Reusse: Fire Molitor

[old nurse]

 

Sorry. I wasn't aware that a top tier manager has a contract expiring.

Every AAA or AA manager is usually free to seek a big league job, hence a contract that is expiring.

[David HK]

I have beaten this drum (or dead horse) since last year.  While Molly was one of my favorite all time players, he's not been a good manager, in any sense, and most egregiously in his handling of the youngsters, which is what this woeful season should have been all about since that first early slide.  

 

The lineups pulled out of a hat, players making bone-headed decisions "on their own," playing guys in crucial positions or batting order based on reputation rather than performance, it's just been a nightmare of a season, but the same signs and behaviors were there last year as well.  

 

Hm.  The one Twinks game I actually watched recently included Dougie M in the dugout as a "September call-up." Hm, again.

 

As others have posted, I hate seeing someone lose their job, but at least in this case, it's kind of cushioned by having made millions as a player, and a comfy retirement ahead.  

[beckmt]

 

I'm not sure how any of these are Molitor's fault. He doesn't sign players.

The only questionable thing on te list, that he may have had a hand in, was Sano to right. But, let's be honest, that was like Ryan's decision after accidentally winning the bid on Park.

I'll say again, and I'll continue to hold this belief for at least one more year, Molitor has very little to do with the team's poor performance. Managers in general have almost no real effect on a team's performance. They maybe swing a few game +\- over the course of a whole year. Joe Maddon, the consensus best manager on earth right now, would also lose 90+ with this group.

Also, Molitor nearly brought the club to the playoffs last year when the pitching wasn't a train-wreck, and after some guys broke out of slumps sometime around June they have been one of the best offense clubs in baseball.

Not sure how firing Molitor helps/changes anything. We don't really know what we have in Molitor until he's given a roster that's not a complete disgrace in terms of a rotation/bullpen.

All of you calling for his head....who do you propose they bring in that would win with the club? What do those managers do differently that will turn this roster into a winner? I won't hold my breath for answers.

Mismanaging the pitching staff.  Overusing relievers, getting relievers up multiple times without using them.  Using relievers 3 - 4 days in a row.  Having  relievers get up even if he does not bring them in.  This is on Molitor. 

[beckmt]

I also feel you need a younger manager(late 30's early 40's) to relate to the younger players.  Using fifty somethings is not working.

Molitor is also going back to the Gardy thing of throwing younger players under the bus.  How are you going to want them to play here if that is the reaction.

[Platoon]

I'm not sure how any of these are Molitor's fault. He doesn't sign players.

The only questionable thing on te list, that he may have had a hand in, was Sano to right. But, let's be honest, that was like Ryan's decision after accidentally winning the bid on Park.

I'll say again, and I'll continue to hold this belief for at least one more year, Molitor has very little to do with the team's poor performance. Managers in general have almost no real effect on a team's performance. They maybe swing a few game +\- over the course of a whole year. Joe Maddon, the consensus best manager on earth right now, would also lose 90+ with this group.

Also, Molitor nearly brought the club to the playoffs last year when the pitching wasn't a train-wreck, and after some guys broke out of slumps sometime around June they have been one of the best offense clubs in baseball.

Not sure how firing Molitor helps/changes anything. We don't really know what we have in Molitor until he's given a roster that's not a complete disgrace in terms of a rotation/bullpen.

All of you calling for his head....who do you propose they bring in that would win with the club? What do those managers do differently that will turn this roster into a winner? I won't hold my breath for answers.

In one paragraph you note that managers in general have no real effect on a teams performance, and in another you say Molitor nearly brought the club to the playoffs last year........ I say the following without being critical. I don't think either statement is true. His odd lineups and decision making last year were covered by lots of luck, I think we now call it sequencing. This year, while the truth is no one would have had a winning record, his handling of players in general was questionable, and the release of his lineups everyday has become almost the only reason to tune in. But the bottom line is lack of fundamentals. Despite the Twins PR machine at the mikes, being a young player does not excuse that. Every player in baseball history knows to hit a cutoff man, knows to anticipate where he will throw the ball when he gets it, knows not to make the third out at third base, etc. It's not because they weren't told about these parts of the game, it's because they chose to ignore it. The managers job is to see that they don't ignore it. And that means all of them, not just a select few. I think that's his biggest failing. Thats a quality that all good managers either have, and it's the first one the players notice if you don't!

