Cubs Pitching Coach fired. Buddy of Molitor.

[ppearson50]

Guess who was a Molitor teammate on the Brewers? Chris Bosio. He was just let go by the Cubs and Molitor looked at getting him on his staff three years ago. Bosio was a Brewer from 86 to 92. 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/21101785/chicago-cubs-fire-pitching-coach-chris-bosio

[Seth Stohs]

They wanted him when Molitor was hired... he's certainly jumped up to the top of the wish list, I would think... but with Falvine, they may have other requirements they're looking for.

[ppearson50]

I wonder how much say Molitor has in hiring his own staff. 

 

[jorgenswest]

Hickey must be going to Cubs.

 

The staff they added last year in Rowson and Pickler appear to be excellent hires. I am not sure they were high on the radar. I hope they find the same success with a pitching coach.

[mike8791]

This is the type of "small" thinking that has doomed the Twins to mediocrity.  Just because there is a Molitor-Bosio connection is scant reason for hiring this guy.  Any one want to bet that Bosio was fired the moment Theo realized Mike Maddox was available?  Remind anyone how fast Theo acted when Maddon became available.

If the Twins organization truly wanted a championship they would go after Maddox hard!  The Cubs will be all in; the Twins will go cheap and hire a second tier pitching coach.  Count on it!

[Tuba]

 

This is the type of "small" thinking that has doomed the Twins to mediocrity.  Just because there is a Molitor-Bosio connection is scant reason for hiring this guy.  Any one want to bet that Bosio was fired the moment Theo realized Mike Maddox was available?  Remind anyone how fast Theo acted when Maddon became available.

If the Twins organization truly wanted a championship they would go after Maddox hard!  The Cubs will be all in; the Twins will go cheap and hire a second tier pitching coach.  Count on it!

 

Bosio is pretty well respected though isn't he? Its not like he couldn't get the Twins job on merit. 

[mike8791]

Bosio was respected enough to be retained when Maddon was hired; however, Cub pitchers, particularly the bullpen, have largely not progressed under Bosio.  The only starter who progressed was Hendricks who was smart enough to figure out how to overcome his lack of velocity and still succeed(sounds like brother Greg, no?).  

 

Not to say Bosio was in the category of Dick Such but he certainly was never in the elite category of Mike Maddox who did wonders with a very mediocre Ranger staff.  This is a great test of whether Falvey and company can best Theo and the Cubs in getting the best man available.  To date, the Twins have never ponied up.  Any bets on how this one will turn out?

[Thrylos]

They better get an analytics-minded pitching coach.  Plus Bosio declined a Twins' job offer previously, so he should not be considered again.  No sloppy seconds; about time that the Twins are pretending to be a contender and act like it.

[mike8791]

Just to tamper our expectations, the Twins have probably already placed themselves out of the bidding for Maddox because of their(reportedly) low ball contract with Molitor.  Would they pay more for a pitching coach than for the manager?  To get maddox they will have to outbid the Cubs and probably other suitors.Can they afford it?  Of course!  The Pohlads are the wealthiest owners in baseball!  Will they? Of course not. Its not in this organization's DNA to outbid other teams for real talent.

 

The Rickett's family bought the Cubs to bring a championship to Chicago.  They succeeded because they backed up their plan by going out and hiring the best talent available.  The results are apparent, just as they are with the Pohlad's halfhearted efforts to be "competitive".  The results are also apparent.  To expect any more flies against their history and their limited ambitions. I am afraid.  Time will tell, but I'm not getting my hopes up for a third championship banner to fly above Target Field so long as current ownership stays.

[spinowner]

There would be symmetry if the Cubs hire Maddux. Then their manager and pitching coach would both have six-letter last names beginning with Madd-- and with the fifth letter commonly misspelled.

[tvagle]

 

Any one want to bet that Bosio was fired the moment Theo realized Mike Maddox was available?  Remind anyone how fast Theo acted when Maddon became available.

If the Twins organization truly wanted a championship they would go after Maddox hard!  The Cubs will be all in; the Twins will go cheap and hire a second tier pitching coach.  Count on it!

Maddox is the second tier coach...Bosio was as good as gone when Hickey was let go by TB...Joe's getting the band back together

 

http://www.tampabay.com/resources/images/dti/rendered/2014/10/01WEB_RaysCoaches102714_750_14112775_8col.jpg

[Mr. Brooks]

Just to tamper our expectations, the Twins have probably already placed themselves out of the bidding for Maddox because of their(reportedly) low ball contract with Molitor. Would they pay more for a pitching coach than for the manager? To get maddox they will have to outbid the Cubs and probably other suitors.Can they afford it? Of course! The Pohlads are the wealthiest owners in baseball! Will they? Of course not. Its not in this organization's DNA to outbid other teams for real talent.

 

The Rickett's family bought the Cubs to bring a championship to Chicago. They succeeded because they backed up their plan by going out and hiring the best talent available. The results are apparent, just as they are with the Pohlad's halfhearted efforts to be "competitive". The results are also apparent. To expect any more flies against their history and their limited ambitions. I am afraid. Time will tell, but I'm not getting my hopes up for a third championship banner to fly above Target Field so long as current ownership stays.

