Reusse blog: Last Comparable to Buxton Hype?

[Seth Stohs]

Patrick Reusse wrote a blog about who he recalls having as much hype as Byron Buxton upon his debut. His answer? 1993, David McCarty. 

 

He goes on to write about some of the things written about McCarty at the time of his promotion. Words like "savior" were used by actual writers. 

 

On Saturday night when it came out that Byron Buxton was going to be promoted, I went to Twitter and asked a similar question. I'll ask it here. 

 

In your lifetime, who do you think has generated the fan excitement for their MLB debut?

 

For me, the name that I think of is Justin Morneau. I remember him getting a standing ovation for his first MLB plate appearance.

 

Joe Mauer's debut was on Opening Day, so there were a lot of people there any way. 

 

I hardly remember the McCarty one, but upon reading Reusse's article, I do remember it now, and it was a big deal. 

 

Eddie Bane's was a big deal, but that was way before me. 

 

So, what are your thoughts?

[Platoon]

I remember Eddie Banes. But memory tells me his was based almost more on the need to sell tickets, and hype the team than ability for abilities sake. Anyone who thinks Buxton, or Sano, or Berrios, or any of the young guys is going to be a savior will be disappointed this year. This team has too many flaws, compounded with some very odd, and difficult roster decisions to make. They should just keep moving forward, filtering in prospects, making intelligent trades, and preparing for the future. If the playoffs fall into their lap, yippee! If not, so be it.

[USAFChief]

Eddie Bane.

[mikecgrimes]

If you exclude opening day debuts there's not much. I think we're really forgetting how high the expectations for mauer were though. He was supposed to hit close to .400

[Brock Beauchamp]

Eh, it's a good idea to temper peoples' expectations of prospects but McCarty is a bad comp. A really bad comp.

 

BA never had McCarty higher than 16th as a prospect.

 

McCarty couldn't play up-the-middle defense.

 

McCarty was two years older than Buxton when he debuted.

 

McCarty posted pretty pedestrian numbers through the minors until he got to play in the "ignore my numbers because this is a video game simulator" Pacific Coast League.

[Brock Beauchamp]

It should also be noted that McCarty had a MiLB OPS all of .030 higher than the memorable Twins slugger and all-time great (bullpen coach), Matt LeCroy.

 

There was hype for McCarty but it was misplaced hype.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

McCarty posted pretty pedestrian numbers through the minors until he got to play in the "ignore my numbers because this is a video game simulator" Pacific Coast League.

Yeah, 1992 should have been a major red flag for projecting McCarty.  He barely out-OPS'd Matt Walbeck, at the same age and in the same league.

 

Still probably shouldn't have been *quite* the disaster that he was in Minnesota (46 OPS+ as a rookie, 55 OPS+ in his Twins career -- interestingly close to Matt Walbeck's MLB numbers!), but his minor league numbers and later career very much suggest a Chris Parmelee type.

 

Or, looked at another way, the hitting version of Adam Johnson (3rd overall pick 2000).

[markominne]

I don't recall anything as extreme as the Buxton situation. The Eddie Bane thing was more a product of the Twins PA department, and the novelty of a college pitcher jumping directly into the major leagues. With his 85-mph fastball I don't think most for interested observers were seriously excited. Hype for McCarty was just people looking for any hope after the Twins mid-year collapse in 1992, and while his numbers at class-A Visalia were ridiculous, they were only based on 15 games and 66 AB. Kent Hrbek generated some interest because of his local ties, and great numbers at class-A Visalia, but he was a 17th round (?) draft pick with only 2 year's experience, and none above high-A. I recall that there was also a lot of interest in Tim Laudner when he came up - also a local guy, and his (if memory serves) 42-HR year at Orlando. Morneau hype was tempered by Dougie Baseball's popularity.  

 

So, I think the Buxton situation is pretty unique in Twins history, but the history of Eddie Bane and David McCarty in particular should serve as cautionary tales of inflated expectations. It's a big jump, and the danger of course is that Buxton will adopt the expectations of immediate success, and never live up to them. He seems to be a level-headed kid, so maybe he'll be able to handle it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Yeah, 1992 should have been a major red flag for projecting McCarty.  He barely out-OPS'd Matt Walbeck, at the same age and in the same league.

 

Still probably shouldn't have been *quite* the disaster that he was in Minnesota (46 OPS+ as a rookie, 55 OPS+ in his Twins career -- interestingly close to Matt Walbeck's MLB numbers!), but his minor league numbers and later career very much suggest a Chris Parmelee type.

 

Or, looked at another way, the hitting version of Adam Johnson (3rd overall pick 2000).

Definitely. I'm not arguing whether McCarty was a bust - he certainly was - but there should have been red flags surrounding his numbers and overall career arc in the minors when he debuted.

