The Theory of DFAing Joe Mauer?

[Squirrel]

Agreed, but then they need a RF or LF to replace him.....I've often felt he matures into Morneau, with more speed.

Wasn't first where they initially slotted him, then moved him to outfield? Or was he always outfield, but given reps at first? I read so many different things I am easily confused.

[laloesch]

 

Agreed, but then they need a RF or LF to replace him.....I've often felt he matures into Morneau, with more speed.

 

If Palka continues to progress he's a RF.  That would free up Kepler to move to 1st.  At least they have the luxury of time at the moment. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Wasn't first where they initially slotted him, then moved him to outfield? Or was he always outfield, but given reps at first? I read so many different things I am easily confused.

Kepler was outfield first, with later reps at first:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.cgi?id=kepler001max#standard_fielding::none

[Taildragger8791]

 

Here's an off the wall question....

 

Are the Twins better off with Dozier at 1B, Polanco at 2B, and the new SS.....

 

or...

 

Mauer at 1B, Dozier at 2B, and either Polanco or the new SS

 

I'm not sure the answer is obvious right now.

 

edit:

Polanco has the same wRC+ as Mauer, but plays 2B, not 1B. Dozier kills Mauer on offense. We assume new SS kills Polanco on defense.

 

So, what is the value of a much better defensive SS, replacing a 1 WAR Mauer, basically?

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to move Sano across the diamond and shift Polanco to 3rd, then slot in your shiny new SS? That improves the defense at both positions on the left side while massively improving the 1B production. The only tradeoff is a hit to SS offense, which few teams are great at anyways.

 

[gil4]

 

"No trade" protection indeed affects waivers.  For outright assignment waivers (removing a player from the 40-man):

 

http://www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3530

 

A player who has a "no trade" right (full or partial) must waive his "no trade" right before he can be placed on Outright Assignment Waivers.

 

Same with August trade waivers:

 

http://www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3528

 

A player with a "no trade" right can refuse both a waiver claim and a trade assignment

 

Pretty much the only way to get Mauer off the roster would be releasing him, but we'd still owe him his full salary.

I knew someone around here would have the answers. 

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to move Sano across the diamond and shift Polanco to 3rd, then slot in your shiny new SS? That improves the defense at both positions on the left side while massively improving the 1B production. The only tradeoff is a hit to SS offense, which few teams are great at anyways.

 

If you think Polanco can play 3B, sure, also assuming you think Sano can play 1B......but ya, I'd certainly consider this also. That said, Polanco hits like Mauer, but that's valuable at 2B. Not so much at 1B, and not as much at 3B. But ya, more new ideas would be great.

[Taildragger8791]

 

Wasn't first where they initially slotted him, then moved him to outfield? Or was he always outfield, but given reps at first? I read so many different things I am easily confused.

 

I think he started all around the outfield and as time went on he split time between both corner OF and 1B to develop positional flexibility. They knew he was at least athletic enough for corner outfield, but I think I read somewhere that's a common development strategy for guys like that who can handle it.

[ashbury]

 I think Brock pretty much nailed that point, and succinctly so, with this post.

 

No one will claim Joe Mauer.

My point was that it's not a question of "will", but of "can". He simply can not be claimed. The CBA doesn't allow it.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I'm just curious, does the no-trade clause affect waivers? If someone claims him, does he have to either go or retire?

There was an interesting article on a blue jays fan site about such things. As I read it, 5/10 rights are particularly iron clad as compared to other contractual no-trade clauses.

 

http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2015/12/31/10697448/a-primer-on-10-5-rights-or-why-bautista-and-encarnacion-cant-just-be

[Taildragger8791]

 

If you think Polanco can play 3B, sure, also assuming you think Sano can play 1B......but ya, I'd certainly consider this also. That said, Polanco hits like Mauer, but that's valuable at 2B. Not so much at 1B, and not as much at 3B. But ya, more new ideas would be great.

 

It's the same compilation of guys either way so I don't think it matters in this case who's bat plays better where. Just find the best defensive combination and go from there.

 

I'm not sure if Polanco can man 3rd with his arm but I see it brought up a lot and he did start there a handful of times last year. He has the range and the arm is less of an issue when charging in on the ball. You'd probably get more no-throws or late throws, but that might be countered by getting to more balls consistently.

 

I see no reason Sano couldn't learn to play 1B adequately if he's athletic enough for 3B.

 

If Mauer went down for the year I could see this being a pretty efficient way to fill the lineup. If we could get the 2014/2015 version of Escobar he'd slot in great at SS too.

