Twins fire Dougie Baseball

[drivlikejehu]

 

I imagine Mientkiewicz had a pretty good relationship with Steil and wanted to hear him say it. Probably obvious that Steil would tell Dougie had it been his call.

 

There's not a good answer to that question. Technically everything is the responsibility of Falvey. But on something like a minor league coach, he would be relying on other people to provide input. It's a group decision-making process. 

 

The front office did not want to bring him back. It wasn't personal . . . he wanted to move in that direction because he was upset, but it wasn't a legitimate question.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Dougie doesn't have the temperament to go much further than class A manager. Loved him as a Twins first baseman, though.

[SwainZag]

Dougie wasn't a Falvey hire, they were only in the organization a year together....I don't really see the big issue here. 

[drjim]

There's not a good answer to that question. Technically everything is the responsibility of Falvey. But on something like a minor league coach, he would be relying on other people to provide input. It's a group decision-making process.

 

The front office did not want to bring him back. It wasn't personal . . . he wanted to move in that direction because he was upset, but it wasn't a legitimate question.

I agree with you on all counts. I understand why the front office made the move, I understand why Mientkiewicz asked the question, and I appreciate why Steil didn't answer.

[Old Twins Cap]

Realistically, if you are Falvey and Levine, and this guy is climbing up the coaching ranks in your organization, but you conclude he will not be going much higher, and is not the right guy with not the right emphasis you want to impart to your up-coming kids, you let him know that at the first available moment, so he can find a coaching job elsewhere.

 

Sounds like Mcz has process issues, but he comes across as a little vindinctive in his quotes, not something the industry will really prize in an org guy.

 

 

[luckylager]

Sorry to see him go. One of my favorite Twins of the last 20 years and seemed like a good MLB managerial candidate. He'll no doubt land another gig somewhere else.

[Tom Froemming]

Wanted to pass along a few things I shared on Twitter. This is just me connecting some dots, I have no idea if there's anything to this ... but,

 

I remembered this story from last year in which Stephen Gonsalves kinda sold out Dougie for breaking an org rule/philosophy at the time. 

 

"I was going out with 91 pitches, and I think normally there's a Twins rule that you're not allowed to start an inning after 85 pitches," Gonsalves said. "Doug was confident in me and I appreciate that. I was waiting, watching him out of the corner of my eye in the dugout. He walked by and was sitting by the water jug, taking little glances at me."

 

That got me thinking about who he was most responsible for protecting this year. Lachlan Wells, who's still only 20, threw over 100 pitches in three-straight outings in late June. He missed all of July and most of August with a flexor mass strain. There was also a stretch in late August where Doug had Lewis Thorpe, who of course missed the prior two seasons, throw 97, 100 and 101 pitches in consecutive starts.

 

There's no questioning Doug was a winner and his players loved him, but I wouldn't be surprised if his dismissal has something to do with failure to adhere to team guidelines regarding starting pitchers. Again, just a complete guess. Really tough to come up with any other potential reasons/conspiracy theories  

[biggentleben]

 

Yes soft, aquire a serviceable back end starter who couldve contributed a few more wins and then panic and trade him for two powerball tickets. Oh sorry I meant can't miss prospects that will someday arrive to help the future immaculate team that goes 162-0 and makes a deep playoff run. Normally dumpster diving to grab a player with numbers like colon had is not an act of genius. Somehow he's found a way to contribute but he ain't leading this team on a playoff run.

Somehow I can't agree trading an effective closer for a wad of cash is a genius move either. So kinzler would've left after this year anyway, in the mean time we wouldn't have Matt freakin belisle attempting to close out games.


Strange that a "top reliever" is a guy who just made his debut...

 

You've seen what Garcia has done with the Yankees, right? I'm not sure what stability there'd have been with him in house.

[Shaitan]

Yes, he won minor league games. But managers rarely last more than 5 years anywhere. Add to it that Mientkiewicz has something of a history of being a divisive clubhouse guy (not AJ level, but not that far off), and this isn't surprising in the least. He seemed to be loved by the Twins as a player, but that didn't carry over to other teams.

[nicksaviking]

I was surprised by the headline.

 

My surprise vanished after reading Doug's quotes. Boastful and indignant and he's surprised he's not coming back when he's supposed to be shaping 20-year-olds?

 

I get it, my ire would be up too, but when fired, there's a reason 99.9% of all other coaches and managers thank their former employers and bite their tongues while doing it. Who does he aspire to be, Ozzie Guillen?

 

He's had a great career with the organization, but a lack of self control and self preservation is a poor example for young players.

[nicksaviking]

Wanted to pass along a few things I shared on Twitter. This is just me connecting some dots, I have no idea if there's anything to this ... but,

 

I remembered this story from last year in which Stephen Gonsalves kinda sold out Dougie for breaking an org rule/philosophy at the time. 

 

"I was going out with 91 pitches, and I think normally there's a Twins rule that you're not allowed to start an inning after 85 pitches," Gonsalves said. "Doug was confident in me and I appreciate that. I was waiting, watching him out of the corner of my eye in the dugout. He walked by and was sitting by the water jug, taking little glances at me."

