Paul mad! Paul smash!

[jimmer]

 

Ramirez should have been ejected. Hitters who flip their bats like that for home runs that land in the first row have no respect for the game, and I wouldn't care if he was suspended for the rest of the season. As for Nolasco and Molitor; who may have overreacted, next year would be a better time to settle this.

I think ejecting a player for not breaking any rule in the MLB rulebook, while also not causing anyone physical harm, is a bad idea. I believe suspending him is equally a bad idea.  I think giving that kind of power to umpires, some who already often already abuse their power, is a bad idea.  I think ejecting a player for hurting the feelings of opposing players is a bad idea.

 

And I doubt anyone would like it if some of our players did the same thing, which has been known to happen, and had those same penalties enforced.

[USAFChief]

 

Teams do get pissy about walk-offs and they do get pissed at showy pitchers.  

 

You could look up at least an hour's worth of clips of whiny players being mad at the emotion of Carlos Gomez alone.

Actually, they don't get pissy about walk-offs, provided the emotion of the walk-off is genuine, and not directed at the other team.

 

The players, and coaches, can recognize the difference.  

 

Again...the Twins have given up over a hundred homers this season, and didn't have an issue with them.  That this one did--and even the opposing manager didn't like it--should perhaps cause a more nuanced examination of what actually happened, and why.

 

Still don't like the explanation?  Fine.  I disagree, but fine.

 

But don't ignore the explanation.

 

 

[Kwak]

This wouldn't have happened if the Twins allow Nolasco to pitch to Kipnis!  The IBB was just as bush-league as the bat flip,  Kipnis represented a meaningless run and walking him in this situation yells that Ramirez is just an easy out.  OK, he feels disrespected (get used to that kid) and he seizes his golden opportunity to express himself.  Face it, the Twins were well aware that an IBB could backfire (and spectacularly so!) and chose to use this pointless tactic.  They should have been angered at themselves not Ramirez.

[mikecgrimes]

Easy to say, until someone gets a broken wrist by a thrown ball. The ones making too big of a deal of it are the ones that think he did something wrong, and that the other team should respond with violence. yes, someone who flipped a bat should be attacked with violence.....

I'm not saying they should throw at him, but if they do or if some team next year does he might get a broken wrist. That's his problem at that point. 2 wrongs doesn't make a right but one wrong often leads to two wrongs and a bad situation. What's wrong with showing people a little respect?

[jimmer]

Someone throwing at a defenseless batter resulting in a broken wrist is the batter's problem because some team felt disrespect? That's another way of justifying it.  

 

And as far as the question, 'what's wrong with showing people a little respect' (in this case, the perceived disrespect Ramirez showed by flipping a bat), did the Twins show him respect by walking Kipnis in a blow out late in the game in order to face him? Some people might find that disrespectful, like the batter himself perhaps.  I'm not sure either one is (I personally feel there are other strategic reasons to walk a guy and that flipping a bat is no biggy) but certainly if both are disrespectful one isn't moreso than the other.  And both are within the rules to do.  When the strategy doesn't work because your pitcher served up a meatball to a guy with an OPS under .650 and he crushes it, the fault lies with the execution of the pitch.

[TNTwinsFan]

I don't think any one here is suggesting we should throw at him.

 

Some are guessing that they WILL throw at him though.

I would. Below shoulders, above the knees. Ribs or butt would be what I aimed at. Probably take something off of it too.

[TNTwinsFan]

Molly should have flew out of the dugout with one hand in the air flipping the bird and the other hand cupping his junk and then met him at home plate with a firm kick to his wheeener! Problem solved.

I know you're being sarcastic, but that post earns my votr for the BEST POST of the year!

[Willihammer]

 

Someone throwing at a defenseless batter resulting in a broken wrist is the batter's problem because some team felt disrespect? That's another way of justifying it.  

 

And as far as the question, 'what's wrong with showing people a little respect' (in this case, the perceived disrespect Ramirez showed by flipping a bat), did the Twins show him respect by walking Kipnis in a blow out late in the game in order to face him? Some people might find that disrespectful, like the batter himself perhaps.  I'm not sure either one is (I personally feel there are other strategic reasons to walk a guy and that flipping a bat is no biggy) but certainly if both are disrespectful one isn't moreso than the other.  And both are within the rules to do.  When the strategy doesn't work because your pitcher served up a meatball to a guy with an OPS under .650 and he crushes it, the fault lies with the execution of the pitch.