 

With Buxton, there are no such red flags. Zero. He's a prospect on the level of Joe Mauer. Not quite as refined as a player but he compensates for that "weakness" with speed so great that it's almost inhuman. His speed alone should make him a decent player, not to mention his hit tools and all around greatness at almost everything he does.

[spinowner]

Eddie Bane was probably never viewed by baseball people as a strong prospect. In June of 1973 the Texas Rangers announced that David Clyde, a Texas high school star they had drafted, would make his major league debut and the game sold out in a flash. Calvin Griffith saw the opportunity to do the same thing with his latest draftee and a couple weeks later Met Stadium was also sold out for Bane's debut. I was there, and I don't even remember how he and the Twins did, but Calvin's decision to hype his debut succeeded from a business standpoint.

[Doubles]

 

Eh, it's a good idea to temper peoples' expectations of prospects but McCarty is a bad comp. A really bad comp.

 

BA never had McCarty higher than 16th as a prospect.

 

McCarty couldn't play up-the-middle defense.

 

McCarty was two years older than Buxton when he debuted.

 

McCarty posted pretty pedestrian numbers through the minors until he got to play in the "ignore my numbers because this is a video game simulator" Pacific Coast League.

Not sure in what context you mean "bad comp."    The question revolved around "most-ballyhooed in-season debut for a prospect."    Wasn't a comparison to any other players based on ability, track record in the minors, or anywhere else.    Calling up the number 3 overall pick mid-season just two years after being drafted brought with it a certain amount of hype, even if it was 20+ years ago.

 

Obviously, the amount of information available publicly for baseball fans was not nearly what it is today.    For those that remember how the Strib was laid out then, Sunday was the big day for baseball reporting beyond the Twins.    I'm sure Baseball America or other baseball-exclusive periodicals were available, but for many of us growing up here, the Strib was it.    There was about 4 full pages dedicated to baseball if I remember correctly.    A couple of pages alone listed the batting stats for almost every prominent big-leaguer.    Another area was dedicated to showing the stats of all the minor league teams in the Twins' system.    That was about it as far as minor-league / prospect coverage went back in the day.    We weren't able to scroll though Seth's Twitter timeline to get detailed info about every prized prospects ABs like we are lucky enough to be able to do so often nowadays.       

 

I was at the Dome on the day McCarty made his debut.    McCarty was the subject of an almost ruthless amount of ribbing, from players, coaches, and the manager from the nanosecond he arrived at the ballpark.    Kirby Puckett, who in November of 1989 became the first $3MM player in MLB history, was all over McCarty.    "Hey man, new sheriff's in town!    Comin' to take Puck's job!    New sheriff in town!"    I musta heard Puck say that about 10 times that day.   

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Calling up the number 3 overall pick mid-season just two years after being drafted brought with it a certain amount of hype, even if it was 20+ years ago.

I was at Adam Johnson's home debut in 2001, just barely a year after him being drafted.  I don't recall much buzz -- a lot of desperation trying to find another starter by that point (Thomas and Lohse had already debuted).

 

Interestingly, I would have thought McCarty's promotion came after a Hrbek injury -- does not appear to be the case.  Looks like a Shane Mack injury initially brought McCarty to the roster, then he stayed on for a Hrbek injury and a Munoz injury.

 

McCarty even started 2 games in CF in September 1993, spelling Puckett (and Mack was out).  THAT I did not recall!

[d-mac]

Has the Buxton hype been that great outside of the hardcore Twins fans like us, and prospect enthusiasts? The casual Minnesotan sports has basically forgotten we have a baseball team anymore, most people I talk to aren't even aware of Buxton. '93 was two years after we won the World Series; In '15 the club hasn't been competitive for over 4 years.

[Doubles]

 

Has the Buxton hype been that great outside of the hardcore Twins fans like us, and prospect enthusiasts?

I think that could probably be said about almost every organization's prized prospects.

[jimbo92107]

It's interesting how Buxton's speed affected the game yesterday.

 

First time up, he struck out. On the other hand, he did show patience at the plate before his last flail.

 

Second time up, hot grounder to third. Easy out...oh, wait. He almost beat out the throw. Ominous.

 

Nothing much in the outfield. He scooped up a ball off the wall, watched a couple home runs soar over his head.

 

Top of the ninth, Escobar on second, Buxton lays down a not-good bunt in front of the pitcher, who pounces and fires to third, getting Escobar, who for some reason had a terribly short lead off second and got a really late start. What we may not have noticed was that the pitcher didn't have much choice where to throw. He probably couldn't get Buxton at first because the kid was too fast. BTW, that was Escobar's second mental mistake of the inning after missing a bunt sign with Robinson on third.

