Trading Dozier Redux

[Brandon Warne]

 

"No way" a 10-31 team could justify giving a rookie who had dominated AAA in ~20 starts another start in the Majors? LOL.  

 

Michael Fulmer had a ~6.5 ERA through 4 starts for a team with real playoff hopes, they were able to justify him getting more starts, I'd say it worked out ok for them

 

I guess I don't know why that matters? No two players are the same. 

[alarp33]

 

I guess I don't know why that matters? No two players are the same. 

 

It matters because sometimes rookies struggle in a tiny sample size and figure it out. I never said they were the same. 

 

Maybe 30% of flyballs hit off Berrios would've continued to leave the ballpark (but probably not), maybe his BB/9 would've stayed over 7 (but probably not), maybe his BABIP against would've remained over .400 (but probably not)... And guess what, whether those numbers remained the same or not, the Twins would not be playing any form of meaningful baseball from June through September

 

[Winston Smith]

I don't understand what most of these comments have to do with trading Dozier.

[kab21]

I am not upset that a very young rookie got sent down (for a couple of months) after 4 starts that overall went very poorly. I don't like that he wasn't called up as a bullpen arm last Aug/Sept but that is almost entirely due to service time. I think 10-15 MLB innings late in the year would have helped him a lot for this year.

 

Meyer has been handled very frustratingly. Yet he continues to get hurt or implode (like in 2015) at all the wrong times.

 

I don't really understand being upset about Chargois at all. He is the type of guy that should be getting looks this season but he had 48 A/AA/AAA innings before this season. And the bullpen has started pitching really well lately (now that Jepsen and Fien have been kicked to the curb). Hopefully May comes back as the pitcher he was last year.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

He had an OPS against of over 1100 and an ERA of over 10.00. I think it was pretty clear another start would not have gone well. 

And Trevor May had a 8.79 ERA and OPS against of .945 after his first four starts.

 

You also continue to isolate the Berrios part of the conversation when I've said "If this only happened to Berrios, I'd probably get over it... But it's happened to half a dozen guys this season alone."

[kab21]

 

And Trevor May had a 8.79 ERA and OPS against of .945 after his first four starts.

 

You also continue to isolate the Berrios part of the conversation when I've said "If this only happened to Berrios, I'd probably get over it... But it's happened to half a dozen guys this season alone."

This isn't an argument for keeping a pitcher up or sending him down. All it means is that Berrios first 4 starts aren't indicative of what he will be doing next time he is up.

[ashbury]

I don't understand what most of these comments have to do with trading Dozier.

Because reasons.

[Lee-The-Twins-Fan]

I believe Terry Ryan will keep Brian Dozier.  And he should. Yes, the streakiness is maddening, but Dozier is one of the few veteran leaders left on this team, among the position players, at least. Mauer, Dozier, Plouffe and youngsters. 

 

The Twins need Dozier's leadership. 

[Vanimal46]

 

I believe Terry Ryan will keep Brian Dozier.  And he should. Yes, the streakiness is maddening, but Dozier is one of the few veteran leaders left on this team, among the position players, at least. Mauer, Dozier, Plouffe and youngsters. 

 

The Twins need Dozier's leadership. 

I would argue that Dozier provides little to no visible leadership that we as fans can see. I could be very wrong about this, and perhaps he's working with the younger players in the cage or in the field more than we're led on. During games I don't see any young player approaching Dozier to ask for his guidance like they did with Hunter last year. 

[gocgo]

<heavy sigh>  If I had any faith, ANY faith, ANY, one speck (even the size of a pimple on a gnats ass) of faith that the FO could deal Dozier for something of at least equal value, I'd be in favor of it.  I don't have  any faith in the FO and the reason is simply that the track record hasn't been good.  I think the rest of the league knows that they can get the best of Terry Ryan and Company in the trade game.  Therefore, I am not in favor of trading Dozier.

[Dantes929]

If we didn't have Polanco I would not trade Dozier for Polanco.   I like him but he is the 97th rated prospect and doesn't really tear it up in the minors.  Conclusion it that I would maybe trade Dozier for a top 50 guy rather than top 100.  All star second baseman hitting well right now with a pretty solid career, under control for a couple years and only 28.     Do not sell low. 