No it was not a personal jab at Ramirez by the Twins to intentionally walk one of the 2-3 best 2Bs in the game (and a LHH to boot) in the heat of a wildcard chase. It was a tactical move, obviously.

[Dr. Evil]

 

This wouldn't have happened if the Twins allow Nolasco to pitch to Kipnis!  The IBB was just as bush-league as the bat flip,  Kipnis represented a meaningless run and walking him in this situation yells that Ramirez is just an easy out.  OK, he feels disrespected (get used to that kid) and he seizes his golden opportunity to express himself.  Face it, the Twins were well aware that an IBB could backfire (and spectacularly so!) and chose to use this pointless tactic.  They should have been angered at themselves not Ramirez.

I would contend that the two are not the same. Walking Kipnis who has a higher chance of getting a hit to get to a guy who has a lower chance is called strategy. Acting like a moron is something completely different than strategy. My 2-cents.

[jimmer]

 

No it was not a personal jab at Ramirez by the Twins to intentionally walk one of the 2-3 best 2Bs in the game (and a LHH to boot) in the heat of a wildcard chase. It was a tactical move, obviously.

I believe I made it clear I didn't think it was disrespectful, but the batter himself may have figured that it was disrespectful. If he did figure that, should the disrespect he felt be discarded as irrational while, at the same time, a bat flip should definitely be considered disrespectful? 

 

Also, as far as the timing of the IBB, let's not pretend they walked him during a close game and/or early in the game.  It was 7-1 and the Twins had one more half inning left to catch up. So, again, while I don't think the flipping of the bat or the intentional walk are disrespectful, the batter may have felt that.

[mikecgrimes]

Despite the 6 run lead and the long shot of a 6 run 9th it was the right move to avoid facing a good hitter with a runner in scoring position. The Twins didn't disrespect him anymore then the stat page in the Cleveland planes dealer.

[gocgo]

One more note on Francona.  Do you want your young gun to show up an up and coming divisional opponent with a lot of good young players that you are going to have to deal with for years to come?  They will remember.  Molly will remember.  He's wise to do damage control.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

No it was not a personal jab at Ramirez by the Twins to intentionally walk one of the 2-3 best 2Bs in the game (and a LHH to boot) in the heat of a wildcard chase. It was a tactical move, obviously.

Ramirez is a switch hitter, so it wasn't really for platoon reasons.  And the defensive position of Kipnis is completely irrelevant in that situation.

 

In fact, the most telling thing was that we brought in Nolasco to pitch for the first time at any level in almost 4 months.  That's not something you do when you want to aggressively hold a 6-7 run deficit for the last 2 innings of a game.  That's something you do when you recognize a game is out of reach and you want to get a look at a guy and hopefully have him soak up a couple innings.

 

Edit to clarify, I also don't think it was a personal jab at Ramirez, but Ramirez probably felt slighted as would many pro athletes in that situation.  Probably just as slighted as the Twins dugout felt by the bat flip when down by 9 runs.

[TNTwinsFan]

One more note on Francona.  Do you want your young gun to show up an up and coming divisional opponent with a lot of good young players that you are going to have to deal with for years to come?  They will remember.  Molly will remember.  He's wise to do damage control.

THIS.

 

Hence: unwritten rules (self policing is GOOD folks)

[bird]

Just had a phone conversation and a chuckle with my adult child about all the hoopla over this. He reminded me of something he was advised when he was much younger, which is to pay absolutely no attention to what a baseball player says or does outside of the chalk lines, ever. He reminded me that this player, whose name actually escaped us both, flipped the bat in foul territory. As were the players bitching from the dugout.

[Hrbowski]

 

I think ejecting a player for not breaking any rule in the MLB rulebook, while also not causing anyone physical harm, is a bad idea. I believe suspending him is equally a bad idea.  I think giving that kind of power to umpires, some who already often already abuse their power, is a bad idea.  I think ejecting a player for hurting the feelings of opposing players is a bad idea.

 

And I doubt anyone would like it if some of our players did the same thing, which has been known to happen, and had those same penalties enforced.

He actually did break a written rule; unless I am remembering wrong, but I think there is a rule against throwing equipment, which he obviously did. Suspending him would probably be going too far, but it would be for his own good, unless they decided to suspend all the Twins pitchers instead.

 

I know that in the past Twins players have been accused of showing opposing teams up, but I have never seen anything like this before, especially from such a low profile player. What he did was downright disrespectful, and even though that should not cause him to be ejected, him throwing the bat should.