 

Buxton on first. His mere presence clearly upset the pitcher, who rushed his delivery and threw to first for no reason. Buxton never did take a big lead, twitch, bluff or anything. Just stood there. Dozier popped up.

 

Rosario up, same deal. Pitcher was clearly bothered by Buxton's threat of speed. Pitcher leaves a ball hanging in the middle, Rosario pounds it to right center. Buxton is rounding third by the time the ball is in the outfielder's glove. Buxton scores game-winning run.

 

Moral: Pressure. Buxton puts pressure on the other team, just by the threat of his extreme speed. It makes pitchers and fielders rush. It makes fans stand up to see what's next. What other tools does he have? He's supposed to be a talented hitter, and he's got a rifle arm. We'll be seeing that over the next week or so.

 

The stories about Byron Buxton aren't hype. His physical talent is all measurable, and his performance in the minors is on record. Obviously he won't hit a home run every time up, but over the course of a season this guy will put a lot of pressure on the other team, and it will show up in various ways, including more wins.

 

The best part is, he could get a lot better. His base stealing technique is practically non-existent, it's just speed. He didn't even take a long lead, drop his lead foot back, etc. If he improves his technique and reads, he could steal a base on every pitch.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

The best part is, he could get a lot better. His base stealing technique is practically non-existent, it's just speed. He didn't even take a long lead, drop his lead foot back, etc. If he improves his technique and reads, he could steal a base on every pitch.

We should be wary of predicting huge SB numbers - and avoid Henderson comps for Buxton at all costs - until we see Byron's baserunning smarts. I'm not saying you did this but I've seen Rickey's name bandied around the board far too often.

 

Rickey Henderson was fast but he wasn't the fastest guy in the history of baseball... Not even close. It was Rickey's baserunning smarts and Rickey's uncanny ability to know exactly when to run against a pitcher that made Rickey so great. Rickey was Rickey and I don't know if we'll ever see Rickey again because nobody is like Rickey.

 

Rickey.

 

(this post is an homage to Rickey always referring to Rickey in the third person)

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

It's interesting how Buxton's speed affected the game yesterday.

Great recap.

 

And no one better than Molitor to help Buxton reach his full base-stealing potential.

[SwainZag]

I will say this, with social media and quite frankly the internet it's much easier for a casual fan to know and follow baseball's top prospects.

[Steven Buhr]

 

Great recap.

 

And no one better than Molitor to help Buxton reach his full base-stealing potential.

Molitor has been working with Buxton on his base-stealing pretty much since the guy started his career with the Twins organization. You can read what the now-manager/then-roving instructor had to say about Buxton back in 2013 by clicking here.

 

Based on his success rate in Chattanooga, I'd say he's been improving in that area.

[Dman]

IIRC didn't McCarty bat like .370 out of Spring training and the reporters just had story after story about who did the Twins have that was hitting better than this kid and a ground swell of support ensued.  I thought I remembered an article about TK saying he wasn't ready but in the end he must have been over ruled.  

 

McCarty was more about a guy getting hot at the right time ala Hicks and not being able to live up to the hype.

 

I still question Buxtons hit tool, but he can't be much worse than what we have played out there so far this season and his defense and speed on the bases is outstanding.  He'll have to look bad at the plate to put this Genie back in the bottle.  Personally I like his odds to succeed.

[jimbo92107]

 

Molitor has been working with Buxton on his base-stealing pretty much since the guy started his career with the Twins organization. You can read what the now-manager/then-roving instructor had to say about Buxton back in 2013 by clicking here.

 

Based on his success rate in Chattanooga, I'd say he's been improving in that area.

Best part is, now Buxton will be getting a lot more individual attention. If he can learn just a little of what Ricky Henderson knew about stealing bases... look out!

[mikecgrimes]

I honestly think the Sano hype has been higher then Buxton's the fact Buxton passed him by sort of cools it down, but the average fan isn't impressed with beating out infield singles and scoring on shallow sac flys even if they love to watch it happen.  

 

By the way looking at Sano's #'s after hitting in the .100's most of April it appears he deserves to at least be called up to triple A pretty soon.

[Thrylos]

 

In your lifetime, who do you think has generated the fan excitement for their MLB debut?

 

Any team:  Mark Pryor with Steven Strasburg and Ken Griffey Jr being close.

Twins:  The guy who was drafted ahead of Pryor...

(I think that Reusse is getting senile, if he forgot the fans' excitement about Mauer's debut...)

[Benchwarmerjim]

Dave McCarty did not live up to the hype, but did carve out a 11 year career and got a 2004 World Series ring while playing a few games with Boston.

[sftwinsfan]

The Dave McCarty hype stands out to me.  Since then, probably the closest would be Morneau.  With the lack of all the resources we have today all people knew was McCarty was the 1991 Baseball America college player of the year, 3rd overall pick in the 1991 draft, and hit .385 in AAA with 8HR in 174 PAs that year.  If I remember correctly he also went on a tear in his first several games with a lot of hits as well before crashing to earth.  I also remember ESPN being all over it as well with his hot start.

