Escobar's slash line since the Santana demotion

[Oxtung]

 

Ryan publicly backed Gardy last year, then asked for Santana to be moved permanently to short.  Gardy publicly stated Santana in CF and Esco at SS gave them the best chance to win (he finally gave in).  Gardy was then fired.  You may not think there was a connection there, but I do, and I think Molitor was well aware.  Moli's credit, he probably did and said what he had to in order to get the manager position, and got out of it without completely costing the team.  Good finesse.

Why does it have to be something this nefarious? Couldn't it just be that the Twins see what we all see, an unbelievable athlete with the potential to be a well above average SS defensively and average offensively if he ever puts it all together?  Perhaps he has a ways to go but is anybody arguing he doesn't have the tools?

[Reider]

I supported the Twins for giving both Florimon and Santana opportunities @ SS because of their skill sets. Unfortunately, it's one thing to have a great skill set, it's another thing to play consistently at the MLB level.

 

Now I support the Twins in giving Escobar more time @ SS. He's been playing hard, making plays, and crushing the ball. Hopefully he can keep it up and help this team make the playoffs!

[kab21]

I just don't understand how Escobar does it.  He isn't this good but he is the best (or only) option that the Twins have so keep running him out there.  And probably next year also since you don't find good SS's easily.

 

I still think it is funny that people ever criticized the Liriano trade.  Liriano didn't have any value after two straight 5 ERA seasons.  We should have been happy to get a utility player in that trade.

[twinssouth]

Escobar showed some serious power in Tampa. Thursdays hr was to dead center, over 400ft, same spot Sano hit his. He also showed good range, made all the plays. This guy should get more respect.

[jorgenswest]

You might recall two off seasons ago when there was so much interest here in the Twins signing JD Drew. If they had done so they not only would have had his declining performance, they would not have given Escobar a chance to develop.

 

Signing middling veterans in decline can stall the growth of a franchise. This is one case where the Twins got it right.

[Mike Sixel]

Why does it have to be something this nefarious? Couldn't it just be that the Twins see what we all see, an unbelievable athlete with the potential to be a well above average SS defensively and average offensively if he ever puts it all together? Perhaps he has a ways to go but is anybody arguing he doesn't have the tools?

The list of great athletes that aren't great professionals in sports is really long. At some point, it is about production. He clearly was not ready this year. The issue was how long it took them to decide that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You might recall two off seasons ago when there was so much interest here in the Twins signing JD Drew. If they had done so they not only would have had his declining performance, they would not have given Escobar a chance to develop.

Signing middling veterans in decline can stall the growth of a franchise. This is one case where the Twins got it right.

I was on board with a Drew signing and hooooooo boy, was I wrong about that.

 

I'm with kab on the Liriano trade... Francisco was not a good pitcher and hadn't been one for quite some time. Getting anything for him was a decent move. People talk about how Ryan doesn't "sell high" and while there might be some truth to it with the Willingham situation - though I believe teams were unwilling to offer real value for him - Ryan inherited a team with Joe Mauer and a bunch of bad players. It involves some pretty sizable rewriting of history to think he had opportunities to move players for value after the Span and Revere deals.

 

The Twins were a 63 win team for a reason... They didn't have good players on the roster. It's impossible to "sell high" when all your players are varying degrees of "bad at baseball".

[Brock Beauchamp]

Escobar has reached the rarified air of "lulz" in the month of August:

 

.306 .375 .597 .972

 

fWAR now up to a pretty amazing 0.6 considering the hole he was put in with all those OF innings.

 

His 2015 line is nothing to scoff at, either.

 

.257 .299 .432 .731

[jorgenswest]

Escobar has reached the rarified air of "lulz" in the month of August:

 

.306 .375 .597 .972

 

fWAR now up to a pretty amazing 0.6 considering the hole he was put in with all those OF innings.

 

His 2015 line is nothing to scoff at, either.

 

.257 .299 .432 .731

His fWAR split in 41 games at SS is 1.7

[Monkeypaws]

 

You might recall two off seasons ago when there was so much interest here in the Twins signing JD Drew. If they had done so they not only would have had his declining performance, they would not have given Escobar a chance to develop.

Signing middling veterans in decline can stall the growth of a franchise. This is one case where the Twins got it right.

Stephen Drew?

 

I agree, and that would have cost the Twins a 2nd as well.

 

Sometimes the best deals are those you don't make.

[nicksaviking]

 

I still think it is funny that people ever criticized the Liriano trade.  Liriano didn't have any value after two straight 5 ERA seasons.  We should have been happy to get a utility player in that trade.

I only criticized the trade because the Twins traded away one player who required a 40-man spot and took back two. I was more in favor of letting Liriano walk for nothing then muddle up the situation with what I thought were two bums as bad as anyone already on the 40-man. I was definitely wrong. Well half wrong, Hernandez wasn't useful in the least.

[USAFChief]

MI thought then, and still do, the move was to sign Liriano to a cheap 3 or 4 year extension.

[Otto von Ballpark]

To be fair, most folks weren't pro-Drew but rather anti-Florimon, which was correct.  And Drew was shipped out during the season just the same as Kendrys Morales, so he wouldn't have blocked anybody for too long.  Maybe Escobar would have seen more corner OF time in place of, say, Parmelee.