 

As far as the Twins go you can make all sorts of assumptions based on their performance so far but it would shock me if at least 15 guys don't have better 2nd halves than first halves.     Whether they lose 95 or 110 I still feel way better about this team than I did about 2012-2014.     Its easy for me to imagine a Santana, Duffey, Gibson, Berrios rotation pitching way better than what we saw in the 1st half along with better offense from 7 guys.    I would really like to see May in there as well.    Of course there are lots of organizations that have had many seasons in a row of suckiness and maybe the Twins will be one of them.     There have also been many teams that have gone from worst to first and the Twins could be one of them.,   Guys playing poorly is not proof that they will continue to play poorly, especially young ones.     We are 7-7 in our last 14 and the losses have been close because the guys are playing like they were supposed to all along.    Nnolasco our best pitcher and Nunez our best hitter is not what this team is.

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

<heavy sigh>  If I had any faith, ANY faith, ANY, one speck (even the size of a pimple on a gnats ass) of faith that the FO could deal Dozier for something of at least equal value, I'd be in favor of it.  I don't have  any faith in the FO and the reason is simply that the track record hasn't been good.  I think the rest of the league knows that they can get the best of Terry Ryan and Company in the trade game.  Therefore, I am not in favor of trading Dozier.

 

I don't think the problem with the front office is finding talent... developing it on the other hand seems to be an org issue.  TR is the guy that asks the world for everyone, which is why we don't see a whole lot of trades out of him.  Fortunately, for a guy like Dozier, someone might pay.  Now what we do with the talent received is a bigger issue. 

[Mr. Brooks]

I believe Terry Ryan will keep Brian Dozier. And he should. Yes, the streakiness is maddening, but Dozier is one of the few veteran leaders left on this team, among the position players, at least. Mauer, Dozier, Plouffe and youngsters.

 

The Twins need Dozier's leadership.

Dozier's leadership has guided them to the worst record in the league.

Why exactly do we need his leadership?

[drivlikejehu]

Veterans are hailed as "leaders" when the team is winning and blamed for the absence of leadership when it's losing. There's nothing Dozier can do about the Twins being poorly run. To the extent his intangibles are a factor, its a small factor that shouldn't play into what the front office does. 

 

There are some significant reasons to trade Dozier, but I wonder if there's a good match out there . . . a lot of teams have excellent 2B right now, and giving him away for a weak return doesn't make sense to me. 

[Thrylos]

 

I believe Terry Ryan will keep Brian Dozier.  And he should. Yes, the streakiness is maddening, but Dozier is one of the few veteran leaders left on this team, among the position players, at least. Mauer, Dozier, Plouffe and youngsters. 

 

The Twins need Dozier's leadership. 

 

I believe that Terry Ryan should not be making any more decisions regarding who should stay and who should go

 

Dozier's "leadership" is a lot like Tommy Herr's and Garry Gaetti's (after Tommy Herr) "leadership".  And that's another good reason for him to go.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

I believe that Terry Ryan should not be making any more decisions regarding who should stay and who should go

 

Dozier's "leadership" is a lot like Tommy Herr's and Garry Gaetti's (after Tommy Herr) "leadership".  And that's another good reason for him to go.

 

Dozier and Tommy Herr couldn't possibly be any further apart in personality. Completely different people. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

A case can be made to trade Dozier, and that the Twins won't compete in 2017, but it seems pretty unsustainable to trade every player of value at every trade deadline. 

[Mike Sixel]

Bah. He isn't even an all star......Which kind of surprises me

[h2oface]

Dozier has his hot streak for the year and the elite talk gets diarrhea. Don't look now, but he is 2 for his last 23 as I post this. So easily swayed. Dozier still hasn't learned to keep his glove on the runner when he tags them after all these years. Elite? Maybe in some fantasy.

 

Definitely trade Dozier, who's leadership reign sports one of the worst records in Twins' history.

