Tonkin

[mikelink45]

This should really be about more than Tonkin - I am not his fan, but I remember the anguish on TD when we wanted  him to be given a chance.   He has not risen to the challenge once he got it and I do not know why, but I do know we have a miserable bullpen.  Kinzler seems to holding his own, but there isn't much else that gives me confidence.  

The real request I have is for them to start some mix and match tests and put in some young arms and see what we got.  What do we have to lose?  Does anyone still have spring training rosy glasses that put us in the playoffs?

[John Kelsey]

They have plenty of options in the minors. Chargois, Hildenberger, Burdi, Melotakis, etc. are all healthy now and performing well. 

 

I suspect there are some health and workload concerns with a few of the above mentioned guys but I've seen enough mediocrity in the pen already. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

They have plenty of options in the minors. Chargois, Hildenberger, Burdi, Melotakis, etc. are all healthy now and performing well. 

 

I suspect there are some health and workload concerns with a few of the above mentioned guys but I've seen enough mediocrity in the pen already. 

 

if there are workload limits, let's get those innings in MN, not AA ball....

[diehardtwinsfan]

Honestly, the way Hildenberger has pitched the last few years, I'm a bit surprised they don't 60 day O'Rourke and give him a shot.  My fear is he's going to be the next Slama/Tonkin. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

The Tonkin conundrum is real - he seems to have talent and throws hard, but when he gets to pitch he sucks more often than not. I personally don't think his alleged "misuse" is a legitimate excuse, but it doesn't matter - he just isn't a good pitcher at this point in his career and it's now or never for him. The only issue should be whether we have someone in AAA ready to take his place. When Chargois is ready, DFA Tonkin and bring him up. They are probably bringing up Boshers while Santiago is on the bereavement list. When Santiago comes back, maybe Boshers stays if he pitches like he did last time and Tonkin goes. He's the first one gone from the bullpen.     

 

I'd send out Breslow first, but ya....but then, I'd have gone with some of these young guys last year, let alone this year.

[Respy]

Tonkin's scouting report from Perfect Game in 2007 is still spot on:

 

"He has a tall, slender build with long arms and legs. Tonkin throws from a high energy, multi-part delivery that provides loads of deception to the hitter but which is going to be difficult to maintain with ideal consistency. All hitters see coming at them are flying elbows and knees before some nasty stuff comes out of Tonkin's extended 3/4's release point. The worrisome part of Tonkin's delivery is the lack of front side leverage from his upper body and the hard recoil he has on release. He does seem to repeat is delivery/release point well and threw strikes with an idea. Tonkin's fastball was 90-93 mph and had nasty late sinking action at the plate. He complimented that with a sharp and big slurve type slider out of the same release point at 78 mph. There were a ton of swings and misses against Tonkin and those hitters who managed to make contact beat the ball into the ground. It looked like no one enjoyed hitting against him. It will be interesting watching what could be a continuing saga of Tonkin's delivery/mechanics as they project against his raw stuff."

 

The fastball is up a few ticks, but his mechanics and recoil have always looked messed up to me.  Unless he can find some consistency, he'll never have success in the MLB.

[gocgo]

Never been a fan of Moonshot Tonkin.  I just don't see any movement on the fastball other than it moving over the fence really fast.  I think he's a great candidate to move down/cut/trade (not happening).

[Craig Arko]

I blame him for the Vietnam War.

[Rosterman]

 

Good point there!   "Gibson is a solid starter" is another myth that's been forced down our throats for years.  Same with Trevor May, even when he finishes every year with a 5+ ERA.  

 

We need to remove our Twins Fan Glasses and see things from the outside.  If we do that, it's pretty clear that Tonkin stinks, May underperforms, Gibson is garbage.  I can't think of another team that would want Rogers on their staff.  Duffey at this point is a borderline major leaguer who might find a role in long relief if he improves.  

 

Lots of question marks in a bullpen that appears to be on its way to a heavy workload.  Tonkin will clear waivers.  If he doesn't, good riddance. 

You are saying it right. Would another team want this guy on their staff, or in the front of their bullpen. That is pretty much how the Twins have to address ALL their players and prospects going forwards. Right now, WHO on the team would someone actively trade for at this point, and would you gat something better in return than you have in the pipeline (assuming you'd get prospects today rather than proven major league guys). They also have to have a short leash on some guys who are sitll under the radar (Danny Santana, for one, Rossario for another). And we have to see just what we do have going forth. You get let a prospect flail in the big leagues (look at Buxton, look at Berrios) and you know THAT THE MAJORITY of guys take a season or two to get to where they will be. Not everyone is a Trout, or a Joe Mauer. And speaking of Mauer...almost thought the team lineup alst night was a good choice (with a lameduck DH). I mean, if you aren't playing Joe at first,play him at DH. Isn't that the plan? With two off days in the works, no need to start giving people a rest two-dozen games into the season. Unless you are not producing.

 

[Doomtints]

I feel everyone's frustration. 

 

I know we have been telling each other to be patient for six years now, but I have a feeling that problems like this will get fixed going forward.

