Article: Mauer Outage

[Monkeypaws]

Right on Doc - I would like to see what Vargas could do given the chance. He has great power, and while he has some of that K problem, it's nowhere near as bad as some of our other power prospects, and he has shown the ability to take a walk as well. He has a pretty good approach, and the switch hitting is a nice add.

[diehardtwinsfan]

well, he hit one out today, so perhaps we should bump this more.

[Minniman]

 

Why what?

 

...

 

Maybe he would agree to deferring that money over 15 years or something, or a partial ownership stake, but he's not just leaving it on the table.

 

And for the record, nor should he.

 

 

Why shouldn't he leave money on the table?

 

[wsnydes]

 

which is where he is being used more and more, like people have been wanting for years.

The part that sucks about that is that I don't view Mauer as a great baserunner.  I'd like my top of the order guys to be very good on the bases.  Mauer isn't speedy or particularly adept at baserunning.  He's not terrible, but just not what I like at the top of the order.

[Willihammer]

 

well, he hit one out today, so perhaps we should bump this more.

Would one of the mods please re-label this thread "Tracking Mauer?" K thx.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Why shouldn't he leave money on the table?

A better question is "why should he?"

 

Would you leave money on the table if you were guaranteed a contract to do the thing you love to do?

[ken]

A better question is "why should he?"

 

Would you leave money on the table if you were guaranteed a contract to do the thing you love to do?

It's okay for a player to grab every dollar,but if an owner maximize profit, he robbing us?

[Don Walcott]

In my opinion, Joe's earned his money.  He not only had some incredible underpaid seasons, he sold a lot of jerseys, and made a lot of Minnesotans proud.  I'd rather he have the money than the owners.  And I don't think he should be a scapegoat for why we can't spend money on other players.  We have plenty of money to spend if we want to do so.  Our FO has just chosen not to spend money on free agents.

[Jham]

 

It's okay for a player to grab every dollar,but if an owner maximize profit, he robbing us?

Ok, baseball players play for a living, like that's their job. I don't think a single owner in sports owns their team as their primary stream of income.  Few players are set up for lucrative careers once they retire.  Most owners are independently wealthy.  Put it this way, if you have enough money to own a team, you can live super easily off draws from your investments without your investments even losing money.  In fact, you will pay 14% capital gains on the stocks that increased in value.  Compare that to the 40% players will pay in income tax.  So yeah there's a pretty big difference from that standpoint.

[jimmer]

 

The part that sucks about that is that I don't view Mauer as a great baserunner.  I'd like my top of the order guys to be very good on the bases.  Mauer isn't speedy or particularly adept at baserunning.  He's not terrible, but just not what I like at the top of the order.

That's interesting because people have always said he's an exceptionally smart base runner.  Fangraphs has him as above average base runner as well even without the speed. In fact, they have him as the 5th best baserunner among 1Bs. Not bad for an older player who used to play catcher.  There are 3 current Twins who are rated better. Dozier, Buxton and Rosario.  Do we want Buxton and Rosario batting in the top 2 spots?

 

He's baseball smart and has good instincts. But yeah, not fast.  I'll take the guy with 80 or more OBP points getting more PAs than a fast guy with an OBP 80 points lower. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by jimmer

[Mike Sixel]

 

It's okay for a player to grab every dollar,but if an owner maximize profit, he robbing us?

 

someone said that?

[Jham]

That being said, 1st base would be the single easiest and cheapest spot to upgrade on the entire roster.  The league has many guys who can hit, but can't field, but can pick a little 1st base.  You can get those guys cheap and possibly even just fill from within for pennies.

 

There are many ways to construct a roster.  You can have a high OBP guy at first and have a slugger at short.  Again, slugging first basemen are cheap slugging short stops or catchers are like Mauer expensive.  Regardless of the contract, the team improves if we put a slugger at first since we don't have to find a slugger to play up the middle (hard to find, super expensive vs. easy to find and relatively cheap) in order to balance the line up.  