[SwainZag]

 

Dozier has his hot streak for the year and the elite talk gets diarrhea. Don't look now, but he is 2 for his last 23 as I post this. So easily swayed. Dozier still hasn't learned to keep his glove on the runner when he tags them after all these years. Elite? Maybe in some fantasy.

Definitely trade Dozier, who's leadership reign sports one of the worst records in Twins' history.

 

Dozier has been a streaky hitter for YEARS.  His value is no different today than it was the last day of his extra base hit streak.  Also you forgot to mention in that same time span he is 2-23 that he has taken 6 walks.  6 game sample sizes are ridiculous

 

Since when did players who display leadership only play on great teams?  The Twins overall record is bad therefore Dozier must have terrible leadership qualities?

[Platoon]

Berrios' spot was filled by Pat Dean.

 

Pat Dean.

 

On the day Dean started, the Twins were 10-31 going into the game.

 

Again.

 

Pat Dean.

You should always use his middle name. "Freakin"

[Platoon]

Berrios' spot was filled by Pat Dean.

 

Pat Dean.

 

On the day Dean started, the Twins were 10-31 going into the game.

 

Again.

 

Pat Dean.

You should always use his middle name. "Freakin"

http://www.wolfgnards.com/media/blogs/photos/celebrities/gb-mood-slime.jpg

 

Hold on, let's rinse off the Pink Slime of Twins Negativity.  I'm not telling anyone how they should feel about the Twins' season or suggesting there's a right or wrong way to feel.

 

All I'm saying is that the most negative poster on TD and the most positive one are just differing shades of rose-colored Twins viewing goggles. All it takes to get on board with that is accepting the idea that ignoring a sports team is more negative than ripping it.

 

If you're down with that, the rest is easy, especially for us fans of baseball metrics. It's easy because we have a statistic, and here it goes: the ratings say that out of every 10 fans watching the Twins broadcasts 5 years ago, 6 have stopped watching.

 

So again, while I'm not telling people how to feel or judging, I'm entirely comfortable with my point of view that anyone still watching games or posting on the forum or listening in the car is less negative than the average fan, who has GIVEN UP on the Twins.

 

That minority includes me. My assessment of what the Twins did or didn't do to get into this mess or of their odds of climbing out of it may be more negative than the average TD poster, maybe even waaay more, but compared to the average Twins fan, I'm a raging font of pro-Twins passion, simply because I actually still give a crap about the Twins. And so is anyone else who even reads TD, let alone posts.

 

Those posts may be grumpier than usual, and so might some of us, but we're still here and getting along, (albeit sometimes with a bit of help - thanks, mods!) and giving a crap about the Twins. So enjoy TD, even the parts of it that call for Ryan's and/or Molitor's heads. At the rate things are going, by the time the season's over we might be the only people in MN still positive enough about the Twins to rip'em.

Well said. Both my son, and son-in-law, long time baseball fans, not just Twins fans, have quit following them. They check the scores, but don't TIVO or even listen on the radio. As for me, I still watch, unless something more interesting is on, like the weather. . I once sat on my bike in the Super 8 parking lot in Gillette WY at 10 30 pm finishing a game on the radio. I seriously doubt that would happen today. The real problem isn't the players. It's the nagging feelin lurking in the back of my brain that the FO won't manage the roster to get the most out of what they have. It's almost like the players have to win, despite the FO best efforts at incompetence.

[bird]

 

I don't complain about RPs spending too little time down.....they are inconsistent and prone to injury. I would move them faster (as a group) than any other group. As pitchers, they also have less to learn, since they are likely relying on the skills they already have.

 

It isn't that he wasn't brought up, it was how he was brought up and then cast aside right away. I can certainly understand the argument for giving him more time in AAA......and it's not like they haven't found ways to clear 40 man spots since his call up.....so their were options about how he was used.

 

 

 

Very good point.