Could you please post the applicable links to your allegations that Molitor signed a low ball contract?

Thanks in advance.

[prouster]

I . . . don't understand the knocks against Bosio. I don't know enough about him to say whether the Twins should make a run at him, but the Cubs won the World Series last year in part because of an excellent pitching staff. No idea why the Cubs let him go, but I have a hard time accepting it's because he's a hack.

[Mr. Brooks]

I . . . don't understand the knocks against Bosio. I don't know enough about him to say whether the Twins should make a run at him, but the Cubs won the World Series last year in part because of an excellent pitching staff. No idea why the Cubs let him go, but I have a hard time accepting it's because he's a hack.

Isn't there some middle ground between the absolute best guy for the job, and a "hack"?

[snepp]

 

Isn't there some middle ground between the absolute best guy for the job, and a "hack"?

 

Hey, no politics!

[prouster]

 

Isn't there some middle ground between the absolute best guy for the job, and a "hack"?

 

Of course, but the tone of the Bosio posts isn't exactly charitable.

[Guest]

How about Jim Benedict? He has an analytical background that should be a great fit for the Twins.

 

Bosio may be OK, but the Twins need to be extra careful not to give preference to relationships, because a DNA weakness of the organization has been to allow relationships to cloud judgment. Relationships are great, but not if they tend to cause you to miss innovative ideas or better candidates.

[spinowner]

 

How about Jim Benedict? He has an analytical background that should be a great fit for the Twins.

Bosio may be OK, but the Twins need to be extra careful not to give preference to relationships, because a DNA weakness of the organization has been to allow relationships to cloud judgment. Relationships are great, but not if they tend to cause you to miss innovative ideas or better candidates.

I think the Mientkiewicz decision shows that this organization puts other priorities ahead of relationships. It used to be that managers could pretty much select their coaches, but I think Falvine will have a lot of input in this hiring.

[Roaddog]

There are a couple of guys that really intrigue me. First my criteria is that they have to have a reputation for developing pitchers. I really like what Jose Rosada has done with the Yankees organization. I'm just not big into hiring guys who have been around for awhile. Then there is Tim Leveque from the Cards. Comes from an organization known for pitching. The other one is Dan Meyer from the Braves. I hadn't heard of him previously, but was impressed by his bio.

[mike8791]

To Mr. Brooks:

 

Not a lot of hard info on Molitor's new contract, bit I relied on Bernadino's guess http://www.twincities.com/2017/10/09/twins-paul-molitor-agree-to-three-year-extension/ that it was under $2MM/year paid Gardy.  As you know, the Twins are very close-mouthed when it comes to revealing salaries.

 

Also, turns out that it was Maddon that instigated Bosio's firing, not Theo, so perhaps my guess on Maddux's availability influencing the Bosio firing was incorrect.  It will be fascinating to see where all the available PC's land = and how agressive the Twins will be in hiring the best person available!!

[mnfireman]

I think the team should try and get whoever the Cubs don't! I'm sure Maddon wants Hickey and Theo wants Maddux, let's see who wins and go get the "loser".

[Darius]

Bosio was fired for a reason. If he is as good as some claim, then there is something else there (personality issue, not seeing eye to eye on philosophy, etc). If there is nothing going on behind the scenes, there must be issues with his performance/message as a coach.

 

I find it hard to believe the scenario laid out by some that he's one of the best pitching coaches on earth, a recent World Series champ, and was fired based on the chance to compete for another highly regarded pitching coach, or to hire one of Joe's old buddies. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

Go get a young up-and-comer who lives on the cutting edge of statistical analysis, and someone who can talk some sense into Molitor in terms of bullpen usage. Get a guy with some practical recent experience, instead of a crusty old bench barnacle who's still living in the 1980s.

[old nurse]

 

Bosio was fired for a reason. If he is as good as some claim, then there is something else there (personality issue, not seeing eye to eye on philosophy, etc). If there is nothing going on behind the scenes, there must be issues with his performance/message as a coach.

I find it hard to believe the scenario laid out by some that he's one of the best pitching coaches on earth, a recent World Series champ, and was fired based on the chance to compete for another highly regarded pitching coach, or to hire one of Joe's old buddies. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Go get a young up-and-comer who lives on the cutting edge of statistical analysis, and someone who can talk some sense into Molitor in terms of bullpen usage. Get a guy with some practical recent experience, instead of a crusty old bench barnacle who's still living in the 1980s.

I am kind of stupid on this. How does statistical analysis work on teaching mechanics of pitching?

What person is out there with practical recent experience would not also be fired. Could you also cite some reference as to Maddux, Bosio or the other guy's pitching philosophies that would lead someone to believe they are stuck in the 80's

 

[PseudoSABR]

I hope the pitching coach is no one I've heard of.  As others have suggested, the team needs a pitching coach that is willing to work with analytical department and implement their recommendations in a way that gets results with players.   I'm not sure Maddox, Bosio, or even former Major League pitchers necessarily fit that profile. 

