Interesting article about Buxton

[glunn]

I enjoyed the article linked below about Buxton. As you can see, the Twins and lots of other folks seem to think that he could be a hall of fame level player, but he has a lot to prove, especially at the plate.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2777166-byron-buxton-has-99-mph-arm-21-mph-speed-448-foot-power-and-a-lot-to-prove?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

 

[ashbury]

"That's my dream catch, I kid you not."

 

Channeling his Inner Jack Paar, apparently.

 

 

_{^{/ get off my lawn}}

[Mike Sixel]

Hall of Fame? Has any such player started this way? I doubt it.

[ashbury]

Hall of Fame? Has any such player started this way? I doubt it.

I had the same initial thought. But a couple of candidates came to mind afterward.

 

Sandy Koufax was pretty ordinary until he suddenly became SANDY! KOUFAX! The WAR statistic (whether b-r.com or fangraphs) values Buxton's defense pretty highly, and through their age 23 seasons their accumulated WAR totals are pretty similar. Buxton's off to a bad age-24 start, but the season's not over.

 

Ozzie Smith didn't come up to the majors until 23, and was always in the "if he could just hit" category. At age 27 he finally became consistent enough at the plate year after year to let his glove bring him to the Hall.

 

He's become a longshot for the Hall, but I wouldn't say it would be unprecedented for Byron to make it, as yet.

[yarnivek1972]

There was a substantially lower threshold of offense expected from shortstops than centerfielders, and still is. Buxton is going to have to hit enough to convince teams to play him. At some point, the “he’s still young” excuse stops being valid. At some point, he’ll have to contribute offensively or he won’t play.

[jokin]

There was a substantially lower threshold of offense expected from shortstops than centerfielders, and still is. Buxton is going to have to hit enough to convince teams to play him. At some point, the “he’s still young” excuse stops being valid. At some point, he’ll have to contribute offensively or he won’t play.

We're still a long, long way from that "point". In point of fact, it seems impossible that some forget, but he has already demonstrated throughout his minor league tenure and in certain 2nd Half ML stretches that he is capable of putting up MVP level numbers.

 

As long as he still has some of those stretches, plus his other-worldly speed, there will be teams interested helping in getting him over these dreadful stretches of offensive futility.

[bighat]

Another article on Buxton telling us all what we want to hear. He's got the look, the personality, and makes the flashy plays...he's got 'Star Power' in a league that's desperate for big name athletes. But these stories are getting old and are starting to look more like propaganda and less like feature articles. The emperor isn't wearing any clothes, folks.

 

It's almost June, and Byron has a total of 13 hits, 4 RBI, and he's batting .173 while hitting 9th for the 21-24 Minnesota Twins. And we're used to these numbers, this is what we've come to expect from Buxton. If he continues to play like this, he'll have a career as a 4th outfielder & defensive replacement.

 

When he put everything together late last summer, it was a great time to be a Twins fan. But this year's regression has been a gut-punch and we should stop forcing these Pollyanna takes on a player who has been an offensive disappointment. I want to see Buxton's name in the lineup every day, I want to see him become a better player, but I am getting sick of watching him strike out with 2 men on base.

[Tovar12]

Another article on Buxton telling us all what we want to hear. He's got the look, the personality, and makes the flashy plays...he's got 'Star Power' in a league that's desperate for big name athletes. But these stories are getting old and are starting to look more like propaganda and less like feature articles. The emperor isn't wearing any clothes, folks.

 

It's almost June, and Byron has a total of 13 hits, 4 RBI, and he's batting .173 while hitting 9th for the 21-24 Minnesota Twins. The only consistent thing about his offense is that he goes in to long, record-breaking slumps on a regular basis. He's older than a bunch of perennial All-Stars by now. We should all be disappointed and we shouldn't feel cynical about it. If he continues to play like this, he'll have a career as a 4th outfielder & defensive replacement.

 

When he put everything together late last summer, it was a great time to be a Twins fan. But this year's regression has been a gut-punch and we should stop forcing these Pollyanna takes on a player who has been an offensive disappointment. I want to see Buxton's name in the lineup every day, I want to see him become a better player, but I am getting sick of watching him strike out with 2 men on base.

