If then.....a trade for pitching question.

[Brandon]

I know we are in a rebuild, but if we stay in contention through June and there are several potential aces that may be available such as Greinke, Darvish, and Cueto. Do we trade for one and what prospects would it take and we be willing to give up. Seems like we have 2 solid and a 5th starter in Santana, Santiago and Hughes. If Berrios comes up and succeeds we would just need 1 more starter. I would be willing to trade a Ss, bullpen, and maybe another prospect...maybe a package of Palka, Burdi, and Vielma....or if Thorpe or Gonsalves were needed to get someone would you do it? How much cash would need to be included in a Greinke trade?....

[Brandon]

What would be fun is to try to come to a consensus agreement for a package to offer from the community. Maybe take the 3 or 4 top proposals and do a poll for the Twinsdaily pitcher to target and what we think is fair value....

[drivlikejehu]

The Twins can't trade prospects under any circumstances. These things always wind up with completely unrealistic notions anyway, a few 'C' prospects returning stars from other clubs, that sort of thing.

[drjim]

No chance I would go for a rental, but I would consider a deal like the Rangers did for Hamels, where they have multiple years of control. (Though an exact similar trade wouldn't work, as the Twins don't have the assets the Rangers did at that time)

[TheLeviathan]

Too many ifs on May 6th and too many things that could change to even speculate.

 

I'm not sure, even if this team is fringe contending, that I'd be this aggressive. 

[KirbyDome89]

Or they could just keep the prospects and sign Darvish in December....

 

Idk how in favor of trading prospects I would be, given that I think this team is still more pretender than contender.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I'm not sure, even if this team is fringe contending, that I'd be this aggressive. 

I sure wouldn't. The core of this team is going nowhere for the next two seasons.

 

If they don't improve, the team doesn't win. Pull the trigger when this team looks on the cusp of being a contender, not on the cusp of being acceptably mediocre.

[mikelink45]

I have seen the big signings of pitchers and question how many of them work out for the price paid in prospects and dollars before they regress, have an injury or just stop doing well.  Bring up the young players and coach them to succeed.

[USAFChief]

I'd be all in favor if they were in contention. The problem, even if they were, is the minor league system isn't exactly brimming with the kind of prospects needed. Much less the excess prospects.

 

Who is exciting right now in the Twins system?

[DJSim22]

I'd prefer they didn't trade any prospects, I would prefer they take an approach to be contending for several seasons than a one and done.  If they traded away their top prospects, I don't think they would have enough left to keep supplement what they have.

[DaveW]

Or they could just keep the prospects and sign Darvish in December....

 

Idk how in favor of trading prospects I would be, given that I think this team is still more pretender than contender.

Darvish won't be short on suitors and Minneapolis won't be anywhere near the top or even middle of his list.

 

The only way the Twins get him is to outbid everyone, which:

1. They won't

2. They probably shouldn't

 

I wouldn't trade away anything relevant for a rental though tbh

[KirbyDome89]

 

Darvish won't be short on suitors and Minneapolis won't be anywhere near the top or even middle of his list.

The only way the Twins get him is to outbid everyone, which:
1. They won't
2. They probably shouldn't

I wouldn't trade away anything relevant for a rental though tbh

I get that, the point was that it probably isn't the best move to dump what prospects they have for a 3 month rental and a shot at a one game wild card. 

 

No, there is no chance they actually pay for a pitcher like that. If by some miracle they decided to pry open the checkbook I can't say I would be against handing out a contract to a starting pitcher like Darvish though. 

[David HK]

I made this point in another thread, but it seems apropos for this one, too.  I like the moves the past week or so here from the FO side.  They did give a few guys one good last MLB shot to see what they truly had in them, and the proof was borne out.  DSan and Tonk are not bad guys, have a good amount of talent between them, but they didn't harness and use it to benefit the club well enough.  I hope they'll do better with a change of scenery.   It looks like those guys are only the first of the place-holders to make their exit.