 

That got me thinking about who he was most responsible for protecting this year. Lachlan Wells, who's still only 20, threw over 100 pitches in three-straight outings in late June. He missed all of July and most of August with a flexor mass strain. There was also a stretch in late August where Doug had Lewis Thorpe, who of course missed the prior two seasons, throw 97, 100 and 101 pitches in consecutive starts.

 

There's no questioning Doug was a winner and his players loved him, but I wouldn't be surprised if his dismissal has something to do with failure to adhere to team guidelines regarding starting pitchers. Again, just a complete guess. Really tough to come up with any other potential reasons/conspiracy theories

 

Sounds like he should be a major conference college coach.

 

If your recollection is true, he's lucky he didn't get canned mid season.

[RaoulDuke]

I think they are going to clean the organization of the purely old school mentality guys, so they can install the kind of system that led to the development of the Indians pitching staff.  This is what they were brought in for and I am happy to see it begin to happen.

 

Dougie Baseball was a good minor league manager and has some real Twins nostalgia tied to him but I am ok with them moving on from guys in the Ron Gardenhire mold.  

 

It sounds mean but I am also very excited to see the pitching coordinator (and anyone else who had anything to do with the development of Twins pitchers in the last decade) go.  Bring on the new school analytic approach! 

[Brock Beauchamp]

I know this may sound harsh but... good.

 

The way people rave about Mientkiewicz, you'd think he's Joe Maddon. My understanding is that Dougie doesn't only avoid sabremetric-based analysis, he's often hostile toward the idea. His comments over the years have led me to believe he's simply not going to come around on the topic, which means he's no longer a fit for the organization.

 

Adapt or die. If you're not going to play ball with the new front office's vision for the future, you have no place in the organization. This team had a development problem and I'm not going to cry if Falvey and Levine begin to clean house in the minors.

[Aaron Cross]

And he's none to happy about it. Personally, the more guys they purge from the previous regime, the better. Falvine has a right to bring in their own guys.

 

I really wouldn't be surprised to see Molitor fired either. Overall, he's done OK, but he's made enough questionable in-game decisions for me to be indifferent on him. Last night for instance. Colon was clearly gassed in the 6th, then he walks the lead off guy in the 7th. The writing was all over the wall he had nothing left, yet Molitor left him in a batter too long. Cost them the game.

[Aaron Cross]

I know this may sound harsh but... good.

 

The way people rave about Mientkiewicz, you'd think he's Joe Maddon. My understanding is that Dougie doesn't only avoid sabremetric-based analysis, he's often hostile toward the idea. His comments over the years have led me to believe he's simply not going to come around on the topic, which means he's no longer a fit for the organization.

 

Adapt or die. If you're not going to play ball with the new front office's vision for the future, you have no place in the organization. This team had a development problem and I'm not going to cry if Falvey and Levine begin to clean house in the minors.

Spot on, and I'm not even a saber guy myself, but he has to be atleast somewhat open to it. As far as Dougy being upset with how they handled his firing? Whaaaaa. Get over it. Same for the Dougy lovers who are in full melt down mode. Falvine deserves a couple years before we start throwing them under the bus.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I do think the timing and not being willing to tell him why was bad. He does deserve that.

the timing will never be good. The hurricane sucks, but waiting until the cleanup was done in January or February would hurt him and the Twins org worse. It's never a good time to have to look for a new job.

 

Having the discussion about "why" at the moment of truth is a bad idea. Discussions get heated and regretful things happen. Always best to inform briefly and end the conversation. Besides, I'm sure Doug has been given directions and shared expectations over the season that, I'm sure if Doug had an introspective moment, he'd know why.

[Boom Boom]

I would have canned Doug after he physically attacked another coach.

 

He's had the benefit of a stocked system and being a former Twin. He's overrated.

[Seth Stohs]

 

the timing will never be good. The hurricane sucks, but waiting until the cleanup was done in January or February would hurt him and the Twins org worse. It's never a good time to have to look for a new job.

 

I agree... It's unfortunate timing in that it has become part of the story. It makes it feel worse to someone reading the story.

[Doctor Wu]

This news truly shocked me at first. For several years now it seemed like Mientkiewicz was being groomed for the manager's role in Minnesota. But ... after reading the analysis from others on this board, I can't say that I'm upset about the parting. The organization needs their minor league managers on the same developmental page. If Dougie's vision clashed with Falvey and Levine's, and especially if he's adverse to sabermetric strategy, that would be too awkward a fit going forward. One wonders if this is only the first of several changes in the coaching and managing ranks in the organization in the months ahead..

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I agree... It's unfortunate timing in that it has become part of the story. It makes it feel worse to someone reading the story.

agreed 100%

[diehardtwinsfan]

He didn't exactly handle losing his job to Morneau all that well either. Says a lot about him actually.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

He didn't exactly handle losing his job to Morneau all that well either. Says a lot about him actually.

