself says fans "would have burned down Target Field" had the Twins not retained him.

 

To think that Mauer didn't know that, and take advantage of his 2009 season to extract more from the Twins than he was worth in pure baseball terms, and more than he would have gotten from another team, is pretty questionable.

 

I do agree it didn't hamper ownership much, if any, payroll wise. Nor do I begrudge Mauer much for getting every penny he could.

 

But let's not pretend he didn't do exactly that. He parlayed a unique situation and exceptional timing into an extremely player friendly contract. One that he hasn't come close to living up to, regardless if you believe that's entirely due to injury or not.

Mauer was worth 23 million a year to me. Of course it was not my money.

[jimmer]

 

It makes you wonder what his capability would have been as a DH in the American League.

its definitely what he should have been doing.  Like Ortiz.  Except Ortiz was a much, much better hitter.

[Doomtints]

 

Ryan wasn't the GM.

 

I didn't say Ryan gave him the contract.

[yarnivek1972]

Bad player personnel decisions hurt the Twins. Spending the money they had on players like Ricky Nolasco, Tsuyoshi Noshioka, Jamey Carroll, Mike Pelfrey, etc.

 

The Twins buried their heads in the sand continuing to operate as they had for decades, not noticing that the rest of the league was changing the definition of what quality player meant.