 

Basically, the argument should not be whether or not Mauer has value.  It should be whether or not we can improve at that position.  That should be the review for everyone on the team.   

[wsnydes]

 

That's interesting because people have always said he's an exceptionally smart base runner.  Fangraphs has him as above average base runner as well even without the speed. In fact, they have him as the 5th best baserunner among 1Bs. Not bad for an older player who used to play catcher.  There are 3 current Twins who are rated better. Dozier, Buxton and Rosario.  Do we want Buxton and Rosario batting in the top 2 spots?

 

He's baseball smart and has good instincts. But yeah, not fast.  I'll take the guy with 80 or more OBP points getting more PAs than a fast guy with an OBP 80 points lower. 

5th best among 1B doesn't really say much...They aren't exactly an athletic bunch.  I don't really see much of this roster as being particularly great on the base paths either, so comparing him in that context doesn't do much for me either.  I just don't think this team has been a great baserunning team for the last handful of years.  The lack of SB attempts reflects that, even with Gardy's reluctance to send guys.  If the talent was there, he would have used it.

 

Buxton in particular would be everyone's choice at the top if he would get on base more.  Obviously that isn't happening right now, so no I don't want him there right now.

 

All that being said, Mauer at the 2 is a better option than most on this current roster.  He isn't my ideal #2 for reasons already stated, but I don't have a better candidate at this time either.  The roster simply isn't constructed in a way that provides a viable #1 and #2 hitter.  I agree that Mauer is baseball smart and generally has good instincts, I just don't think baserunning is a strength of his though.  He's much stronger defensively and at the plate.

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

It's okay for a player to grab every dollar,but if an owner maximize profit, he robbing us?

Cool story. Find a post where I've lambasted ownership for making a profit.

[DrNeau]

Would one of the mods please re-label this thread "Tracking Mauer?" K thx.

Can we beg the mods to lock this thread, too, because we can't stand the very blasphemy of questioning the great Joe Mauer?

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'd prefer to keep Sano at third for as long as possible. In a lost season, we may as well find out if he can hack it at a more premium position.

 

Getting Polanco playing time would be nice but with Park in Rochester and Sano in Minnesota, I think the long-term play is Miguel at third (if possible).

 

Either way, it's not something I'm going to get too riled up about. As long as Sano stays in the infield, I'm moderately happy.

 

I don't mind Sano playing third either, but the point is - you can better utilize your talents if a guy whose only skill appears to be taking walks isn't playing 1B for you.

[Mr. Brooks]

...

 

 

Why shouldn't he leave money on the table?

Because in baseball contracts are guaranteed. Both teams take on some risk when they sign one. If the Twins weren't willing to take the risk that Mauer wouldn't be worth the money, they shouldn't have signed on the dotted line.

 

If the owners want a more performance based pay system, that's something they can attempt in the CBA. Barring that, Mauer has done nothing to breach the contract that both parties signed, and until/unless he does, he's entitled to every last penny.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't mind Sano playing third either, but the point is - you can better utilize your talents if a guy whose only skill appears to be taking walks isn't playing 1B for you.

I'm not ready to bench Mauer but I'm all for sitting him at least once a week, probably twice, to get younger guys more reps. It's not like Joe's stat line matters this season anyway.

[Mr. Brooks]

It's okay for a player to grab every dollar,but if an owner maximize profit, he robbing us?

Criticizing Twins ownership for being cheap is not the same thing as expecting Mauer to give back money.

The Twins play out of a publicly funded stadium. It the Pohlad's paid for their own facilities I wouldn't care one iota how cheap they decided to be.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Mr. Brooks

[Squirrel]

 

Can we beg the mods to lock this thread, too, because we can't stand the very blasphemy of questioning the great Joe Mauer?

Ask that again and I'll be happy to lock your account for a time. Keep it to topic or don't post.

[DrNeau]

Basically, the argument should not be whether or not Mauer has value. It should be whether or not we can improve at that position.

Good point. The Twins can certainly do better than a .380 slugging percentage at 1B. Mauer's lack of power is a very important topic to discuss.