 

Tonkin was good until last year so the Twins made the smart move to see if last year was an aberration.

[bird]

 

They have plenty of options in the minors. Chargois, Hildenberger, Burdi, Melotakis, etc. are all healthy now and performing well. 

 

I suspect there are some health and workload concerns with a few of the above mentioned guys but I've seen enough mediocrity in the pen already. 

 

 

People tend to either forget or ignore what's been going on with this group of relievers. The operative word in your first sentence is "now", and that word might still be premature for a couple of these prospects who are thankfully beginning to get their sea legs after long absences. It gets a little tiring to read comments that hint that guys like Burdi and Melotakis have been needlessly languishing for a long time and should have been promoted months ago. None of the prospects we're talking about were a better option for this bullpen at the beginning of the year than the players who made the team. None of them, even Shaggy. I'm not sure Hildenberger doesn't surface here and look like an even dumber idea than Tonkin.

 

These prospects will be here soon. They're not still in the minors because the Twins field staff is making a handful of simultaneously stupid decisions about them.

[Mike Sixel]

Soon...soon....soon. that's what I read last year, and the year before. How long is soon? Remember when people here said Houston and the Cubs weren't ahead of teh Twins' rebuild (some even said that about Houston this year). If they are healthy, and part of the future, there is no reason for Breslow or Tonkin to be here instead of them. IMO.

[Shaitan]

The horse is pretty dead at this point, but why should Tonkin essentially get a promotion (from back of bullpen to front of bullpen) for being bad at his job? You have to perform every day, not just in "leverage situations."

 

He might have the physical tools, but he's not putting it all together. It's kind of like the endless Hicks argument.

 

To say a healthy young athlete can't pitch 2 innings is ridiculous to me. We're talking 40 pitches, not 70. He's mop-up, Haley/Tepesch is long relief. 

 

With Pressly struggling, now is Tonkin's chance to move up. If yesterday was any indication...

 

[drjim]

Relievers from the minors will be up soon. And it will be glorious.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Relievers from the minors will be up soon. And it will be glorious.

 

I have no idea, but "everyone" thought Berrios being up would be glorious, including the Twins. You won't know unless you try. Unlike Breslow and Tonkin ....

[bird]

 

Soon...soon....soon. that's what I read last year, and the year before. How long is soon? Remember when people here said Houston and the Cubs weren't ahead of teh Twins' rebuild (some even said that about Houston this year). If they are healthy, and part of the future, there is no reason for Breslow or Tonkin to be here instead of them. IMO.

 

 

Well, Mike, I suppose they could have brought Burdi and Melo up last year even though they couldn't pitch due to injury. The Cubs and the Astros have zero relevance to a discussion about Tonkin, or about the readiness of Wimmers, Hildenberger, Melo, Shaggy, Burdi, Reed, Jay, Bard, Tepesch, or any other prospect to be a better alternative. 

 

You've been wrong about there being absolutely no reason for Breslow and Tonkin to be here instead of any one of these guys mentioned above. At least according to the Twins field people. The good news? You're probably about to be right.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Setting aside Burdi and Chargois, if that bigger group of guys like Hildenberger are really not any better than the current options, promote them anyway. We might find a pleasant surprise among them, like Thielbar. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Setting aside Burdi and Chargois, if that bigger group of guys like Hildenberger are really not any better than the current options, promote them anyway. We might find a pleasant surprise among them, like Thielbar. 

 

Right, there were healthy options last year.

 

As far as "the field staff decided, so they are right", well, that's an appeal to authority. If the field staff was infallible, I'd guess we'd have seen better results the last few years.

[yarnivek1972]

Agreed. We can build excuses for Tonkin until the cows come home. Fact is he seems to be a below-average pitcher, and that's the end of the story.

Problematically the Twins have very few ABOVE average pitchers.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Problematically the Twins have very few ABOVE average pitchers.

 

I'm not sure they have enough average pitchers right now. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

I have come to the realization that Moonshot Mike even in mop up duty doesn't seem to get that many outs.

I think I have started this exact same thread about three times already on TD. I was bored with Moonshot Mike Tonkin's place on the roster each of the last two years. Thing is it's not like the relievers in Rochester or Chatanooga are tearing it up. Moonshot doesn't get it done, but neither are the potential replacements.

 

You would think some of those guys down there would want to get to the show. It isn't just Tonkin that is itching to be replaced, there are many candidates.

 

Twins definitely have a few placeholders like Tonkin, Breslow, sometimes Pressly and Besile that could be replaced. Problem is none of the young guys are seizing on this opportunity to show they belong in the show as the replacements.

 

It would be nice if one or two of those guys in AAA or AA would really start to put it together. It's not like there is not opportunity here for the Twins, multiple relievers have shown they are not doing well in the majors, would be nice if a few of those guys would step up and take the underachievers spots. Take their spots and actually have some success that is.

 

It is true, other than Chargois, no one forced their hand (or was healthy) last year. That said, they haven't been overly aggressive this year, imo.

[bird]

 

Right, there were healthy options last year.