[jimmer]

 

You might recall two off seasons ago when there was so much interest here in the Twins signing JD Drew. If they had done so they not only would have had his declining performance, they would not have given Escobar a chance to develop.

 

I highly doubt this is true.  I doubt people were calling for JD Drew two seasons ago.  I'm also pretty sure signing JD Drew wouldn't have effected Escobar's development, at least at shortstop. :-)

[stringer bell]

Yeah, we know, Steven Drew, not big bro JD. I, for one, wasn't in favor of signing Drew and I was right about that.

 

Esco was a pretty good find for Terry Ryan. He can hit enough and play satisfactory defense.

 

I'm thinking right now that the Twins biggest weaknesses in the first half have all ticked up in the late going. Although Jepsen made the ninth last night way too interesting, the realigned bullpen has been outstanding for the last 10 days, Suzuki has picked up his play lately (passed ball notwithstanding) and Escobar has more than stabilized shortstop.

[Oxtung]

The list of great athletes that aren't great professionals in sports is really long. At some point, it is about production. He clearly was not ready this year. The issue was how long it took them to decide that.

So you agree with Jham, the reason that Santana played SS this year is because Ryan demanded it and not because he has the most range and the best arm of all the candidates?

[Oxtung]

I was on board with a Drew signing and hooooooo boy, was I wrong about that.

 

I'm with kab on the Liriano trade... Francisco was not a good pitcher and hadn't been one for quite some time. Getting anything for him was a decent move. People talk about how Ryan doesn't "sell high" and while there might be some truth to it with the Willingham situation - though I believe teams were unwilling to offer real value for him - Ryan inherited a team with Joe Mauer and a bunch of bad players. It involves some pretty sizable rewriting of history to think he had opportunities to move players for value after the Span and Revere deals.

 

The Twins were a 63 win team for a reason... They didn't have good players on the roster. It's impossible to "sell high" when all your players are varying degrees of "bad at baseball".

How about Suzuki, Doumit, Mauer, Burton, Fien or Perkins? He doubled down instead on every one of those contracts and lost.

[Jham]

 

How about Suzuki, Doumit, Mauer, Burton, Fien or Perkins? He doubled down instead on every one of those contracts and lost.

 

Hmmm...  Hard for me to say that any of those were horrible signings or non-trades.  Revisionist history might say we held on to some of them too long.  I've been on the record as saying our lack of aggressive signings and over-reliance on youth hurt us more than anything.  We didn't have enough depth to trade and were more or less forced to keep guys past their peak value.  Is Santana yet another one of those?  Time will tell I guess... but if Esco ends up being average or above for the next couple years, and Santana ends up being anything less than Esco, it would appear we missed an opportunity to flip him for value after or during last season.

Santana has better defensive tools, but I think it's a stretch to say that he has better hit tools than Esco whose hit tools may need re-evaluation.  I don't think anyone is saying Ryan was wrong for wanting to move Santana back to short and give his upside a shot.  I think we're frustrated that a single player's development trumped the immediate need of the team when Santana projects as a likely stop-gap anyhow.
 

[Brock Beauchamp]

How about Suzuki, Doumit, Mauer, Burton, Fien or Perkins? He doubled down instead on every one of those contracts and lost.

I don't have a big problem with the Suzuki contract. My problem with Suzuki is that they haven't tried very hard to transition him out of a starting role. He's a fine catcher if you start him

 

And Doumit, eh, whatever. As a 24th man, he was... Whatever. I simply did not care. He was a severely flawed backup player on a bad team.

 

The relievers were mistakes. No argument there... Excepting Perkins. The jury is very much out on Perkins.

 

And what about Mauer? Ryan hasn't negotiated a contract with Mauer since 2006 or so.

[Oxtung]

I don't have a big problem with the Suzuki contract. My problem with Suzuki is that they haven't tried very hard to transition him out of a starting role. He's a fine catcher if you start him <70 times a season.

And Doumit, eh, whatever. As a 24th man, he was... Whatever. I simply did not care. He was a severely flawed backup player on a bad team.

The relievers were mistakes. No argument there... Excepting Perkins. The jury is very much out on Perkins.

And what about Mauer? Ryan hasn't negotiated a contract with Mauer since 2006 or so.

Both Suzuki and Doumit had a 120 OPS+ at the deadline coming from the catcher spot. That is worth something decent, not top 100 talent perhaps but something valuable. Mauer could have been traded in 2012 or 13, can't remember which anymore, to the Red Sox who were very interested. Perkins had great value before he was extended and while performing well now, given the volatility of elite relief pitchers there is a very good chance this doesn't end well.

 

Perhaps not all of those players should have been moved but I think it's hard to argue that Ryan sells high.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Both Suzuki and Doumit had a 120 OPS+ at the deadline coming from the catcher spot. That is worth something decent, not top 100 talent perhaps but something valuable. Mauer could have been traded in 2012 or 13, can't remember which anymore, to the Red Sox who were very interested. Perkins had great value before he was extended and while performing well now, given the volatility of elite relief pitchers there is a very good chance this doesn't end well.