Yep. Stop getting down 0-2 in the count in your first 60 seconds at bat. Stop striking out and flying out and start hitting ground balls and learn how to bunt. If I remember correctly, Carlos Gomez set a team record for bunt singles in a season. At least he figured out how to use his speed to get on base by hitting the ball on the ground. Can't the coaches figure out how to help Byron accomplish this? (or is he just stubborn or sadly, just that bad of a hitter?)

[rv78]

Flash back to the great improvement he had during the 2nd half of the 2017 season. Hitting Coach James Rowson was being praised for changing Buxton's leg kick, getting him to hold his bat still, less body movement at the plate. It was the answer as he quickly became a good hitter. What has changed? Is he not still taking the same approach?

I watch a lot of games. The biggest difference I see between the Twins hitting verses other teams like the Astros or the Yankees is that the Twins hitters swing at way too many balls out of the strike zone and when they get pitches that are over the middle, they just miss em and foul them off or don't swing at them because it is early in the count. Tells me their approach at the plate is terrible. Are they being told to work the pitcher to get him to throw a lot of pitches instead of just going up to the plate, looking for the first good pitch to hit and letting it rip? I call it the Joe Mauer approach. Let pitches go right down the middle early in the count, then get behind 0-2 and it forces you to swing at pitches you can't hit or that you don't want to. They talk about looking at as many pitches as you can to get an advantage over the pitcher, to see what he can throw. You know, 3rd time through the order pitchers start to struggle for that reason. The correct approach every time up, is to KNOW what the pitcher wants to throw. Where is he going to try to pitch you? Inside, outside, up, down? Then look for that pitch in that area and swing at it. You can't always wait for the pitcher to make a mistake pitch. Sometimes you have to hit a good pitch.

[gunnarthor]

 

Hall of Fame? Has any such player started this way? I doubt it.

I'm sure many have, actually. But it's really not the point, Buxton has to start producing and stay on the field. Start racking up all-star seasons and don't worry about the HOF nonsense.  

[vavo]

 

Yep. Stop getting down 0-2 in the count in your first 60 seconds at bat. Stop striking out and flying out and start hitting ground balls and learn how to bunt. If I remember correctly, Carlos Gomez set a team record for bunt singles in a season. At least he figured out how to use his speed to get on base by hitting the ball on the ground. Can't the coaches figure out how to help Byron accomplish this? (or is he just stubborn or sadly, just that bad of a hitter?)

 

Didn't Gomez become a star when he quit trying to do that and started hitting home runs?

[Doctor Wu]

 

There was a substantially lower threshold of offense expected from shortstops than centerfielders, and still is. Buxton is going to have to hit enough to convince teams to play him. At some point, the “he’s still young” excuse stops being valid. At some point, he’ll have to contribute offensively or he won’t play.

Those are my concerns too. I hope that "at some point" arrives for Buxton soon! Otherwise, I fear we will end up with a faster version of Peter Bourjos. Not a horrible thing, but I really want to see that bat come around.

[TheLeviathan]

I hope we have more reasons for articles like this going forward, but we're at 1,000 ABs....it's time to start showing something more than this at the plate or the optimism about the future is just a pipedream.  

[Number3]

Mentioning Buxton and Hall of Fame in the same sentence is like mentioning me and Jack Nicklaus in the same sentence in a positive way about golf. You don't get into the Hall on the come and simply being an athlete does not get you into the Hall. Buxton is an athlete who has speed,strength and coordination. He is not close to being a consistent Major League (never mind Hall of Fame ) offensive baseball player. Athletes who have had a great deal of success in their younger days are not used to the work and mental effort to overcome weaknesses revealed playing against the best. Buxton;s athletic skills are fine in center field. They do not guarantee success with a bat in his hand especially if he won't even consider getting on base any way he can. Joe Mauer should be his mentor. Many of Mauer's weak grounders would be hits for Buxton.

[Han Joelo]

 

 

"The correct approach every time up, is to KNOW what the pitcher wants to throw."  Indeed.

 

Buxton is Neo.  He can already outrun bullets, he's still working on slowing them down so he can swat them.  