 

As far as "the field staff decided, so they are right", well, that's an appeal to authority. If the field staff was infallible, I'd guess we'd have seen better results the last few years.

 

 

Who were these healthy options last year that got passed by? I want names. 

 

And the list as of April 1, 2017. Who was healthy that would have inarguably been a better choice?

 

And no, stop that, that is NOT an appeal to authority. No one said "so they are right." However, i will suggest that we should acknowledge our own ignorance, yours and mine alike. We so often state opinions in a tone as if it's so obvious we're right and the other guy is a dunderhead.

 

Who are we to say a sound judgment wasn't made that Tonkin was a better bet at season's start (and it is a bet) than, say, Hildenberger?

 

We can lament the results without always finding fault with a decision. Avoiding fault-finding has nothing to do with some sort of appeal to authority. That said, I admit it, I trust the judgment of the Twins field staff a lot more that the opinion about a decision from my pals here on TD, and I can do this without pretending the Twins never screw up..

 

 

[bird]

 

We can build excuses for Tonkin until the cows come home.  Fact is he seems to be a below-average pitcher, and that's the end of the story. 

 

Exactly.

 

Looking at it in context, if we recall that Tonkin was drafted in the 40th round, we might think of him as a Twins success story instead of as just another example of draft and development failure.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Who were these healthy options last year that got passed by? I want names. 

 

And the list as of April 1, 2017. Who was healthy that would have inarguably been a better choice?

 

And no, stop that, that is NOT an appeal to authority. No one said "so they are right." However, i will suggest that we should acknowledge our own ignorance, yours and mine alike. We so often state opinions in a tone as if it's so obvious we're right and the other guy is a dunderhead.

 

Who are we to say a sound judgment wasn't made that Tonkin was a better bet at season's start (and it is a bet) than, say, Hildenberger?

 

We can lament the results without always finding fault with a decision. Avoiding fault-finding has nothing to do with some sort of appeal to authority. That said, I admit it, I trust the judgment of the Twins field staff a lot more that the opinion about a decision from my pals here on TD, and I can do this without pretending the Twins never screw up..

 

if it's not obvious these are opinions of a person that doesn't work in baseball, and not facts, I can't help....

 

healthy options last year?

 

I would have called up Hildenberger. Jake Reed. Would have to look for other names later but those are off the top of my head. 

[Mike Sixel]

In any event, we are off topic. If Molitor won't play/trust Tonkin, one of them needs to go....and Molitor isn't going anywhere right now.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

We so often state opinions in a tone as if it's so obvious we're right and the other guy is a dunderhead.

It's my opinion that mediocre relief pitchers grow on trees.

 

 

[drjim]

if it's not obvious these are opinions of a person that doesn't work in baseball, and not facts, I can't help....

 

healthy options last year?

 

I would have called up Hildenberger. Jake Reed. Would have to look for other names later but those are off the top of my head.

For the countless times you've criticized the front office for not calling up young guys last year that's the best you got?

[yarnivek1972]

After Chargois, Hildenberger would probably be next in line. I would probably give him until Memorial Day. This is his first stint above AA.

Reed will just need to prove he's healthy. His stuff is already MLB level. None of the other AAA relievers are worth a look. The starters are doing well. Tepesch is already up and everyone assumes Berrios will be up on the 6th. Hurlbut is doing well also. Better than Tepesch actually. From AA, Nik Turley is likely going to be promoted in a week or two. If he dominates AAA the way he has AA, he could be up in July. Fernando Romero stays in AA all year I think. Odds are he will be limited to 120-130 innings anyway. Melotakis should already be in AAA IMO. He could be at the MLB level this year. Maybe by August. Burdi and Van Steensel will probably get midseason promos to AAA and depending on the direction of the team, be September call ups.

[Mike Sixel]

 

For the countless times you've criticized the front office for not calling up young guys last year that's the best you got?

 

young RPs off the top of my head, without 1 second thought, that's the list I was sure was healthy all year. I would have called up Berrios earlier. I would have considered Gonsalves to get his feet wet. I would have tried Wimmers from the beginning of the year. Frankly, I'd have to look at rosters and other things to give you a full list, something which seems silly, now that htey have a new FO.

[Mike Sixel]

 

After Chargois, Hildenberger would probably be next in line. I would probably give him until Memorial Day. This is his first stint above AA.
Reed will just need to prove he's healthy. His stuff is already MLB level. None of the other AAA relievers are worth a look. The starters are doing well. Tepesch is already up and everyone assumes Berrios will be up on the 6th. Hurlbut is doing well also. Better than Tepesch actually. From AA, Nik Turley is likely going to be promoted in a week or two. If he dominates AAA the way he has AA, he could be up in July. Fernando Romero stays in AA all year I think. Odds are he will be limited to 120-130 innings anyway. Melotakis should already be in AAA IMO. He could be at the MLB level this year. Maybe by August. Burdi and Van Steensel will probably get midseason promos to AAA and depending on the direction of the team, be September call ups.

 

IMO, if Melo and Burdi are healthy, and the RP in MN look like this, I'd be disappointed if they weren't here by June or July.