Tonkin

[High heat]

Has anyone else seen enough of this guy? Yes he throws hard but you can't blow it by big league hitters and it's straight. The guy is so slow to the plate everyone can steal a bag off of him. Let's cut bait and send him down, no ones picking him up.

[operation mindcrime]

Me too! \m/

[The Wise One]

The Twins destroyed his confidence last year by using him inappropriately as the long  reliever when they should have been have force feeding him high leverage situations to have him learn. If he gets released and does well for someone else for a couple innings it will be Fien all over again. Explant tongue

[HitInAPinch]

The Twins are at the point where they need 'someone' in the bullpen to step up.  I'm hoping Duffey will be that guy.  He's got the stuff.  

 

If Tonkin's fastball had some movement, it might be a different story.  Still seems pretty straight. 

[The Wise One]

 

The Twins are at the point where they need 'someone' in the bullpen to step up.  I'm hoping Duffey will be that guy.  He's got the stuff.  

 

If Tonkin's fastball had some movement, it might be a different story.  Still seems pretty straight. 

http://www.twinkietown.com/2016/8/10/12414438/michael-tonkin-and-the-trade-off

 

the myth repeated so often it becomes fact
 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Maybe it's just me but I'm ready to see roughly half the bullpen be replaced. I don't really care in what order.

[Comrade Bork]

Lolol, destroyed his confidence... Right. So his confidence would be higher if the twins let him get rocked in high leverage situations instead of getting rocked in low leverage situations? He gets rocked in all situations. You can't give up a Grand Slam to a guy in the bottom half batting .175, I don't care if we were already down 7

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

http://www.twinkietown.com/2016/8/10/12414438/michael-tonkin-and-the-trade-off

 

the myth repeated so often it becomes fact
 

 

I watched the abomination that was a game yesterday and got to see Tonkin pitch. Nothing about his fastball screamed straight as an arrow as is often repeated here.  I think this article is spot on.

 

He's younger, so probably not the first guy I'd want to cut, but he's definitely on the hot seat in my opinion.

[drjim]

Lolol, destroyed his confidence... Right. So his confidence would be higher if the twins let him get rocked in high leverage situations instead of getting rocked in low leverage situations? He gets rocked in all situations. You can't give up a Grand Slam to a guy in the bottom half batting .175, I don't care if we were already down 7

Appropriate response. His confidence has mostly been destroyed by not being that good, not by being primarily used in low leverage situations.

[drjim]

Maybe it's just me but I'm ready to see roughly half the bullpen be replaced. I don't really care in what order.

Chargois/Burdi/Melotakis aren't quite there, but they're close.

[big dog]

 

Maybe it's just me but I'm ready to see roughly half the bullpen be replaced. I don't really care in what order.

Yeah, for me Tonkin is on the list.  Gotta start somewhere, I'd start with him and/or Breslow.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Appropriate response. His confidence has mostly been destroyed by not being that good, not by being primarily used in low leverage situations.

I won't vigorously defend Tonkin, but I think the argument is less about the leverage messing with his confidence, and more about the role he's been asked to fill having a different set of objectives which seem at odds with his strengths. The last year-plus, Tonkin has been consistently asked to be a long reliever. I do wonder if he has tried to economize his pitches in those appearances, and if it has held him back a bit.

 

That said, I am far, far more disappointed in our overall bullpen construction than I am in any potential mishandling of Tonkin.

[Linus]

The big problem with Tonkin is that he is not very good. He's never shown any reason to hang onto him forever.

[drjim]

I won't vigorously defend Tonkin, but I think the argument is less about the leverage messing with his confidence, and more about the role he's been asked to fill having a different set of objectives which seem at odds with his strengths. The last year-plus, Tonkin has been consistently asked to be a long reliever. I do wonder if he has tried to economize his pitches in those appearances, and if it has held him back a bit.

 

That said, I am far, far more disappointed in our overall bullpen construction than I am in any potential mishandling of Tonkin.

I understand the complaint, it's always been nonsense. The Twins haven't exactly had a good pen at any point of Tonkin's career. If he was taking care of his business he would have been moved into a bigger role. Any reliever is going to be better if they can go short outings against same handed batters, but that's not always realistic bullpen construction.

 

Tonkin has hung around because the team sees something, but he has never performed at a high level in any type of stint.