[ken]

 

Ok, baseball players play for a living, like that's their job. I don't think a single owner in sports owns their team as their primary stream of income.  Few players are set up for lucrative careers once they retire.  Most owners are independently wealthy.  Put it this way, if you have enough money to own a team, you can live super easily off draws from your investments without your investments even losing money.  In fact, you will pay 14% capital gains on the stocks that increased in value.  Compare that to the 40% players will pay in income tax.  So yeah there's a pretty big difference from that standpoint.

I understand your point, but Mauer isn't actually hurting for money and also isn't in the need for a lucrative career after his playing days.  It's a billionaire versus multi-millionaire.  We are upset if the billionaire doesn't spend enough of his money because we feel we paid for the stadium. But we shouldn't be upset with the multi-millionaire who contract is paid by the money made at the publicly financed stadium if he underperforms expectations.

[Minniman]

 

Because in baseball contracts are guaranteed. Both teams take on some risk when they sign one. If the Twins weren't willing to take the risk that Mauer wouldn't be worth the money, they shouldn't have signed on the dotted line.

If the owners want a more performance based pay system, that's something they can attempt in the CBA. Barring that, Mauer has done nothing to breach the contract that both parties signed, and until/unless he does, he's entitled to every last penny.

 

It isn't like he is earning twice minimum wage here.

 

It would be nice if the NFL and MLB went with a buyout system like the NHL. It is more fair to the player than the NFL and more fair to everyone else than MLB

 

[Mr. Brooks]

It isn't like he is earning twice minimum wage here.

 

It would be nice if the NFL and MLB went with a buyout system like the NHL. It is more fair to the player than the NFL and more fair to everyone else than MLB

The amount he's making has no bearing on the argument. Contracts don't become meaningless just because the salary is an obscene amount.

 

And a buyout system would be pointless in MLB. The buyout is only for cap relief. The player still gets his money, you just don't have to count it all towards the salary cap.

MLB doesn't have a salary cap. An NHL type buyout changes nothing in regards to Mauer.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Mauer threads are a lot like Mauer himself at this point.  You might forget about them for a few days, but they're always there, and always will be there, just easy to overlook.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Mauer threads are a lot like Mauer himself at this point.  You might forget about them for a few days, but they're always there, and always will be there, just easy to overlook.

This Mauer thread is always second or third down on the forum list when I notice it. At this point I would be happy if the mods permanently pinned it 7th.

[Pius Jefferson]

I'll throw out the R word after his contract ends in 2018. 

 

 

[twinsnorth49]

This Mauer thread is always second or third down on the forum list when I notice it. At this point I would be happy if the mods permanently pinned it 7th.

Think lower....

[Minniman]

 

And a buyout system would be pointless in MLB. The buyout is only for cap relief. The player still gets his money, you just don't have to count it all towards the salary cap.
MLB doesn't have a salary cap. An NHL type buyout changes nothing in regards to Mauer.

 

In an NHL buyout, a team can terminate the contract of a player and escape both part of the salary and salary cap charges. If the player is younger than 26 years old, he will receive one-third of the remaining value of the contract. If the player is 26 or older, he will receive two-thirds the original value of the deal. The cap hit charged to the NHL team is spread out over a period of twice the remaining the length of the contract.

 

Regardless of the lack of a cap in MLB, being able to cut a player and pay only 2/3 of the remaining salary over an extended period would have its advantages.

[Mr. Brooks]

In an NHL buyout, a team can terminate the contract of a player and escape both part of the salary and salary cap charges. If the player is younger than 26 years old, he will receive one-third of the remaining value of the contract. If the player is 26 or older, he will receive two-thirds the original value of the deal. The cap hit charged to the NHL team is spread out over a period of twice the remaining the length of the contract.

 

Regardless of the lack of a cap in MLB, being able to cut a player and pay only 2/3 of the remaining salary over an extended period would have its advantages.

OK, I was misinformed regarding the NHL buyout process. I'm amazed that the players agreed to that. They must have an incredibly weak union.