[gil4]

 

Hm.  The one Twinks game I actually watched recently included Dougie M in the dugout as a "September call-up." Hm, again.

 

Apparently the practice is pretty common, although I had never heard of it until I read this article about Wally Backman quitting because he felt disrespected, in part because he didn't get the customary call-up.  (When Backman was with the Twins I got the impression he was a jerk, and from reading this article I got the impression he hasn't changed.) (I know, impressions formed on the basis of snippets in the media aren't always fair.) 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/17538715/wally-backman-says-quit-new-york-mets-job-disrespect

[HitInAPinch]

 

If Molitor helped captain a team that overachieved in wins and losses last year, is that not a factor in dismissing him?

 

I feel like a Molitor apologist with how many of you want an effigy burned every other day, but this is the same coach that helped us out-win our performance by a decent margin last year.  For many of you, the wins and losses are a bottom line, so why is that so quickly dismissed?

 

The organization's fundamentals have been on the downhill for a long time now.  It was a criticism of Gardy the last year he was here too.  Perhaps Molitor is being swallowed by the much larger issues he has no control over.

 

Just a thought.  If he's retained I find it defensible.  If he's fired i find that defensible as well.

 

I agree.  I can't blame the lack of fundamentals on Molitor.  I can also say last season had a good bit of dumb luck involve due to a recovery period from the last 4 Gardy years. 

 

From what I was able to watch, this past season's Spring Training was horrible.  I don't pretend to know what happened there, but it definitely carried into the season.  From that point on, Molitor was searching for something that worked.  Strange lineups / weird strategies are the things you do when you don't have a quality team.  It's also the anti-Gardenhire, i.e.  play only veterans. 

 

Moving forward, I see a better future next year amoungst the MiLB player brought up this season.  There's been some in-season instruction going on and I'd have to say it's been fairly successful.  Now, will it translate to next year?  

 

Step one:  TELL Buxton to go play Winter Ball.  What has happened recently with his hitting MUST be re-enforced.  Same goes for Sano, Kepler, Rosario, etc. 

Step Two:  Send several scouts / coaches to those games and check / stress defensive skills.

Step Three:  Advise Dozier that there are 2 halves to a season   

 

The in-season adjustments for Duffey and Berrios leads me to this question:

Are the MiLB managers and pitching coaches only looking at wins or are they also looking towards the MLB future for these pitchers? 

 

Keep / Fire Molitor?  I personally viewed Molitor as a short timer.  A veteran-fundamentals guy that works on getting the team going in the right direction. 

 

[Vanimal46]

 

I also feel you need a younger manager(late 30's early 40's) to relate to the younger players.  Using fifty somethings is not working.

Molitor is also going back to the Gardy thing of throwing younger players under the bus.  How are you going to want them to play here if that is the reaction.

62 year old Joe Maddon, 67 year old Dusty Baker, 67 year old Terry Collins, and 52 year old Jeff Banister all say hello! 

[wsnydes]

 

62 year old Joe Maddon, 67 year old Dusty Baker, 67 year old Terry Collins, and 52 year old Jeff Banister all say hello! 

61 year old Bruce Bochy would like a moment of your time...

[ashbury]

62 year old Joe Maddon, 67 year old Dusty Baker, 67 year old Terry Collins, and 52 year old Jeff Banister all say hello! 

None of these guys got their first managing job of any kind at age fifty eight.

[Vanimal46]

 

None of these guys got their first managing job of any kind at age fifty eight.

Yeah that's true. There's a significant difference between a Terry Collins/Joe Maddon who's been doing this for 12-13 years, and Molitor who's just learning on the fly. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

 It's not because they weren't told about these parts of the game, it's because they chose to ignore it. The managers job is to see that they don't ignore it. And that means all of them, not just a select few. I think that's his biggest failing. Thats a quality that all good managers either have, and it's the first one the players notice if you don't!