 

Looking back at his stats, I wouldn't exactly call an .818 OPS pedestrian in his first full minor league season the year before between AA and AAA either.  Either way, hopefully Buxton turns out a lot better than that went.  

[BeenHazy]

I don't recall much about McCarty's debut either, but I do remember the hype around Willie Banks.  

 

Banks was the 3rd overall pick in 1987, and was followed as closely as any Twins prospect before Joe Mauer and the internet.  He was BA's #13 prospect pre-1990 and #15 pre-1991.  

 

The weakest part of the 1991 juggernaut was, by far, the back of the rotation after Morris, Erickson, and Tapani.  Mark Guthrie was removed from the rotation with a 5.66 ERA at the end of June, and Alan Anderson was relegated to the bullpen after a pair of terrible starts before the All-Star break and demoted to Portland before the end of July.  Paul Abbot and rookie Denny Neagle failed to establish themselves, and David West was looking shaky.  Meanwhile, Banks recovered from a poor first go with the Beavers to win 7 consecutive starts and got the call.

 

When Banks was eased into the Majors with a couple of mop-up innings July 31 at Yankee Stadium (the good kind of mop-up thanks to a Hrbek grand slam, two Mack dingers and another from Chili Davis), the Twins' lead had shrunk from 5.5 to 3 games in the face of a 10-2 surge by the White Sox and an 8-1 run by the 3-time defending AL champion A's.  It was looking as though three good starters wouldn't be enough to see the Twins to the pennant.

 

Banks was inserted into the rotation for an August 7 start at the Big A (road trips in those days were sometimes bi-costal).  He was staked to a 2 run lead with another Chili bomb in the top of the 1st.  The Angels immediately cut the lead to one with back-to-back-to-back singles, bringing up the still very dangerous Dave Winfield.  Banks got the future HOFer to ground one to first, then struck out Dave Parker and Gary Gaetti on a combined 7 pitches to strand two in scoring position.

 

Banks recorded at least one strikeout in each of his six innings that night, and after the first faced more than four batters only in the 5th, when Wally Joyner tagged him for a 2-out, 2-run double.  He struck out Winfield to end that threat.  Final line:  3 runs on 6 hits with 2 walks and 8 strikeouts.

 

I can't find any contemporary local accounts of Banks' first Metrodome start like Reusse did with McCarty, but I remember the anticipation and I'm sure that it was a bigger deal.  Banks got a rematch with the Angels under the Teflon on August 13.  The lead was down to 2 games over the still-hot ChiSox with the A's looming right behind.  Banks was a highly-touted rookie who was also seen as a potential savior in a pennant race.  He was 1-0, 3.38 with 11Ks in 8 innings.

 

41,354 fans were at that Tuesday night game, compared to 26,242 the next night and 31,880 on Thursday to see the last-place Halos.  The following midweek series against the competitive Mariners drew in the low to mid 30,000s, so I think it's fair to conclude that around 10,000 folks came just to see Willie.   

 

How did he do?  Let's just say that the Minnesota faithful were introduced to the real Willie Banks.  

 

 

 

 

 

[nater79a]

 

Eddie Bane was probably never viewed by baseball people as a strong prospect. In June of 1973 the Texas Rangers announced that David Clyde, a Texas high school star they had drafted, would make his major league debut and the game sold out in a flash. Calvin Griffith saw the opportunity to do the same thing with his latest draftee and a couple weeks later Met Stadium was also sold out for Bane's debut. I was there, and I don't even remember how he and the Twins did, but Calvin's decision to hype his debut succeeded from a business standpoint.

 

Yep. Eddie Bane would be my choice for most anticipated debut.

 

Also, his debut on 7/4/73 might have been his best game as a Twin!

[TheLeviathan]

Todd Walker had a pretty serious hype train if I recall.

[HitInAPinch]

Wow, Eddie Bane.  Haven't heard that name in a long time.  He really got treated like crap.  Other names?  Willie Banks and Adam Johnson are the biggest pitcher names I can think of.  There was also the mishandling of Pete Redfern.  Maybe I got the wrong pitcher there.  Maybe Brad Havens.  Anyway, back to back starts against Detroit, who were killing teams at that point.  Dave McCarthy was another one of those players who you see the first time and think "this guy isn't gonna last long"  and ends up with and 11year career.  With 7 teams. 

[USAFChief]

Yep. Eddie Bane would be my choice for most anticipated debut.

 

Also, his debut on 7/4/73 might have been his best game as a Twin!

And I was there to witness it.

 

Sort of. We were so far up and far away it coulda been anyone on the mound.