Nor did he handle the Boston game seven ball with grace.

[USAFChief]

I have no problem with the org not retaining Doug. Probably the right call.

 

I have a problem with Falvey or at least Levine not making that call. It's not a minor league "coach." It's a minor league manager.

 

Not very classy. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[spinowner]

 

...after reading the analysis from others on this board, I can't say that I'm upset about the parting. The organization needs their minor league managers on the same developmental page.

This is the crux of the matter.

Reading this thread has been very good at reminding me to think about the big picture. I was initially surprised because Mient has gotten mostly good press locally, but now that I've looked at it from the perspective of what's best for the organization I agree that he's probably not a good fit for what Falvine aspire to build.
I've said on this board before that the goal of the organization should be to be in position to contend for a world championship every year. For the Twins this means having exceptionally strong player development so that in-house prospects will achieve their full potential. It also means having exceptionally strong scouting so that players drafted, traded for, and signed in free agency will contribute to their full potential.
This is 2017. Old school is not going to cut it any more. Loyalty is certainly an admirable quality, but if an employee at any level is not suited for what is in the best interest of the organization it's time to part ways.

[terrydactyls]

I have no problem with the org not retaining Doug. Probably the right call.

I have a problem with Falvey or at least Levine not making that call. It's not a minor league "coach." It's a minor league manager.

Not very classy. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I'm now retired. But during my illustrious working career, I was fired, laid off, caught in a reorganization, etc. more times than Dennis Rodman has tattoes. And each time, I received the news from my immediate supervisor. I never had the CEO come down from his penthouse office to deliver the bad news. That ain't their job. Why some people think it should be any different in baseball is beyond me. It's just another business.

[strumdatjaguar]

Maybe the FO could have handled it by having a Falvine make the call, but then Dougie would have complained that a Pohlad should have made the call.  Doug's reaction was certainly not classy, and reveals why the move was probably made.  You're 42 years old and every year since you finished school you've been able to make a living playing or managing in organized baseball, almost all of it with theTwins organization.  Where's the gratitude?  At least have the class to fake some gratitude. 

[nicksaviking]

I do think the timing and not being willing to tell him why was bad. He does deserve that.

 

 

According to the disgruntled former employee.

[bird]

 

Wanted to pass along a few things I shared on Twitter. This is just me connecting some dots, I have no idea if there's anything to this ... but,

 

I remembered this story from last year in which Stephen Gonsalves kinda sold out Dougie for breaking an org rule/philosophy at the time. 

 

"I was going out with 91 pitches, and I think normally there's a Twins rule that you're not allowed to start an inning after 85 pitches," Gonsalves said. "Doug was confident in me and I appreciate that. I was waiting, watching him out of the corner of my eye in the dugout. He walked by and was sitting by the water jug, taking little glances at me."

 

That got me thinking about who he was most responsible for protecting this year. Lachlan Wells, who's still only 20, threw over 100 pitches in three-straight outings in late June. He missed all of July and most of August with a flexor mass strain. There was also a stretch in late August where Doug had Lewis Thorpe, who of course missed the prior two seasons, throw 97, 100 and 101 pitches in consecutive starts.

 

There's no questioning Doug was a winner and his players loved him, but I wouldn't be surprised if his dismissal has something to do with failure to adhere to team guidelines regarding starting pitchers. Again, just a complete guess. Really tough to come up with any other potential reasons/conspiracy theories

 

 

Despite being conjecture, this take makes sense to me. I'll add to the conjecture. His earlier suspension involved a phone conversation with Falvey, right? Given Dougie's past issues with a certain unfiltered brazenness of opinion, might he have hurt himself during this exchange? His ego has always been intact, and maybe one of the knocks against him is that it often surfaces at unopportunistic times. And was't Dougie less than gracious upon his departure from the Twins as a player? And is there a chance he wasn't retained by a number of teams after that in part because they weren't enamored with him personality-wise? I guess I'd feel better about how it was handled had one of the Falvines phoned him, but he reported to Brad Steil. Falvey didn't report to him. It feels to me that his eventual departure has been in the cards for awhile, maybe even before the new regime took over. Hope he lands on feet.

[Shaitan]

 

He didn't exactly handle losing his job to Morneau all that well either. Says a lot about him actually.

I still chuckle at his then-suggestion that he should DH while Morneau played 1B.

[Jerr]

 

MLB GMs do not make phone calls to minor league coaches who aren't having their contracts renewed. That's just not how things work. Just because someone is famous from his past career as a player doesn't mean he should get special treatment.

BUT, as a day one Twin's fan and totally into the "Twin's Way", the way this was handled???? Tells me the new front office has no concern for that history...Dougie baseball was a big thing here to US fans!!!

At least, handle the change directly management!!!! Shame on you for disrespecting our history here!!!!

 

 

p.s. after reading the whole thread, I have calmed down, but i still think due to his history, he deserved more than a minor league boss telling him, BUT, maybe it didn't happen quite that way....hope Dougie will come back to TwinsFest and stay connected some way........