 

Of course I hope Mauer can be more effective with a reduced role, but it is interesting to see the creative combinations that open up when you remove his name from the equation.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

There was an interesting article on a blue jays fan site about such things. As I read it, 5/10 rights are particularly iron clad as compared to other contractual no-trade clauses.

http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2015/12/31/10697448/a-primer-on-10-5-rights-or-why-bautista-and-encarnacion-cant-just-be

10-and-5 no trade protection is the exact same as a contractual full no trade protection.

 

Sometimes though, contractual no trade clauses are only "partial" -- that is, a list of teams a player can't be traded to without his consent.

 

Still, either full or partial no-trade protection must be waived by the player before a team could put the player on waivers, according to the Cub Reporter link I posted earlier.

[GP830]

I saw that this thread had gotten to 3 pages, and my initial thought was "how can they still be talking about this." But my second thought was "omg they found a loophole..."

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I saw that this thread had gotten to 3 pages, and my initial thought was "how can they still be talking about this." But my second thought was "omg they found a loophole..."

Where do you think you are?

 

Last month, we literally had a 50 page argument over the definition of "junk".

[laloesch]

 

Where do you think you are?

 

Last month, we literally had a 50 page argument over the definition of "junk".

lol i missed that one.  Was that part of the DOzier trade threads?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

lol i missed that one.  Was that part of the DOzier trade threads?

[GP830]

 

Where do you think you are?

 

Last month, we literally had a 50 page argument over the definition of "junk".

For better for worse, I'm the type of who will look at the same set of facts over and over as if I expect some new unexplored solution will pop out at me. 

Like for instance: maybe, just maybe there was a previously unknown clause in Mauer's contract that stipulated: 

 

"Joe Mauer, herein known solely as 'Employee':

-Employee foregoes all agreed upon compensation should he fail to win three (3) or more batting titles within the first six (6) years of contract.

-Employee forgoes his position on the roster should the Twins establish a new "Face Of The Franchise."

-Employee will only retain all agreed upon positional fortitude and compensation if and only if Bert Blyleven can pronounce each and every foreign-born player's name correctly on his first try.

-Should Employee abandon his iconic "Sideburns-for-days" look, contract becomes null-and-void."

 

I dunno-- it could happen.

[Tom Froemming]

Among the 146 qualified hitters in 2016

BB%: Mauer in top 8.2%

OBP: in top 21.2%

BB/K and Swinging Strike%: in top 6.9% (inside the top 10)

Contact%: in top 11.7%

 

I understand people want sexier things like homers or at least slugging, but Mauer is still elite at the things he does best. This combination of skills means his floor is extremely high, I would argue among the highest in baseball, for whatever that's worth.

 

The Twins won't be DFAing Mauer, not because of his contract or his status with the franchise, but because he's still good at baseball.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Among the 146 qualified hitters in 2016

BB%: Mauer in top 8.2%

OBP: in top 21.2%

BB/K and Swinging Strike%: in top 6.9% (inside the top 10)

Contact%: in top 11.7%

 

I understand people want sexier things like homers or at least slugging, but Mauer is still elite at the things he does best. This combination of skills means his floor is extremely high, I would argue among the highest in baseball, for whatever that's worth.

 

The Twins won't be DFAing Mauer, not because of his contract or his status with the franchise, but because he's still good at baseball.

 

so, ignore slugging? Can I ignore strikeouts for Buxton to assess his hitting?

 

just look at wRC+ or some other offensive stat that takes into account all aspect of hitting, and compare him to other 1B. That's how you decide if he's good enough at his job to help the Twins be competitive. 

[Willihammer]

You have to think if MLB pushes through its strike zone change, Mauer would directly benefit from that more than most hitters.

[TheLeviathan]

 

You have to think if MLB pushes through its strike zone change, Mauer would directly benefit from that more than most hitters.

 

Would it though?  I can't look it up, but just from memory Mauer isn't particularly good at hitting the ball up.   If the new strike zone happens, that's where he'll see more pitches.  I'm not sure this is correct, but what is your reasoning?

[Tom Froemming]

 

so, ignore slugging? Can I ignore strikeouts for Buxton to assess his hitting?

 

just look at wRC+ or some other offensive stat that takes into account all aspect of hitting, and compare him to other 1B. That's how you decide if he's good enough at his job to help the Twins be competitive. 