[bighat]

 

http://www.twinkietown.com/2016/8/10/12414438/michael-tonkin-and-the-trade-off

 

the myth repeated so often it becomes fact
 

 

Good point there!   "Gibson is a solid starter" is another myth that's been forced down our throats for years.  Same with Trevor May, even when he finishes every year with a 5+ ERA.  

 

We need to remove our Twins Fan Glasses and see things from the outside.  If we do that, it's pretty clear that Tonkin stinks, May underperforms, Gibson is garbage.  I can't think of another team that would want Rogers on their staff.  Duffey at this point is a borderline major leaguer who might find a role in long relief if he improves.  

 

Lots of question marks in a bullpen that appears to be on its way to a heavy workload.  Tonkin will clear waivers.  If he doesn't, good riddance. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I understand the complaint, it's always been nonsense. The Twins haven't exactly had a good pen at any point of Tonkin's career. If he was taking care of his business he would have been moved into a bigger role. Any reliever is going to be better if they can go short outings against same handed batters, but that's not always realistic bullpen construction.

So you make a reliever prove himself in a role he's ill-suited for, before you put him in a role that better matches his abilities?  Got it.  You also endorse repeatedly letting Ryan O'Rourke fail against RHB before you are willing to use him as a strict LOOGY?

 

I made it pretty clear I don't think Tonkin is any great talent, and I am sure he stood a decent chance to fail regardless of role, but the Twins haven't exactly helped him or much of anyone in the pen.  Look at their whole bullpen construction, it's consistently a mess.  In addition to the sins of past years, now we have Duffey in to face 3 batters, installing Kintzler as the closer and bringing in Belisle and Breslow to set up, etc.

[bighat]

 

I understand the complaint, it's always been nonsense. 

 

Agreed.  We can build excuses for Tonkin until the cows come home.  Fact is he seems to be a below-average pitcher, and that's the end of the story. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

And at this point, it's not even about making excuses for Tonkin -- if he's this bad, why is he still on the team, in his second year out of options?  Why didn't we give his roster spot to a new reliever over the offseason, or at least roll the dice on a waiver claim?

 

Either way you look at it, the Twins seem to be bungling this one 100%.  I guess I don't care how you apportion that between mis-using Tonkin or waiting too long to cut him.

[drjim]

So you make a reliever prove himself in a role he's ill-suited for, before you put him in a role that better matches his abilities? Got it. You also endorse repeatedly letting Ryan O'Rourke fail against RHB before you are willing to use him as a strict LOOGY?

 

I made it pretty clear I don't think Tonkin is any great talent, and I am sure he stood a decent chance to fail regardless of role, but the Twins haven't exactly helped him or much of anyone in the pen. Look at their whole bullpen construction, it's consistently a mess. In addition to the sins of past years, now we have Duffey in to face 3 batters, installing Kintzler as the closer and bringing in Belisle and Breslow to set up, etc.

It's more that he's best suited for a role that doesn't exist in reality.

 

It's not like he never got one inning stints to prove himself in low leverage situations.

[drjim]

And at this point, it's not even about making excuses for Tonkin -- if he's this bad, why is he still on the team, in his second year out of options? Why didn't we give his roster spot to a new reliever over the offseason, or at least roll the dice on a waiver claim?

 

Either way you look at it, the Twins seem to be bungling this one 100%. I guess I don't care how you apportion that between mis-using Tonkin or waiting too long to cut him.

Choice is between cutting him and giving him another chance to make it work. I'd guess the new management wanted to give him one more crack. I doubt he lasts much longer.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Tonkin has hung around because the team sees something, but he has never performed at a high level in any type of stint.

 

 

It's not like he never got one inning stints to prove himself in low leverage situations.

 

I won't argue this too much more, because I don't really care, but the first two months of 2016, Tonkin was rather effective.

 

How did the Twins respond?  By continuing to throw him out there for multiple innings in low leverage situations...

[Vanimal46]

Tonkin is certainly on the list of relievers that need to be removed this season. Pick your poison for who should be first, second, third, and fourth to go. 

This has been said in other threads, and becoming a dead horse... Molitor does not trust him. Hasn't trusted him in 1.5 years. Why keep delaying the inevitable? 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Choice is between cutting him and giving him another chance to make it work. I'd guess the new management wanted to give him one more crack. I doubt he lasts much longer.