 

So what should he do to "make sure they don't ignore it"?  Bench them?  Chew them out?

 

if they answer is "bench them", I'm pretty sure it's against baseball rules to play zero guys in the lineup.

 

At some point the rubber meets the road on some of these criticisms.  What exactly is he supposed to do about the fact that no one we call up seems to have basic fundamentals engrained in them?

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'm not sure how any of these are Molitor's fault. He doesn't sign players.

The only questionable thing on te list, that he may have had a hand in, was Sano to right. But, let's be honest, that was like Ryan's decision after accidentally winning the bid on Park.

I'll say again, and I'll continue to hold this belief for at least one more year, Molitor has very little to do with the team's poor performance. Managers in general have almost no real effect on a team's performance. They maybe swing a few game +\- over the course of a whole year. Joe Maddon, the consensus best manager on earth right now, would also lose 90+ with this group.

Also, Molitor nearly brought the club to the playoffs last year when the pitching wasn't a train-wreck, and after some guys broke out of slumps sometime around June they have been one of the best offense clubs in baseball.

Not sure how firing Molitor helps/changes anything. We don't really know what we have in Molitor until he's given a roster that's not a complete disgrace in terms of a rotation/bullpen.

All of you calling for his head....who do you propose they bring in that would win with the club? What do those managers do differently that will turn this roster into a winner? I won't hold my breath for answers.

 

Then why are they paid millions of dollars a year, if they have no effect?

 

We can't know anything about Molitor's ability to set lineups, decide to sacrifice bunt or not, improve fundamentals, or anything, until he has good / great players around? Why, if he has no effect, would we know anything then?

 

And, why would we have to know all the possible replacement names to have an opinion that he's not good at his job?

[beckmt]

 

62 year old Joe Maddon, 67 year old Dusty Baker, 67 year old Terry Collins, and 52 year old Jeff Banister all say hello! 

What do all of these managers have in common.  They have a core of veteran 30+ year old players.  The Twins do not have that.  That is why I feel they need a younger manager who can relate better to them.

[magiklair]

If the Twins finish with the worst record in team history. It's a no-brainer to fire Molitor.. You can't say the talent we have is the worst in the history of the Twins.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Then why are they paid millions of dollars a year, if they have no effect?

 

We can't know anything about Molitor's ability to set lineups, decide to sacrifice bunt or not, improve fundamentals, or anything, until he has good / great players around? Why, if he has no effect, would we know anything then?

 

And, why would we have to know all the possible replacement names to have an opinion that he's not good at his job?

 

Lots of people get paid millions to have no meaningful impact.  Or because they possess any meaningful skills.  There is an entire family of them named Kardashian.  I don't think judging them by their pay check is all that useful.  This isn't the NBA or the NFL.  Baseball is much more between the lines and player driven than coach driven.

 

Personally, I think an MLB manager as a tiny, tiny effect on the team.  Only a precious few are guys I'd consider meaningful or difference makers.  I'd be on board for firing Molitor if such a guy was presented, but they don't exactly grow on trees.  I'd rather hire a manager for minimum wage and spend every last red cent on development and organizational frameworks.

[wsnydes]

 

 

Personally, I think an MLB manager as a tiny, tiny effect on the team.  Only a precious few are guys I'd consider meaningful or difference makers.  I'd be on board for firing Molitor if such a guy was presented, but they don't exactly grow on trees.  

I agree with that in-game, but I cannot outside of it.  A good teacher will go a long ways, especially on a team as young as this one is getting.

[Platoon]

So what should he do to "make sure they don't ignore it"?  Bench them?  Chew them out?

 

if they answer is "bench them", I'm pretty sure it's against baseball rules to play zero guys in the lineup.

 

At some point the rubber meets the road on some of these criticisms.  What exactly is he supposed to do about the fact that no one we call up seems to have basic fundamentals engrained in them?

