Stick a fork in Santiago

[adjacent]

One thing that surprised me is that he didn't know the outfield was shifted. Isn't his responsibility to look back and see how his defense is positioned? No wander Molitor sounded unhappy

[drjim]

 

I don't know, these guys have been in the system awhile. If we're talking about some guy who's only 12 months out of HS/college I would be pretty confident that there was more remedial stuff the guys had to do before going to the big stage. And there might be some of that with Romero; perhaps it's just the superior "stuff" but the perception is always that those guys need to take more time. 

 

But Gonsalves sounds more like he's pretty close to what he's going to be, he sounds like a pitcher, not a thrower already. If anything, he sounds like Berrios, a guy who probably threw too many pitches in the minors because he knows if he keeps throwing off the plate, he'll get guys to chase regularly. That hasn't backfired on him yet, but it will. I'd like him to learn that lesson now, not next year. Learning that what you're doing now isn't going to work in the future isn't a lesson most young people understand until they've been humbled, and it doesn't look like it's a lesson he's going to learn in the minors.

 

And I don't agree that getting to the majors puts a cap on your education and development. If it is, they don't have the right coaches and instructors.

 

I don't think this accurately describes Gonsalves. At least I hope not, or he'll never make it. He needs to tighten up his command overall. If he was already a pitcher as you suggest, he'd be moved up or he just won't ever have enough stuff.

[Thrylos]

 

I think Santiago will come around. He is going through some struggles right now. But, I wouldn't stick a fork in him considering our lack of pitching depth. He was very good earlier in the season. Even if we do begin to audition the young guys there is still room for him. Why would we throw away depth when we have no depth? Because we are angry?

 

Santiago has been consistent in his brief career with the Twins:

 

2016: 5.58 ERA, 5.82 FIP, 1.418 WHIP, 3.2 BB/9, 5.4 K/9 (61.1 IP)
2017: 5.63 ERA, 6.00 FIP, 1.436 WHIP, 4 BB/9, 6.5 K/9 (70.1 IP)

 

Comparisons (and I am sticking with lefties who pitched a while) :

Career numbers with the Twins
Milone: 4.79 ERA, 4.85 FIP, 1.448 WHIP, 2.8 BB/9, 6.3 K/9 (219.2 IP)

Albers: 4.44 ERA, 4.45 FIP, 1.351 WHIP, 1.5 BB/9, 4.8 K/9 (77 IP)

Diamond: 4.43 ERA, 4.48 FIP, 1.413 WHIP, 2.3 BB/9, 4.2 K/9 (343 IP)

 

Depth?  His numbers are performance is as bad or even worse than that of those garbage pile pick ups.  The definition of replacement level that can be replaced in the waiver wire or by independent league pick ups...

[Wyotwinsfan]

While I am tired of tired of watching Santiago and Gibson get shelled and would rather see Romero or Jorge get a chance, I have a related question. Are Gibson and Santiago trying to get better or are do they think they are good right now? I read where Jack Morris learned his splitter from pitching coach Roger Craig. That is when he became a good pitcher. Frank Viola learned his change up from Johnny Padres and then he did well. Is the pitching coach working with them and they won't or can't get better or is nobody working with them?

[old nurse]

 

On an even more positive note, I bought beer. In Minnesota. On Sunday.

It came in handy for watching Santiago start.

[Thrylos]

 

It came in handy for watching Santiago start.

 

Bet there were some tears in that beer

[akmanak]

Terrible pitcher. It's ridiculous that this team is trying to win a division and keeps running this guy out to get pounded.

 

Yes, there are better options.

If they were trying to win a division they would of went made a move already.

[Mike Sixel]

 

While I am tired of tired of watching Santiago and Gibson get shelled and would rather see Romero or Jorge get a chance, I have a related question. Are Gibson and Santiago trying to get better or are do they think they are good right now? I read where Jack Morris learned his splitter from pitching coach Roger Craig. That is when he became a good pitcher. Frank Viola learned his change up from Johnny Padres and then he did well. Is the pitching coach working with them and they won't or can't get better or is nobody working with them?

 

I would guess that yes, the pitchers are working with the coaches every day on getting better. 