The new management didn't need to drag this out that long, it's not like Tonkin was some great unknown whom they had never seen in person.  They cut Adam Brett Walker before they even got their office furniture moved in.

 

I'm glad they didn't just cut him in favor of unnecessarily adding a no-upside guy like Wimmers, as some were suggesting in spring training.  But it still boggles the mind that they've thought so little of him for so long that they haven't found a better use of that roster spot in all this time.

[drjim]

The new management didn't need to drag this out that long, it's not like Tonkin was some great unknown whom they had never seen in person. They cut Adam Brett Walker before they even got their office furniture moved in.

 

I'm glad they didn't just cut him in favor of unnecessarily adding a no-upside guy like Wimmers, as some were suggesting in spring training. But it still boggles the mind that they've thought so little of him for so long that they haven't found a better use of that roster spot in all this time.

A warm body reliever with a little upside making the minimum isn't a terrible use of the roster spot. Would obviously be significantly better if there were options involved.

 

I thought about Wimmers, but mostly because I thought Haley was a zero and they would need a more traditional long man.

[beckmt]

Part of the Tonkin issue is use.  He is not a multi inning reliever.  Twins have too many of one inning types and Tonkin is the bottom of the totem pole.  Let's start bringing up the future and send Tonkin on his way.

If Tonkin can be effective elsewhere is will speak volumes about Molitor and his pitching coaches.  That would be a side benefit to find out.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

A warm body reliever with a little upside making the minimum isn't a terrible use of the roster spot. Would obviously be significantly better if there were options involved.

But when you've already exhausted your evaluation and development opportunities, it takes a lot of luster out of that warm body reliever.  This is Tonkin's fifth year on the 40-man roster, and he's been in the upper minors or MLB that entire time -- not even a single DL stint!  And we didn't even have a pitching or bullpen coach change this winter.

 

There are worse uses of a roster spot, and the Twins have been guilty of that at times too, but that doesn't mean this was a good use of one, knowing what we know.

[mazeville]

 

Maybe it's just me but I'm ready to see roughly half the bullpen be replaced. I don't really care in what order.

 

Yep. If I'm the Twins I absolutely overhaul the bullpen right now. And I would do it with young guys like Chargois, Burdi, etc. 

 

I watched every bit of the Twins' awful 8th inning last night simply so I could see Byron Buxton bat the next inning. It was terrible. Good God.

 

And then Buxton walked. Not bad. But would have been nice to see the kid run.

[David HK]

 

I won't vigorously defend Tonkin, but I think the argument is less about the leverage messing with his confidence, and more about the role he's been asked to fill having a different set of objectives which seem at odds with his strengths. The last year-plus, Tonkin has been consistently asked to be a long reliever. I do wonder if he has tried to economize his pitches in those appearances, and if it has held him back a bit.

That said, I am far, far more disappointed in our overall bullpen construction than I am in any potential mishandling of Tonkin.

I agree completely.  Tonk is high on the list of "younger" guys that have been jerked around/used inappropriately/spun back and forth on the Rochester Shuffle.  There's no way this guy should be asked for more than 1 inning.  And I don't buy the "straight" angle; it seems he's got plenty of movement, he just doesn't move it into places it won't get ROCKED!   

 

I've been in the guy's corner for a while now, but even though he's suffered from the above trifecta of Twinkie miscast/misuse, if you're a legit MLB'er, you've got to somehow rise to the occasion, and more than just occasional-ly.  Whether or not you're in the proper role, or your manager doesn't trust you in situations, or whatever the case, you've got to pitch your ass off, and get some good results.

 

As much as I want to keep supporting the guy, IMHO, The FO should bite the bullet, take the risk, and send him down.  This season is already about letting the young hitters hit, and auditioning pitchers to go along with them.  

 

I think it's about time for a "Gulfa" Tonkin Resolution.  

[Mike Sixel]

My thoughts on Tonkin:

 

1. I have no issue with him going up and down between here and MN, that's what options are for. IMO, that's how they should use RPs, and is my biggest issue with this one, no one with options hardly.

 

2. I don't like that they use him for multiple innings. It doesn't work for him.

 

3. I can't comment on the actual effectiveness of his pitching.

 

4. Molitor doesn't trust him, and won't use him. Why keep him?

[TheLeviathan]

If only there had been a period of time in which we could have, spitballing here, added players who were available to our team.  You know, guys who might be free to sign with new teams or something......