And the rubber needs to meet the road on extreme examples. NO, you can't bench them all at once. But in a 100+ loss season you can sit someone until you get his attention. And you can sit them equitably. Remember the kerfuffle over Rosario virtually walking into 3rd with two outs? And off to to an immediate benching and Rochester he goes! And no public comment about Plouffe doing something similar the day or two before. When you bench a player with Plouffes status on the team for doing something like that, people listen. When you don't, people ignore. Yesterday Robbe tags on a one out FB, and according to the radio guys just made it, down one at the time. AND was lauded for setting himself up for the inevitable wild pitch to tie the game. The players see treatment like this, at the best sporadic, at the worst preferential. It makes whatever else comes out of your mouth just warm air. I hate to use this comparison, because I got hammered last time. But I doubt the players Mike Zimmer and Bud Grant coach(ed) have any misconceptions over what Grant and Zimmer want, nor whether it applied to the entire roster, or just a certain few.

[TheLeviathan]

 

And the rubber needs to meet the road on extreme examples. NO, you can't bench them all at once. But in a 100+ loss season you can sit someone until you get his attention. And you can sit them equitably.

 

If you remember, opinions here on Rosario's play were not so cut and dry.  And virtually every time some young player who is part of our core sits, we roast Molitor for not playing the guys he should be playing.  

 

I can't say I recall you or any other posting standing up and declaring Kepler should sit for a few games after that comically ill-conceived dive attempt of his a few months ago.  I remember this board lighting up that Sano was getting demoted down the lineup and sitting, with no thought at all as to whether that could be the manager doing exactly what you want him to do.

 

The truth is that we don't know what happens behind closed doors.  We don't know how many conversations, tongue lashings, or ultimatums are happening privately.  And that's a good thing.  The previous manager made no such attempt to keep things professional.

 

 Do I still think there is more veteran deference going on?  Yes.  But that's common among pretty much any work force you're a part of.  The second you start pushing back on the veteran staff is the moment you start risking an insurrection.  

 

I don't know what the exact answer is, but i know it's far less black and white as you're portraying it.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I agree with that in-game, but I cannot outside of it.  A good teacher will go a long ways, especially on a team as young as this one is getting.

 

We have no way of measuring this.  And yet people are trying to believe they do.  Hell, has there been anyone associated with this franchise that has gotten more praise, even before he was named manager, as being a "great teacher" than Molitor?  The young guys rave about him and his guidance.

 

The problem is organizational.  I understand Molitor may need to sink with the ship, that's hsi fault for signing on to the sinking ship, but your first mate isn't the one who built the terrible ship.  You just asked him to sail something with a hole in it and he managed the inevitable - to be there when it sunk.

[Mike Sixel]

 

We have no way of measuring this.  And yet people are trying to believe they do.  Hell, has there been anyone associated with this franchise that has gotten more praise, even before he was named manager, as being a "great teacher" than Molitor?  The young guys rave about him and his guidance.

 

The problem is organizational.  I understand Molitor may need to sink with the ship, that's hsi fault for signing on to the sinking ship, but your first mate isn't the one who built the terrible ship.  You just asked him to sail something with a hole in it and he managed the inevitable - to be there when it sunk.

 

What evidence have you seen that he does anything well? There are plenty of outcomes implying he does some things poorly....

 

Again, just because the outcomes were bad, and for some predictably so, does not mean we cannot observe the process, and question how well he does the process of managing.

 

now, maybe it doesn't matter, and you could be the manager.....but I just don't think that's true at all.

[wsnydes]

 

We have no way of measuring this.  And yet people are trying to believe they do.  Hell, has there been anyone associated with this franchise that has gotten more praise, even before he was named manager, as being a "great teacher" than Molitor?  The young guys rave about him and his guidance.

 

The problem is organizational.  I understand Molitor may need to sink with the ship, that's hsi fault for signing on to the sinking ship, but your first mate isn't the one who built the terrible ship.  You just asked him to sail something with a hole in it and he managed the inevitable - to be there when it sunk.

1) My comment was a general comment in response to your general comment.

2) I said nothing about Molitor, nor was I trying to imply anything regarding Molitor.  Though really, what are the young guys going to say about his guidance?  Ripping their manager before their career even starts doesn't seem like a wise decision.