His wRC+ is still better than Eric Hosmer's last year. Pretty sure Royals fans aren't clamoring for their front office to DFA him. Among Twins hitters, Mauer ranked 5th in wRC+, better than Max Kepler, should we DFA him too?

 

Mauer's wRC+ was 102, so slightly above average if I'm understanding correctly. I understand his profile doesn't fit in among the majority of other first basemen in the league, but he's still valuable. There's no reason to suggest he should be DFA'd.

[Willihammer]

 

Would it though?  I can't look it up, but just from memory Mauer isn't particularly good at hitting the ball up.   If the new strike zone happens, that's where he'll see more pitches.  I'm not sure this is correct, but what is your reasoning?

Someone can look it up, but my memory is the opposite. He punches the high fastball into center-left his whole career. Whereas he's grounded to second on the low fastball, if he swings at all. Lately he has been looking befuddled when those low ball/calls don't go his way.

[Mike Sixel]

 

His wRC+ is still better than Eric Hosmer's last year. Pretty sure Royals fans aren't clamoring for their front office to DFA him. Among Twins hitters, Mauer ranked 5th in wRC+, better than Max Kepler, should we DFA him too?

 

Mauer's wRC+ was 102, so slightly above average if I'm understanding correctly. I understand his profile doesn't fit in among the majority of other first basemen in the league, but he's still valuable. There's no reason to suggest he should be DFA'd.

 

I never stated he should be DFAd.....I replied to your comment that he was valuable and that we should judge him by only looking at his strengths. And not compare him to 1B taking into account all aspects of hitting.

 

edit: that 102 is compared to all hitters, including pitchers.....102 isn't all that good, especially for a 1B. It's the same as Polanco, who can play 2B or SS or 3B maybe.

[spinowner]

 

Ah, the gulf between romantic theory and pragmatic reality.

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, theory and reality are not the same.

[jud6312]

Why do I feel like defending Mauer as an OBP machine/defensive stalwart/side-burned Messiah is the baseball version of "her emails tho?"

[jud6312]

 

so, ignore slugging? Can I ignore strikeouts for Buxton to assess his hitting?

 

just look at wRC+ or some other offensive stat that takes into account all aspect of hitting, and compare him to other 1B. That's how you decide if he's good enough at his job to help the Twins be competitive. 

But, don't you member '09?

 

 

 

[jud6312]

 

so, ignore slugging? Can I ignore strikeouts for Buxton to assess his hitting?

 

just look at wRC+ or some other offensive stat that takes into account all aspect of hitting, and compare him to other 1B. That's how you decide if he's good enough at his job to help the Twins be competitive. 

But seriously, that's the great thing about having all of these advanced metrics to judge performance on.

 

It used to be someone - and to a lesser degree their "classic" stats - either passed the eye test or they didn't.

 

Now, anyone with an internet connection can throw out a number that supports their admiration for whichever player they choose, while totally ignoring the ones that cast said player in a negative light and whether or not they still appear to be a productive player to the naked eye.

 

So, I'm with you ... not all Ks can count against Buxton until further notice. Only those against lefties in the 6th inning or later of road games held on a Tuesday shall count.

[jharaldson]

 

I never stated he should be DFAd.....I replied to your comment that he was valuable and that we should judge him by only looking at his strengths. And not compare him to 1B taking into account all aspects of hitting.

 

edit: that 102 is compared to all hitters, including pitchers.....102 isn't all that good, especially for a 1B. It's the same as Polanco, who can play 2B or SS or 3B maybe.

 

To further emphasize this the league average for all 1B in 2016 was 108 wRC+ which makes Joe below average:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=1b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2016&month=0&season1=2016&ind=0&team=0,ss&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

 

If you only compare him to 1B with enough qualifying PA in 2016 he is ranked 18 out of 23, well below average.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=1b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2016&month=0&season1=2016&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=17,d

 

I don't think there is a valid reason to DFA him today but that decision needs to be made by comparing him to 1B candidates on the Twins and in the league in general.  Not by evaluating him against the 9 best hitters on the Twins or against all hitters in the MLB.

[HitInAPinch]

 

Until they have a better option, I keep him around. But comparing him to other 1B isn't exactly great news for their competitiveness. He's just pretty meh. It's not just that he's 18th among qualified 1B in wRC+....it's how far he is from the top 10.

Question:  Who would be the MiLB 1st baseman on deck?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Question:  Who would be the MiLB 1st baseman on deck?

 

No idea .... Palka? Kepler (not in the minors)? No one in AA or AAA, I don't think.

 

Hence their interest in Bellinger, imo.