 

[Willihammer]

I don't think dumping Dozier and rolling with Polanco would help the rebuild necessarily. Dozier was the better player in the minors, he's the better player today. Its possible, maybe likely, Dozier would remain an asset through the rest of his contract, and it also seems possible that if the Twins did roll with Polanco, that in 12 months they'd be faced with the familiar dilemma of- continue to play a below-average player, hoping he figures out MLB pitching, or, try to sneak that player through waivers at risk of losing him for little/no return?

 

If you look at the worst 2B in baseball by fWAR, they are almost all teams that are or should be rebuilding- 

 

Cesar Hernandez Phillies 0.9
Jed Lowrie Athletics 0.2
Johnny Giavotella Angels 0.4
Josh Harrison Pirates 0.5
Starlin Castro Yankees -0.4
Brandon Phillips Reds -0.2

 

whereas the "buyers" ie. contenders, are pretty well set at 2B.

 

So because of the roster dilemma Polanco could easily cause, and the 2B market looking like it skews towards the rebuilding side, Polanco would be the guy I'd shop, not Dozier.

[Platoon]

That's a lot of seances.

I once went to a medium seance. I didn't think I got my money's worth, it seemed so ............. Average!

[Craig Arko]

I once went to a medium seance. I didn't think I got my money's worth, it seemed so ............. Average!

You should have super-sized it.

[Platoon]

I would trade Dozier for a couple reasons. Because of the SP this team is still further from contention than we like to believe. And that is by far the toughest aspect to correct, and we seem to have some middle infielders coming up. Secondly, and I am allowing for the first point I made. He, Plouffe, the injured version of Mauer and Suzuki have been the core of this endless loss, low offensive, and mediocre defensive team for the last three years. There's not one of the four that couldnt be moved, but sadly only Plouffe will be. Frankly without the Sano problem, I would keep Plouffe and trade Dozier. I think his selfish attitude regarding his hitting is a detriment to the team. You cannot tell me the other players don't see him being treated differently.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I would trade Dozier for a couple reasons. Because of the SP this team is still further from contention than we like to believe. And that is by far the toughest aspect to correct, and we seem to have some middle infielders coming up. Secondly, and I am allowing for the first point I made. He, Plouffe, the injured version of Mauer and Suzuki have been the core of this endless loss, low offensive, and mediocre defensive team for the last three years. There's not one of the four that couldnt be moved, but sadly only Plouffe will be. Frankly without the Sano problem, I would keep Plouffe and trade Dozier. I think his selfish attitude regarding his hitting is a detriment to the team. You cannot tell me the other players don't see him being treated differently.

I do not, and never will, understand the strange narratives people build around players.

 

Now Dozier is a selfish player because he's a dead-pull hitter?

 

That makes Dozier a flawed player, not a selfish one.

 

Unless you believe David Ortiz has been one of the most selfish hitters of the past 15 years. I still wouldn't agree with that take but at least it'd be consistent.

[Platoon]

I do not, and never will, understand the strange narratives people build around players.

 

Now Dozier is a selfish player because he's a dead-pull hitter?

 

That makes Dozier a flawed player, not a selfish one.

 

Unless you believe David Ortiz has been one of the most selfish hitters of the past 15 years. I still wouldn't agree with that take but at least it'd be consistent.

Speaking of flaws, comparing Dozier and Ortiz might be another one. But if you want to make the case, or insinuation that Ortiz is selfish, go ahead. He actually became more successful by going the other way later in his career. Two completely different type of hitters and players. But only one is going to the HOF! But back to BD. Exactly when does a flawed player who refuses pretty much any attempt to fix that flaw, and makes public light of any suggestion there is a flaw, become selfish? Or does he never? Credit to Dozier, he realized he was a player with a short career path, who found a niche that kept him in MLB. Due to the lengthly streaks he runs, I never thought he did much for the team, but he is making a nice payday for himself. And if we don't agree on the definition of selfish, how about the definition of stubborn?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Berrios' spot was filled by Pat Dean.

 

Pat Dean.

 

On the day Dean started, the Twins were 10-31 going into the game.

 

Again.

 

Pat Dean.

and Pat Dean should have been the on the Rochester shuttle to be the stop gap. That's why you have guys like that on the 40. You don't jam a prospect in and out of the 25 man on a whim.