3) If the problem here is organizational, which it is - including the big league staff, your comment about a manager not meaning much if any flies in the face of that.  If these kids are coming up raw, how is it that you expect them to get better if the big league staff isn't there to teach them anything?  And how is their improvement, or lack thereof, not a major impact on how the team performs?  I agree completely that the players are the largely the ones that decide games.  They have to execute regardless of the position a manager puts them in.  I believe it was Jim Leyland who once said that as a manager, you give your players all of the answers to the exam, but they still have to go and take that exam.  I find that extremely astute.  This applies to every organization, not just this one.  The players have to put the work in, but they have to be putting in the right kind of work. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

What evidence have you seen that he does anything well? 

 

Well, last year we outperformed the talent and performance of our time by a decent margin.  I largely consider that luck, but I largely consider most things people chalk up as the manager's responsibility as luck.  

[Mike Sixel]

 

Well, last year we outperformed the talent and performance of our time by a decent margin.  I largely consider that luck, but I largely consider most things people chalk up as the manager's responsibility as luck.  

 

We agree on that for sure.

[TheLeviathan]

 

1)  If these kids are coming up raw, how is it that you expect them to get better if the big league staff isn't there to teach them anything?  

 

I would hope the purpose of the major league staff is to employ major league ready players in the most advantageous way and help keep them performing like major leaguers.

 

I tend to think expecting the major league staff to teach basics to ball players is a lot like expecting sixth grade teachers to teach basic addition.  Some of you seem to be wondering why the sixth graders can't do alegebra, while simultaneously wanting them to work on 1 + 1.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I would hope the purpose of the major league staff is to employ major league ready players in the most advantageous way and help keep them performing like major leaguers.

 

I tend to think expecting the major league staff to teach basics to ball players is a lot like expecting sixth grade teachers to teach basic addition.  Some of you seem to be wondering why the sixth graders can't do alegebra, while simultaneously wanting them to work on 1 + 1.

 

Joe Madden disagrees with you....he has recently said as much. Development continues in the majors. These guys are NOT finished products.

[TheLeviathan]

 

We agree on that for sure.

 

And I get what you're saying.  We haven't seen anything from Molitor to make us think he's one of those special few managers who means something.  It goes back to ashbury's post earlier, which I think pretty much nailed this issue.

 

I'm fine with firing him because he's probably not one of the special few who makes a difference.  I'm also fine with keeping him because the odds of finding one of those special few is basically zero so some stability may not be the worst thing.  But i'm not going to get bent out of shape either way.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Joe Madden disagrees with you....he has recently said as much. Development continues in the majors. These guys are NOT finished products.

 

And I disagree with Maddon if he means basic fundamentals.  I understand some help is needed in terms of things like "now you have to face sliders, here's what you do", but hitting cut off men?

 

Sorry, that's not what their job is or should be.  That's something you do as a drill or a routine to reinforce an already learned skill.  Not something that should have to be taught.

[wsnydes]

 

I would hope the purpose of the major league staff is to employ major league ready players in the most advantageous way and help keep them performing like major leaguers.

 

I tend to think expecting the major league staff to teach basics to ball players is a lot like expecting sixth grade teachers to teach basic addition.  Some of you seem to be wondering why the sixth graders can't do alegebra, while simultaneously wanting them to work on 1 + 1.

I agree with all of that completely.  I've been saying that since well before the Gardy years ended.  Unfortunately, that isn't the case here.  Somebody at the major league level needs to teach these guys in the meantime though, while the minor league staffs are improved.  It's definitely not ideal.  

 

A major league staff should be able to focus on fine tuning rather than basic building blocks.

[wsnydes]

 

Joe Madden disagrees with you....he has recently said as much. Development continues in the majors. These guys are NOT finished products.

I always interpreted that as meaning developing further past the basics though.  While some minor improvement can probably be made in a few basic areas, I've always taken him to mean about growing as a more consistent and overall better major league level player.  Basic fundamentals should just be the first building blocks in which Maddon can build upon.  Perhaps that's just how I interpreted him though.