 

The way to get a good starter here is going to have to be free agency.  And the way to attract someone decent is show them a decent chance to win-  a young, solid offensive and defensive corps, quality arms for back-end support in the BP- we may have them already, but timing and injuries have taken a toll.  It's like using the whole team as a showcase for picking up a quality starter- or even 2 over the winter.  Everybody wants a good payday, but every single dang guy out there wants to win more than anything.   Gotta give 'em a reason to want to make that happen here.

 

I've got no illusions about contending this year- there are just too many question marks, and too many holes that a rental starter wouldn't begin to address.  I'm all for using this season as one long audition for the young talent to show their stuff, and learn some MLB lessons.  I suffered through 198-by God-2, but I was happy to see what we had in the kids who came up- Hrbek, Gaetti, Bruno, Laudner, Frankie V and others.  They took some big lumps, but they turned into solid core for long-term contention.    We've got a lot of similar pieces, but they've gotta get up, and Molly's gotta play 'em.

 

[Darius]

I wouldn't sacrifice any good prospects this year. I'm not sure a one-and-done in the playoffs, likely at best, is worth that.

 

But, make no mistake, this team isn't going anywhere until it significantly upgrades its pitching staff. I'm not convinced they have a true ace anywhere near the majors. So, if a real playoff run is going to come in the relative short-term (1-2 years from now), they're going to have to dabble in free agency with the big boys (all "free agency destroys your franchise" fallacies aside).

[Platoon]

I made this point in another thread, but it seems apropos for this one, too.  I like the moves the past week or so here from the FO side.  They did give a few guys one good last MLB shot to see what they truly had in them, and the proof was borne out.  DSan and Tonk are not bad guys, have a good amount of talent between them, but they didn't harness and use it to benefit the club well enough.  I hope they'll do better with a change of scenery.   It looks like those guys are only the first of the place-holders to make their exit.

 

The way to get a good starter here is going to have to be free agency.  And the way to attract someone decent is show them a decent chance to win-  a young, solid offensive and defensive corps, quality arms for back-end support in the BP- we may have them already, but timing and injuries have taken a toll.  It's like using the whole team as a showcase for picking up a quality starter- or even 2 over the winter.  Everybody wants a good payday, but every single dang guy out there wants to win more than anything.   Gotta give 'em a reason to want to make that happen here.

 

I've got no illusions about contending this year- there are just too many question marks, and too many holes that a rental starter wouldn't begin to address.  I'm all for using this season as one long audition for the young talent to show their stuff, and learn some MLB lessons.  I suffered through 198-by God-2, but I was happy to see what we had in the kids who came up- Hrbek, Gaetti, Bruno, Laudner, Frankie V and others.  They took some big lumps, but they turned into solid core for long-term contention.    We've got a lot of similar pieces, but they've gotta get up, and Molly's gotta play 'em.

. I am glad to see the FO showing signs of life. I agree with those who don't want to see too many signs, i.e. trading youth. This team is likely viable in 2019, if they can acquire some SP somehow. The rest is probably available in house by next year. But it's going to have to be develop or buy, we don't have the excess prospects to trade. I still think Dozier will end up being moved for what they can get, mostly because of simple logic. They will end up with too many second base types, and he is the most valuable trade piece. Someone above mentioned making the Twins a place players want to go. While Tonkin was not good yesterday, the game was toast and Molitors removal of him for a postion player was obviously meant to embarrass Tonkin one last time on the way out the door. This seems another continuation of Molitors managerial philosophy. How does this pertain to this thread? If players have many places to chose from in FA, they are not going somewhere where the manager is not respected. And vindictive managers are seldom respected. They may be feared, but that is not the same.

[twinsnorth49]

. I am glad to see the FO showing signs of life. I agree with those who don't want to see too many signs, i.e. trading youth. This team is likely viable in 2019, if they can acquire some SP somehow. The rest is probably available in house by next year. But it's going to have to be develop or buy, we don't have the excess prospects to trade. I still think Dozier will end up being moved for what they can get, mostly because of simple logic. They will end up with too many second base types, and he is the most valuable trade piece. Someone above mentioned making the Twins a place players want to go. While Tonkin was not good yesterday, the game was toast and Molitors removal of him for a postion player was obviously meant to embarrass Tonkin one last time on the way out the door. This seems another continuation of Molitors managerial philosophy. How does this pertain to this thread? If players have many places to chose from in FA, they are not going somewhere where the manager is not respected. And vindictive managers are seldom respected. They may be feared, but that is not the same.