[prouster]

 

Bosio was fired for a reason. If he is as good as some claim, then there is something else there (personality issue, not seeing eye to eye on philosophy, etc). If there is nothing going on behind the scenes, there must be issues with his performance/message as a coach.

I find it hard to believe the scenario laid out by some that he's one of the best pitching coaches on earth, a recent World Series champ, and was fired based on the chance to compete for another highly regarded pitching coach, or to hire one of Joe's old buddies. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Go get a young up-and-comer who lives on the cutting edge of statistical analysis, and someone who can talk some sense into Molitor in terms of bullpen usage. Get a guy with some practical recent experience, instead of a crusty old bench barnacle who's still living in the 1980s.

 

I agree with your last paragraph, although I don't think anyone here has called Bosio one of the best on earth (although it wouldn't be a stretch to make that argument, if we buy the appeal to his authority of being a now former MLB pitching coach). Coaches are fired all the time. It doesn't mean they're incompetent or that there are irreconcilable differences. Of course those reasons are sometimes true, but a given firing could be a matter of scapegoating, hasty/myopic decision making on the executive level, or something else. No idea which applies to Bosio.

 

I am kind of stupid on this. How does statistical analysis work on teaching mechanics of pitching?

What person is out there with practical recent experience would not also be fired. Could you also cite some reference as to Maddux, Bosio or the other guy's pitching philosophies that would lead someone to believe they are stuck in the 80's

 

I think an example could be last night's ALCS game. The Astros threw a ridiculous number of breaking balls, especially after McCullers came in. Their pitching coach said afterwards that the recommendation was made by their analytics people. I think it's a matter of hiring a guy willing to convert analysis into direct strategy rather than teaching pitchers how to pitch. My impression is that while MLB pitching coaches work out kinks in guys' deliveries, they aren't really teaching mechanics. Guys who get to that level already pretty much know how to pitch.

[Mr. Brooks]

To Mr. Brooks:

 

Not a lot of hard info on Molitor's new contract, bit I relied on Bernadino's guess http://www.twincities.com/2017/10/09/twins-paul-molitor-agree-to-three-year-extension/ that it was under $2MM/year paid Gardy. As you know, the Twins are very close-mouthed when it comes to revealing salaries.

 

Also, turns out that it was Maddon that instigated Bosio's firing, not Theo, so perhaps my guess on Maddux's availability influencing the Bosio firing was incorrect. It will be fascinating to see where all the available PC's land = and how agressive the Twins will be in hiring the best person available!!

That report doesn't say anywhere that it's a lowball contract.

I'd imagine that half or more of the managers in mlb make less than the $2 million per that Gardy was making by the end of his tenure.

[spinowner]

 

My impression is that while MLB pitching coaches work out kinks in guys' deliveries, they aren't really teaching mechanics. Guys who get to that level already pretty much know how to pitch.

Well, that's how things should work. I've said before that while the major league pitching coach is not unimportant a higher priority is to get the right people working with our pitchers in the minor leagues so they do pretty much know how to pitch when they get to that level.

[crapforks]

The interesting thing about this debate is pitching coach as strategist to maximize effectiveness vs pitching coach as physical therapist of sorts (working out kinks, fine tuning mechanics, etc.) and both could be profoundly noticeable. I hope we get some details on the reasoning for whomever is ultimately hired for the position. Im very intrigued by the process and the rationale.

[beckmt]

I agree on the analytics.  I do like Hickey, and Bosio could not fix the Cubs bullpen inability to throw strikes. Otherwise get a young up and comer who believes in analytics. 

The article on the Astros pitching philosophy convinced me that quick turnaround is key.  Wonder how the Yankees will fare next year if they see a diet of curveballers.

[old nurse]

 

I agree with your last paragraph, although I don't think anyone here has called Bosio one of the best on earth (although it wouldn't be a stretch to make that argument, if we buy the appeal to his authority of being a now former MLB pitching coach). Coaches are fired all the time. It doesn't mean they're incompetent or that there are irreconcilable differences. Of course those reasons are sometimes true, but a given firing could be a matter of scapegoating, hasty/myopic decision making on the executive level, or something else. No idea which applies to Bosio.

 

 

I think an example could be last night's ALCS game. The Astros threw a ridiculous number of breaking balls, especially after McCullers came in. Their pitching coach said afterwards that the recommendation was made by their analytics people. I think it's a matter of hiring a guy willing to convert analysis into direct strategy rather than teaching pitchers how to pitch. My impression is that while MLB pitching coaches work out kinks in guys' deliveries, they aren't really teaching mechanics. Guys who get to that level already pretty much know how to pitch.

You need to read more  paying attention to the details in what the pitchers say about their coaches.  

In regards to knowing everything by the time they got to the majors, Roger Craig teaching the split finger fastball to legions of players. Bobby Cueller the change up. Stats can tell you what to pitch. I wouldn't disagree with that. The mechanics for pitchers needs to be watched and understood. It is a big body going a few different directions at the same time. The mechanics need to be watched. I can't remember which pitcher it was for the Twins but IIRC a fan called in noting that his arm angle had dropped. After a correction the pitcher was pitching better.