 

Buxton is Harry Potter circa Prisoner of Azkaban.  Most of the time Hermione is still saving his butt, but every once in a while (9 HR's in 29 games)  he summons a Patronus that blows all the Dementors away.

 

Buxton needs to turn off his targeting computer and just let the Force flow through him, and trust his instincts.

[Loosey]

I think talking about any 23 year old player as a hall of famer is pretty ridiculous, unless their name is Mike Trout.  

 

If Buxton doesn't end up in the Hall that will not make his career a failure.  At this point, if he can become a slightly above average hitter, his defense will make him a perennial All-Star and difference maker.  

 

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Saying a guy can play at a hall of fame level is not the same as saying a guy is an upper case Hall of Fame player.

[ashbury]

The article itself doesn't mention the Hall of Fame, and Glunn's characterization was just to describe the opinions offered in it. I think we're off on a tangent here, even though I contributed when answering another poster's question with an attempt at some historical perspective.

[nicksaviking]

 

Yep. Stop getting down 0-2 in the count in your first 60 seconds at bat. Stop striking out and flying out and start hitting ground balls and learn how to bunt. If I remember correctly, Carlos Gomez set a team record for bunt singles in a season. At least he figured out how to use his speed to get on base by hitting the ball on the ground. Can't the coaches figure out how to help Byron accomplish this? (or is he just stubborn or sadly, just that bad of a hitter?)

 

Yeah, it seems nearly impossible how often he starts off 0-2, particularly since he's almost always taking the 1st pitch. If he was facing Twins pitching that 1st pitch take would be a ball 50% of the time. 

 

Still, bad luck aside, he should probably start taking a hack at some of those 1st pitch fastballs. 

 

This young man needs more confidence. Few players probably have much confidence down 0-2.

[Darius]

Buxton no doubt could be great. He's already good based on defense alone.

 

The knee-jerk reactions to this guy are out of control. First half last year people wanted him dumped for peanuts so Granite could take the job. Then, he broke out and people were clamoring for a long-term deal before he reaches free agency and demands Bill Gates-money. Now, many are swinging back violently to the "he's a bust" camp.

 

As mentioned above, he's 24. Everyone needs to relax. He's going to get it figured out and be a star in this league. Hall of Famer is a little lofty and should be the expectation for nobody, But he certainly could still achieve that.

 

Speaking of CF alternative to Buxton, I saw an interesting stat somewhere on Hicks today:

 

Everyone loves to talk about Judge in NY. But, you know who is really making that team tick? Hicks. The Yankees this year are a .500 ball club without Hicks in the lineup (7-7). With Hicks, they're something like 24-8. He makes highlight outfield assists, has fairly good range in CF, and is turning in to one of the best offensive CFs in baseball. We didn't need him. Id rather not make a similar mistake with Buxton.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Hall of Fame? Has any such player started this way? I doubt it.

 

I think there's something to be said about this new era that emphasizes strike outs. There's a lot more strke out pitchers in MLB today then there ever was, and I think you'll see a lot more young guys struggling in their debuts due to that stuff. Plate discipline will have be taught a lot more in the minors...

 

As to your point, I think it can happen, though his dreadful starts the last thee seasons tell me it won't. Hopefully something clicks with the kid.

[Mike Sixel]

He has nearly 1000 MLB at bats. How are reactions knee jerk at this point?

[Mike Sixel]

So many excuses for his age.... Plenty of young players are up and producing. Can he be good? Sure. But he's not even close right now, and he's part of why this team isn't good. Kind of hard to be a great team with your hope for the franchise hitting like this.

[TheLeviathan]

 

So many excuses for his age.... Plenty of young players are up and producing. Can he be good? Sure. But he's not even close right now, and he's part of why this team isn't good. Kind of hard to be a great team with your hope for the franchise hitting like this.

 

Look no further than the second half of last year.  We have the makings of a great lineup with very good hitters like Mauer, Rosario, Kepler, Dozier, and possibly Sano and Polanco.  But you add in a dynamic force like Buxton and it takes it to another level.

 

We need that.  I'm not sure this team is a WS contender if either Sano or Buxton flames out.  