Tonkin took care of embarrassing himself, he didn't need Mollie's help.

[Don't Feed the Greed Guy]

IF this team were to make a push toward the postseason, I'd liken it to 1987, when Frank Viola (Ervin Santana), and Bert Blyleven (Hector Santiago) carried the team with "Joe Bag-of-Donuts" guys at the back end of the rotation. How lucky were the Two-Man-Rotation Twins? Their pythagorean winning percentage for 1987 was 79-83 (786 runs scored, 806 runs allowed).

 

The only "major" trade was for Don Baylor, when the Twins sent a "player-to-be-named later" a "Enrique Rios" who never made it above A ball. Players like Allan Anderson were kept in the fold, and played a role in supporting a much stronger 1991 team, when the front office DID make moves for players like Jack Morris.

 

The front office eventually did trade Viola (again, see Santana) for Rick Aguilera. That's where/when the Twins should make moves, by either trading Santana and Brian Dozier this offseason. Or perhaps before the deadline if the Cinderella Slipper doesn't fit the 2017 twins like it did in 1987.

 

Don't trade prospects like Nick Gordon and others now. Let them be the Chuck Knoblauchs' and Scott Ericksons' for a much stronger run in two or three years.

[Riverbrian]

If a collection of ball players surprise everyone and play themselves into contention. 

 

A GM should always support them by providing them what they need to finish the job. If he doesn't... he is either too egotistical or too timid for the position.  

 

If a GM thought or said... "Good job everyone but you don't have the talent to be doing what you are doing so I'm going to do nothing and wait for your eventual collapse". 

 

The GM would be too egotistical for the position and should be removed immediately. 

 

If you are in contention and you have a hole.

 

You fill it. 

 

 

[USAFChief]

If a collection of ball players surprise everyone and play themselves into contention. 

 

A GM should always support them by providing them what they need to finish the job. If he doesn't... he is either too egotistical or too timid for the position.  

 

If a GM thought or said... "Good job everyone but you don't have the talent to be doing what you are doing so I'm going to do nothing and wait for your eventual collapse". 

 

The GM would be too egotistical for the position and should be removed immediately. 

 

If you are in contention and you have a hole.

 

You fill it.

 

Particularly when the oft stated reason for not doing so is, "but next year, well, next year you WILL have the talent."

[drivlikejehu]

 

Particularly when the oft stated reason for not doing so is, "but next year, well, next year you WILL have the talent."

 

I hope you're not suggesting that, if the Twins were hanging around the Wild Card picture before the trade deadline, that you would deal away the Twins top prospects. 

 

This is of course completely academic since no front office would even consider organizational suicide of that magnitude.

[Vanimal46]

At what point in time would people be comfortable trading away prospects for immediate help? Would it only be if the Twins were leading the division and/or wildcard on July 31? Perhaps a game or 2 out of a playoff spot?

 

I would be on board trading prospects for immediate MLB help. Especially given that Gonsalves has already lost 1+ month of development time so far, and Romero still has another year or so before he would be deemed ready.

[USAFChief]

I hope you're not suggesting that, if the Twins were hanging around the Wild Card picture before the trade deadline, that you would deal away the Twins top prospects. 

 

This is of course completely academic since no front office would even consider organizational suicide of that magnitude.

Depending on the return, of course, I am indeed suggesting that. It's not organizational suicide, and teams do it all the time.

 

It's one of the things that can be, should be, and often is done with prospects. Use them to win baseball games.

[amjgt]

 

If a collection of ball players surprise everyone and play themselves into contention. 

 

A GM should always support them by providing them what they need to finish the job. If he doesn't... he is either too egotistical or too timid for the position.  