[Dr. Evil]

 

Santiago has been consistent in his brief career with the Twins:

 

2016: 5.58 ERA, 5.82 FIP, 1.418 WHIP, 3.2 BB/9, 5.4 K/9 (61.1 IP)
2017: 5.63 ERA, 6.00 FIP, 1.436 WHIP, 4 BB/9, 6.5 K/9 (70.1 IP)

 

Comparisons (and I am sticking with lefties who pitched a while) :

Career numbers with the Twins
Milone: 4.79 ERA, 4.85 FIP, 1.448 WHIP, 2.8 BB/9, 6.3 K/9 (219.2 IP)

Albers: 4.44 ERA, 4.45 FIP, 1.351 WHIP, 1.5 BB/9, 4.8 K/9 (77 IP)

Diamond: 4.43 ERA, 4.48 FIP, 1.413 WHIP, 2.3 BB/9, 4.2 K/9 (343 IP)

 

Depth?  His numbers are performance is as bad or even worse than that of those garbage pile pick ups.  The definition of replacement level that can be replaced in the waiver wire or by independent league pick ups...

You're post is laced with facts that make my post seem.............evil.

 

But, just for ****s and giggles, can you post the stats of this years Twins  waiver wire scrap heap fodder? It would be interesting to see how the alternatives from this group have stacked up.

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

He's not as bad as he's been lately, but I'm still hoping the Twins let him walk after this season. Even when he's pitching well he struggles to keep his pitch count under control (he's completed 7 innings only once all season.) The strain he puts on the bullpen makes him too much of a liability.

[Thrylos]

 

You're post is laced with facts that make my post seem.............evil.

 

But, just for sh%ts and giggles, can you post the stats of this years Twins  waiver wire scrap heap fodder? It would be interesting to see how the alternatives from this group have stacked up.

 

Small samples.  That's why I stuck to the number of lefties who pitched significant innings.   Not sure that one can tell much by Wilk's 10.1 innings and Turley's 9.1 innings; all worse than Santiago. 

 

If you get away from lefties, even pitchers that Twins' fans hated, like Nolasco and Pelfrey performed better than Santiago.

[old nurse]

 

You're post is laced with facts that make my post seem.............evil.

 

But, just for sh%ts and giggles, can you post the stats of this years Twins  waiver wire scrap heap fodder? It would be interesting to see how the alternatives from this group have stacked up.

Jorge  5.50 ERA

Wik 16.20

Tepesch 5.40

Turley 16.38

 

Last year

Albers  9.45 ERA

Dean  6.85

Millone  5.46

[Twodogs]

Who might that be?

Ricky Nolasco.

[old nurse]

 

 

Small samples.  That's why I stuck to the number of lefties who pitched significant innings.   Not sure that one can tell much by Wilk's 10.1 innings and Turley's 9.1 innings; all worse than Santiago. 

 

If you get away from lefties, even pitchers that Twins' fans hated, like Nolasco and Pelfrey performed better than Santiago.

Small sample sizes over the last two years, enough to know they players needed more work (Jorge, Turley) or not a longer term answer

[Richie the Rally Goat]

They absolutely need 2-3 new pichers and more minor league depth. Is that even debatable?

 

Gonsalves, Romero and Jorge can probably be the 8-10 guys going into the season.

I don't think you can count on all 3, might not hurt to try to trade for or sign some AA and AAA depth pieces too

[Dr. Evil]

 

Jorge  5.50 ERA

Wik 16.20

Tepesch 5.40

Turley 16.38

 

Last year

Albers  9.45 ERA

Dean  6.85

Millone  5.46

Add to this the in house fodder.........and off season additions...yuck.

 

Gibson 6.11

Hughes 5.72

Belisle 6.06

Breslow 5.28

Haley 6.00

[tarheeltwinsfan]

 

Jorge, Gonsalves, Romero.

 

I know some people believe that's "rushing" them, and it will "destroy" their future. I don't agree. 

 

This team needs between 4-6 starters next year. It's time to see what these guys have, or at least get them exposure this year, so they are more likely to be ready next year.

 

Clearly they have no assets to trade at the MLB level, is what we are told. There aren't exactly a ton of good FAs next year. They have said they aren't trading for rentals, only guys with years of control (who is trading those, exactly?).

 

Help comes from within, or there is not enough help.

I agree with all 5 of your points. Especially the need for young players to actually play some in the major leagues before the jitters will go away. 

[Twodogs]

I'm over this guy. Blaming his loss on "being old school and not liking shifts" just cut him now and get a "new school" thinker up here. 5.00 ERA wouldn't cut it in the "old school" either.

 

http://m.startribune.com/hector-santiago-s-struggles-continue-as-twins-fall-at-kc-in-road-trip-finale/432151833/#1

 

I'm glad Molitor didn't let it go. I'm glad he said what he said.