Perhaps not all of those players should have been moved but I think it's hard to argue that Ryan sells high.

Mauer can't be traded without Mauer's permission.

 

And the 2015 Twins are not fighting for a playoff spot without Glen Perkins.

 

Suzuki may have had a little value in 2014 but at best, he would have brought back a low minors prospect with marginal upside. Maybe a top 200 prospect and certainly nothing approaching a top 100 prospect. Doumit would have returned even less because he was a catcher only in name.

[Otto von Ballpark]

To be fair, I read the Perkins comment as more of a criticism of his extension, which may still end badly. His original contract ran through 2016 (team option).

[Brock Beauchamp]

To be fair, I read the Perkins comment as more of a criticism of his extension, which may still end badly. His original contract ran through 2016 (team option).

If people have trouble with a front office treating a hometown guy well with a very reasonable extension, I'm not sure what to say.

 

Perkins is owed $6.5m per season for two more seasons with an option for a third season in 2018.

 

I find it somewhat ironic that so many posters here want the Twins to operate in such a cutthroat manner that they'd probably quit if their own place of employment operated in a similar fashion.

 

I just can't get too riled up about the Twins rewarding Perkins with a few extra million dollars they may or may not have spent if Perkins wasn't on the roster.

[USAFChief]

Perkins is still cheap, if he maintains anything close to peak performance.

[jimbo92107]

Eduardo Escobar's dilemma is a little like Trevor May's. Both guys are so versatile, it's tempting to use them to fill holes, rather than putting them where they could do the most good long term.

 

Problem is, this short-term hole filling does work, if you've got guys that can do it. Escobar as utility guy did allow Molitor to give Danny Santana an extended tryout at short, and he filled in other places as needed. May in the pen allowed Molitor to see if Mike Pelfrey could still start - and Pelfrey has in fact done surprisingly well.

 

Unfortunately, the fact that the Twins need a couple super-utility guys like Escobar and May reveals a lack of stability in the starting lineup. It's hard to see how a patchwork team like this can go far in the post season.

[h2oface]

 

Playing Escobar at SS next year is a fine plan, as long as the team goes out and addresses the catching position.  

 

Personally, I think settling for an average shortstop with a weak arm, limited range, and average speed is a horrible plan, regardless of who is catching. But then, I have never been one to just accept mediocrity as a ceiling. I certainly am happy for the team that he is hitting recently. A .250 hitter will have streaks of both kinds, hot and cold. The rest of the year counts. When a person comes to the plate, it is the same experience, regardless of where they play in a couple of minutes in the field on defense.

[jorgenswest]

The average shortstop has a wRC+ of 86 (88 in 2014). Escobar was 102 last year and is 98 this year. That is well above the average shortstop. The Twins haven't seen a better two year run since 1981 and Roy Smalley. I think the only season since better than Escobar last year was a single good season from Guzman.

 

The Twins have far bigger problems relative to league split at catcher, right field and first base.

[Oxtung]

Mauer can't be traded without Mauer's permission.

And the 2015 Twins are not fighting for a playoff spot without Glen Perkins.

Suzuki may have had a little value in 2014 but at best, he would have brought back a low minors prospect with marginal upside. Maybe a top 200 prospect and certainly nothing approaching a top 100 prospect. Doumit would have returned even less because he was a catcher only in name.

I find it ironic that you're arguing Doumit and Suzuki would only bring back top 200 prospects at the same time you're pushing for Escobar to be the starting SS.

 

As for Mauer we will never know because the trade was never seriously pursued despite interest.

 

With Perkins only time will tell but history shows that relief pitchers and stability are rare combinations.

[jun]

Personally, I think settling for an average shortstop with a weak arm, limited range, and average speed is a horrible plan, regardless of who is catching. But then, I have never been one to just accept mediocrity as a ceiling. I certainly am happy for the team that he is hitting recently. A .250 hitter will have streaks of both kinds, hot and cold. The rest of the year counts. When a person comes to the plate, it is the same experience, regardless of where they play in a couple of minutes in the field on defense.

I disagree. I think Escobar has a good arm, not weak, and he throws accurately. He has quite a few outfield assists at the plate. He has average range and slightly above average speed. Plouffe is also a .250 hitter, isn't he? Escobar has already shown that he is an above average major league player at the age of 26. He should definitely be a starter on any team.

[kab21]

 

Personally, I think settling for an average shortstop with a weak arm, limited range, and average speed is a horrible plan, regardless of who is catching. But then, I have never been one to just accept mediocrity as a ceiling. I certainly am happy for the team that he is hitting recently. A .250 hitter will have streaks of both kinds, hot and cold. The rest of the year counts. When a person comes to the plate, it is the same experience, regardless of where they play in a couple of minutes in the field on defense.

The problem at both C and SS is that it is very difficult to find someone that is average defensively and offensively without paying a fortune in cash or prospects to acquire.  I think this makes it very likely that Escobar will start the season at SS next year.  This doesn't mean that I am a big fan of Escobar but rather that I am a realist at the quality of player available to replace him and the likely exorbitant cost to obtain that player.