 

If a GM thought or said... "Good job everyone but you don't have the talent to be doing what you are doing so I'm going to do nothing and wait for your eventual collapse". 

 

The GM would be too egotistical for the position and should be removed immediately. 

 

If you are in contention and you have a hole.

 

You fill it. 

 

In a different way, Thad Levine said something similar when he was on the broadcast during the Rangers series. 

 

Basically, if the players have put us in a position to contend, then it's our (the F.O.) job to make sure they have everything they need to succeed this season. 

 

He could've given a canned answer to the question, but answered it in a way that left me encouraged. 

[Riverbrian]

 

I hope you're not suggesting that, if the Twins were hanging around the Wild Card picture before the trade deadline, that you would deal away the Twins top prospects. 

 

This is of course completely academic since no front office would even consider organizational suicide of that magnitude.

 

Does it have to organizational suicide?

 

Or can we just trade a prospect or two to fill a hole? 

[USAFChief]

A). I truly believe most prospects are overvalued.

 

2). Waiting around for the stars to magically align and your minor league system to provide everything you need is how you spend decades wandering the wilderness wondering why the stars magically align for other teams but never yours.

 

D). I'm old and impatient.

[drivlikejehu]

 

Depending on the return, of course, I am indeed suggesting that. It's not organizational suicide, and teams do it all the time.

It's one of the things that can be, should be, and often is done with prospects. Use them to win baseball games.

 

Teams trade prospects when they are a legitimate contender. The Twins are not, just like they weren't in 2015, even if some stars align and they have a decent record most of the way.

 

The Twins could trade their entire minor league system and still not have anything close to a championship-caliber MLB team. 

[Riverbrian]

 

A). I truly believe most prospects are overvalued.

2). Waiting around for the stars to magically align and your minor league system to provide everything you need is how you spend decades wandering the wilderness wondering why the stars magically align for other teams but never yours.

D). I'm old and impatient.

 

If you are in contention... You're future is here!!!

 

Anybody who ignores a playoff possibility in 2017 because it might screw up a playoff possibility in 2019 shouldn't be in the big boy chair. 

[amjgt]

I'd settle for a #4 starter. 

 

It makes sense to look at teams that didn't think they were going to be out of it, but are close to being out of it.

 

Toronto

Marco Estrada (Rental, but more than a #4)

Liriano (Rental)

 

KC

Ian Kennedy (Expensive non-rental)

 

SF

Jeff Samardzija (Expensive non-rental)

 

Atl

RA Dickey (Rental)

 

 

[USAFChief]

Teams trade prospects when they are a legitimate contender. The Twins are not, just like they weren't in 2015, even if some stars align and they have a decent record most of the way.

 

The Twins could trade their entire minor league system and still not have anything close to a championship-caliber MLB team.

 

But they were a legitimate contender in 2015. They went into the last weekend of the season in contention.

 

And they also could zealously guard their entire minor league system and still not have anything close to a championship caliber MLB team, now OR in the future.

 

That's the point...baseball is pretty hard to predict. So when you don't have to try to predict...you're IN contention, ****ing put on your big boy pants and ****ing go for it.

[Platoon]

Tonkin took care of embarrassing himself, he didn't need Mollie's help.

Not really. He may (did) pitch poorly, and has. He also was nowhere near normally being removed in that type of game, nor had thrown too many pitches. Basically a standard job of BP pitching by a Twins reliever. And a postion player was marched out there in his stead. That was done solely for one reason. Whether they sugar coat it as making a statement, or whether it was purely vindictive is a moot point. Molitors assertion after the release that Tonkin had few chances to pitch in leveraged situations was inane. He's the one who didn't present those opportunities. I am not attempting to defend Tonkins performance(s), they weren't good. But there are class ways to do things, and then there is the Molitor Way. And, I am pointing out that Molitor is definitely on a list of managers that I could see as being very difficult to play for. There is absolutely no way this team will be successful, and I mean successful on a national level, with Molitor in charge!