[Han Joelo]

 

So many excuses for his age.... Plenty of young players are up and producing. Can he be good? Sure. But he's not even close right now, and he's part of why this team isn't good. Kind of hard to be a great team with your hope for the franchise hitting like this.

While I don't disagree, I'll project a bit of my ownself on him, as a fellow Sagittarian born 2 days (and 20 years) apart--he is well aware of what you are saying, and he is his own worst critic.  He'll bloom late but when (and a big IF) he does, it will be unlike anything we've ever seen.  My ONLY worry is that, like a desert wildflower, the bloom will fade all to quickly.  I'll keep watching that patch of dry, desert soil, and wait for the thunderstorm that jolts him to life.

 

For more information on Sagittarians, here this, from an article describing how each sign of the Zodiac would react to the Zombie Apocalypse:

 

Sagittarius (November 22 – December 21): Wanders off to look for weapons, comes back with a pet zombie.

Sagittarius is an open-minded traveler, wandering the Earth searching for meaning. People born under Scorpio are extroverted, enthusiastic and naturally curious. They would be the first sign to break off from the group in the middle of the woods to go explore unknown territory, returning from their travels with a pet zombie and some socially unacceptable philosophies about how zombies could be the new domesticated dogs.

 

Buxton has to get through his "wandering" the desert/woods phase.  Hopefully he'll do that while he's younger than I was when I finally got back.

 

Pretty sure Nuke Laloosh was a Sag, too.  Rowson should just tell him to wear lingerie and breath through his eyelids.

[Mike Sixel]

Agreed.... But I tend to ignore September results that are different than other months. Now, he was very good earlier than that....I even say in that quote he can be good, but he's not right now, and that they need him to be. It seems like we are agreeing?

[ashbury]

Sagittarius (November 22 – December 21): Wanders off to look for weapons, comes back with a pet zombie.

We Taurus don't believe in horoscopes.

[gocgo]

I know that numbers don't lie, but neither do my eyes.  He's a difference maker.  Period. 

 

When he's on base, changes the game.  The opposition acts differently when he's on base and even when he is at the plate.  Routine singles for other players are stand up doubles for him.  Any hesitation by a fielder opens up the possibility of him taking an extra base.  Only a handful of players in the game put pressure on a defense like he does.

 

When he's in center field, he changes the game.  The pitchers can pitch with more confidence, the base runners have to hesitate before taking off on a full sprint on what would normally be a hit to the outfield.  The outfielders around him can play a step or two closer to the line.  It's a different brand of baseball with Byron Buxton in the game.

 

 

[Han Joelo]

Just savor this (late season) morsel if you need to remind yourself of how good he can be:

 

 

https://youtu.be/aTHIIlOf0mM

 

Don't look up the box score to see who those pitchers were, if you want to maintain your hopes.

[yarnivek1972]

I know that numbers don't lie, but neither do my eyes. He's a difference maker. Period.

 

When he's on base, changes the game. The opposition acts differently when he's on base and even when he is at the plate. Routine singles for other players are stand up doubles for him. Any hesitation by a fielder opens up the possibility of him taking an extra base. Only a handful of players in the game put pressure on a defense like he does.

 

When he's in center field, he changes the game. The pitchers can pitch with more confidence, the base runners have to hesitate before taking off on a full sprint on what would normally be a hit to the outfield. The outfielders around him can play a step or two closer to the line. It's a different brand of baseball with Byron Buxton in the game.

He’s not changing the game on the bases with a .200 obp. And he won’t have the opportunity to make plays in the OF when he is benched to inject offense a couple times a week and pinch hit for a couple more times.

 

Buxton right now has about 100 more PA than Hicks did as a Twin. Their OPS+ are nearly identical, 83 for Buxton, 81 for Hicks. Biggest difference offensively is K rate. Hicks was under 20%. Buxton is over 30%. If you don’t put the bat on the ball, you are going to have a hard time being a productive hitter.

 

The Hicks trade may go down as one of the most impactful in Twins history. They got nothing from Murphy. And now he’s doing well elsewhere. Hicks has blossomed into a solid, borderline all star centerfielder. Buxton isn’t a completely lost cause - yet - but it’s hard to envision him ever being even an average MLB hitter because he has zero strike zone recognition.