[drjim]

I agree with all 5 of your points. Especially the need for young players to actually play some in the major leagues before the jitters will go away.

Jitters, eh?

[Mike Sixel]

 

I agree with all 5 of your points. Especially the need for young players to actually play some in the major leagues before the jitters will go away. 

 

Well, I don't think all of their nerves will calm down, but I do think that experience in dealing with the routine and emotion will improve with exposure. 

[drjim]

Well, I don't think all of their nerves will calm down, but I do think that experience in dealing with the routine and emotion will improve with exposure.

Maybe a game or two, then talent and polish take over.

 

Berrios didn't flail his second go around last year because of nerves.

[Kwak]

 

If this is true, then the Twins need 2-3 new SP in MN next year, from outside the org, and another 2-3 new ones in AAA, from outside the org......good luck with that.

Finding 2-3 pitchers every year should be expected.  Turnover is expected. Injuries, flame outs, free agent losses are inevitable.  This is even more true for the Twins where not every (maybe only one in total) top player can be retained long-term and the rest are in 1-3 year contracts.

[drjim]

I don't think you can count on all 3, might not hurt to try to trade for or sign some AA and AAA depth pieces too

I don't think you can count on all 3 either, which is why I'd want them in the 8-10 range of the depth chart.

 

I'm sure they'll sign plenty of exciting depth too, the Tepesch and Gee of next offseason.

[kab21]

Santiago's pitch velocities tell an interesting and perhaps tragic story. Normally he has been in the 90-94 mph range with his fastball. It dropped 3-4 mph after he pitched in relief in late May. His velocity was back in his first start back after the DL but then dropped to its lowest point (85-90mph) in his latest shelling.

 

I predict he has another DL stint coming up soon. And possibly even something significantly wrong like TJ.

[kab21]

 

If this is true, then the Twins need 2-3 new SP in MN next year, from outside the org, and another 2-3 new ones in AAA, from outside the org......good luck with that.

The Twins absolutely need to add 1-2 SP from outside the org for next season (or better yet this season). And this is why I don't want to interrupt the development of Jorge, Romero and Gonsalves for this mythical 'they are going to struggle once so let's get it out of the way now' mindset. Bring them up in September is a good idea but not early July.

 

I think these 3 pitchers are the 3 AAA pitchers that you mention needing to add. One of them could even begin the season in the rotation but probably not.

[Doomtints]

 

I'm over this guy. Blaming his loss on "being old school and not liking shifts" just cut him now and get a "new school" thinker up here. 5.00 ERA wouldn't cut it in the "old school" either.

http://m.startribune.com/hector-santiago-s-struggles-continue-as-twins-fall-at-kc-in-road-trip-finale/432151833/#1

 

Back in 2009 or 2010, I recall Gordon and Gladden talking about how a pitcher with a 4.00 ERA is not a good pitcher.

What has Gladden been saying over the past year and a half with so many 5.50+ ERA pitchers on the team? It has to be aggravating.

[jimmer]

anyone surprised by how bad Santiago is?

[drjim]

The Twins absolutely need to add 1-2 SP from outside the org for next season (or better yet this season). And this is why I don't want to interrupt the development of Jorge, Romero and Gonsalves for this mythical 'they are going to struggle once so let's get it out of the way now' mindset. Bring them up in September is a good idea but not early July.

 

I think these 3 pitchers are the 3 AAA pitchers that you mention needing to add. One of them could even begin the season in the rotation but probably not.

If the front office is aggressive enough, Mejia could be another AAA starter out of the spring. It would be quite something if they added enough to push him back. They have some money and perhaps some position player surplus to work with.

 

Of course I'm also counting Hughes and May as filling the 5th starter and long man spots. If they keep Santana, they would have 2 starters to add.

[Doomtints]

 

anyone surprised by how bad Santiago is?

 

I am. Granted, I should not have been, considering he was traded for Nolasco. 

 

I see Alex Meyer has finally settled down and found the strike zone.

 

 

[kab21]

 

If the front office is aggressive enough, Mejia could be another AAA starter out of the spring. It would be quite something if they added enough to push him back. They have some money and perhaps some position player surplus to work with.

Of course I'm also counting Hughes and May as filling the 5th starter and long man spots. If they keep Santana, they would have 2 starters to add.

Imo building next year's rotation starts with adding one legit good starter and keeping Santana. That gives you 3 good starters and then hopefully one of the 3 prospects (or May after rehab) can claim a spot early next year. While hopefully someone like Hughes (or other stopgap) can not get Gibson'd in the meantime.