[Major League Ready]

I don’t see the big deal about a bat flip but I am not a professional baseball player and I don’t completely understand their decorum.   However, I don’t need to understand their decorum.  The players, coaches and managers obviously knew it was a disrespectful.  My ignorance is irrelevant and I am not inclined to suggest that the Twins players should not have been offended by this obvious act of disrespect.

[jimmer]

 

He actually did break a written rule; unless I am remembering wrong, but I think there is a rule against throwing equipment, which he obviously did. Suspending him would probably be going too far, but it would be for his own good, unless they decided to suspend all the Twins pitchers instead.

 

I know that in the past Twins players have been accused of showing opposing teams up, but I have never seen anything like this before, especially from such a low profile player. What he did was downright disrespectful, and even though that should not cause him to be ejected, him throwing the bat should.

Are you saying that tossing a bat in the fashion he did calls for an ejection of a player and that there are rules that say this?  If so (and I've never heard that rule and would like to see it) it's the job of the umpire to enforce it, no?  Where is the outrage about the umpire not tossing him?  There isn't any because that's not what it's about.  If it's in the book, I doubt it says in the rule book that if the bat flip is perceived as disrespectful to the opposing player he should be tossed.  

 

Now I have seen players tossed for doing that, but it's been at the plate and in a conflict with the umpire, but that's usually more about the umpire and his interpretation of arguing calls or whatever he hides behind.

[Willihammer]

 

I believe I made it clear I didn't think it was disrespectful, but the batter himself may have figured that it was disrespectful. If he did figure that, should the disrespect he felt be discarded as irrational while, at the same time, a bat flip should definitely be considered disrespectful? 

 

Also, as far as the timing of the IBB, let's not pretend they walked him during a close game and/or early in the game.  It was 7-1 and the Twins had one more half inning left to catch up. So, again, while I don't think the flipping of the bat or the intentional walk are disrespectful, the batter may have felt that.

Kipnis is a premier player batting .850. He is a two time all star who has gotten MVP votes.

 

Ramires is 23 y/o futility infielder.

 

If Ramirez took the IBB to Kipnis as a personal jab then I hope the Twins bean him for being an idiot. Maybe it will knock some sense into him.

 

If Ramirez flipped his bat for any other reason then I hope they bean him too for being an idiot and also to stoke a rivalry for next season. Only if the game presents an easy opportunity though.

[jimmer]

 

Kipnis is a premier player batting .850. He is a two time all star who has gotten MVP votes.

 

Ramires is 23 y/o futility infielder.

 

If Ramirez took the IBB to Kipnis as a personal jab then I hope the Twins bean him for being an idiot. Maybe it will knock some sense into him.

 

If Ramirez flipped his bat for any other reason then I hope they bean him too for being an idiot and also to stoke a rivalry for next season. Only if the game presents an easy opportunity though.

Maybe that beaning you advocate puts him out for multiple weeks, the season or give him a concussion that will cause long time issues. That will teach him to flip a bat.

[nicksaviking]

If I had a coworker come to my cube, loudly brag about how awesome he is and do a silly dance, I wouldn't berate him in front of the whole office, I would let him make his scene thus indicating to the rest of the audience that there was only one idiot involved in the situation.

 

Every time we see this occur in the real world, the "victim" is always the one who looks the worst.  If this was a road rage incident where a cut off driver followed home and screamed at the perpetrator, I doubt there would be much debate that this is a move based on poor impulse control and rooted in ridiculous vengeance.

 

These ballplayers are supposed to be professionals, I don't understand how the Twins yelling back at an opposing player who is causing no harm other than to a few fragile egos is any different.

 

Letting it appear that it doesn't bother you is easily the most face saving decision. 

[Winston Smith]

Actually there is a rule about players using obscene language. Both Moli and Suzuki could have been ejected.

 

[jimmer]

 

Actually there is a rule about players using obscene language. Both Moli and Suzuki could have been ejected.

yeah, but the Twins did that and they were provoked by a horrendous and inexcusable act of bat flipping, so it's okay. As is beaning him with a 90+ MPH thrown from roughly 56 feet away :-)

[Craig Arko]

Peace is the answer.

 

http://deadspin.com/referee-kills-player-then-gets-beheaded-at-brazilian-so-685459212

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Kipnis is a premier player batting .850. He is a two time all star who has gotten MVP votes.

 

Ramires is 23 y/o futility infielder.

 

If Ramirez took the IBB to Kipnis as a personal jab then I hope the Twins bean him for being an idiot. Maybe it will knock some sense into him.

 

If Ramirez flipped his bat for any other reason then I hope they bean him too for being an idiot and also to stoke a rivalry for next season. Only if the game presents an easy opportunity though.

Again, you ignore that there were 2 outs, a 6 run deficit, the runner at second for the previous two batters (both of whom struck out), a switch hitter due up (with an earlier double off another RHP), and a pitcher effectively rehabbing on the mound.

 

Kipnis is a nice player, but you don't normally intentionally walk him in that scenario unless you think very little of the batter behind him.

 

Once that is established, I think it makes sense that the batter would feel slighted, and especially excited by an outcome that runs counter to the opposing team's judgment of him.

 

It can still be a jerk display, and the Twins are welcome to respond in kind (although I'd stop short of throwing at batters, ever), but acting like the kid is an idiot completely ignores the context of the play.

[TwinsCD]

 

People pose and watch their homeruns - I'm OK with that.

People flip bats - I'm OK with that

 

Most of the time people do one or the other, because the bat flip is part of the swing recoil.

 

This was not the case with our buddy last night.

 

He posed. He then carried his bat a quarter of the way down the line and flipped it. Not just any bat flip. A pretty big bat flip. A clearly purposeful big bat flip right in front of the Twins dugout. For a homerun that meant NOTHING.

 

As has been pointed out. At the end of the day, what does it really matter? I suppose nothing, other than some young player being an a-hole for no real reason. Baseball tends not to like young twerp a-holes though.

 

This was probably the response I most agreed with on here (and nice avatar btw).  But reading through this, I wonder how many on here have played a sport and/or have been competitive about it.  You don't do what Ramirez did last night.  Whether it's your 1st home run, 6th (in his case) home run or your 500th home run.  You can watch it as you go down the line, that was fine.  But to watch it, slowly jog, and then flip the bat like he's a stinkin' majorette at a football game?  No, no chance.  The Twins are already ticked that they're losing a near must-win game and then to see that, I totally understand their anger.  And what Rosario did as he ran by him after he hit his home run may be enough vigilante justice.  I imagine Ramirez probably got a stern talking to in the clubhouse afterwards given how old-school Francona is.  If you want to be PC and are part of the participation award crew, then go ahead and be mad at the Twins for getting all uptight about it.  But as a competitor and someone who wants to win, that kind of showmanship deserves a pitch between the numbers (preferably when the Twins are up 8-1 and delivered by a pitcher we don't need this weekend).

[TheLeviathan]

 

THIS.

Hence: unwritten rules (self policing is GOOD folks)

 

Um, no.  If it did work, we'd see actual changes in behavior.  Yet it keeps happening (and will continue to happen) precisely because it doesn't work.

 

Hell, we're a year removed from a manager having his players throw at a guy for bunting against the shift in the first inning of a 5-0 game.

 

Or stealing a base in the 7th up 3-1.

 

The unwritten rules and self-policing emboldens the jerks to act like jerks, not improve decorum.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Ramirez is actually an interesting player.  Just turned 23 years old, but he debuted in MLB at age 20.  .304 average in the minors in mostly pitcher's leagues, and not a BABIP fluke (very few strikeouts), and what looks like developing power.  120 wRC+ at AAA according to Fangraphs.

 

Still a rough bat in MLB but good versatile glove and baserunning, worth 3.4 WAR at B-Ref in 621 career MLB PA so far.

 

Only 5'9" tall.  I could see him having a chip on his shoulder about being pegged as a non-prospect by  many despite his performance and now a "futility infielder".

[SwainZag]

 

I believe I made it clear I didn't think it was disrespectful, but the batter himself may have figured that it was disrespectful. If he did figure that, should the disrespect he felt be discarded as irrational while, at the same time, a bat flip should definitely be considered disrespectful? 

 

Also, as far as the timing of the IBB, let's not pretend they walked him during a close game and/or early in the game.  It was 7-1 and the Twins had one more half inning left to catch up. So, again, while I don't think the flipping of the bat or the intentional walk are disrespectful, the batter may have felt that.

 

No team has ever come back from 6 in the 9th to a win a game this year......oh wait...

[nicksaviking]

 

 If it did work, we'd see actual changes in behavior.  Yet it keeps happening (and will continue to happen) precisely because it doesn't work.

 

I agree.  I didn't stop acting like an idiot teenager (when I was 25) because adults were yelling at me all the time, I stopped because I saw how other adults functioned in this world and realized how annoying teenagers were.

 

The kid walking down the street with his pants half-way down his butt looks like a moron, the old guy screaming at him to pull them up looks even worse, and because he's making a big deal out of such a trivial offense, now his motives are going to be questioned.