Die Hard losing faith

[Mike Frasier Law]

I've been notorious for wearing rose colored glasses when it comes to my favorite team. I got fed up with Gardy's decisions (and nicknames) but loved him until he was fired. I always find myself defending Terry Ryan and why the Twins will probably be better than everyone expects next year. But I just went through a crisis of faith.

 

It began with the signing of Torii. At least, that was the beginning of this crisis. I looked at the 2014 Twins and thought: we scored lots of runs. All we need to do is prevent more runs. Pitching could seriously improve, but the easiest and most obvious improvement is in outfield defense.

 

I know, I know, no one loves defensive metrics. But when you have an outfield defense ranked so poorly AND you have an entire pitching staff with a huge differential between ERA and xFIP (5.06 v. 4.08 for starters), there's probably something there. So what does Terry do? Buys a decent bat who was a worse RF than Arcia last year, with no reason to think he's going to get any better.

 

So then I read Terry's reasoning: http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/2014/12/04/twinsights-terry-ryan-defensive-metrics-twins-ignore/

 

He says he watched Torii play 7 games and his defense was at least adequate. Is that really how he made this decision? He then says it probably didn't affect our pitching that much.

 

ARGH

 

And now we're looking for relivers, like Neshek, and for some 2nd or 3rd tier starters.

 

So, I know I'm not the only one to have this crisis of faith in the Twins front office. Am I the last?

[gunnarthor]

Was this thread created by the mods to catch trolling, fighting and abusive language between members?  

[JB_Iowa]

Welcome to the dark side,  (Some days darker than others.) 

[Craig Arko]

There's always the Flying Baseball Spaghetti Monster.

[Craig Arko]

There's always the Flying Baseball Spaghetti Monster.

Although he tends to favor the Pirates.

[Poli_Crandall]

Die-hard Definition: a person who strongly opposes change or who continues to support something in spite of opposition.

 

I Think the only die hards is TR himself

[LJHoes]

Baseball is a game. It might feel like more, but it's just not. If your local team is causing you angst, just step away. 

[Brandon]

May be you should compare Hunter to what was actually available on the market instead of what you wanted in an OF.  That alone will make you feel better about signing Hunter.  There isn't much out there in fact trades are likely to occur cause there are so few bats left on the market.

 

Neshek is a good reliever.  I hope we get him.

 

Our offense is such that we really nee a solid starter who can pitch league average ERA and 200 innings and we will compete. 

 

I don't think Terry Ryan is bad in any way shape or form.  last season we wanted TR to sign Drew at SS.  Not signing him worked out in so many ways.  Escobar and Santana both established themselves as good Major leaguers and the draft pick we would have given up turned out to be Burdi who is on pace to be up late next year as a dominate set up man. 

[MWLfanV2]

_{Ah, you are being to rough on yourself. It is not the signing of Tori you should be having a mid life meltdown about, really what is the worst that can happen. He can't cover the gap in right center and Aaron Hicks has to spend a lot of time on the warning track, if Torii can get to the ball he will catch it and take the correct short route to the fly ball. It is Left field you should have nightmares about, think about all that space for Oswaldo Arcia to take his Willie Norwood model glove to run around like a drunk man making crop circles his Dodge ram in a Iowa Cornfield in. TR may have watched Torii for only 7 games and made that decision, but he watched Oswaldo all season long and made this decision! I love Oswaldo's bat, always have since saw him for a quick spring in Beloit. But he was hurt and could only play his natural position,DH.}

 

_{But my faith says Miracles happen, sports of all places have a history of them. the 69 Mets, the 1980 Olymic team, Nick Punto's career. So just keep the faith my brother, someday you maybe rewarded. Besides if being a baseball fan was supposed to be easy we would all be Yankee fans.}

[ashbury]

Was this thread created by the mods to catch trolling, fighting and abusive language between members?  

No, but criticizing the existence of someone's thread within the thread itself is mentioned in the TD Comment Policy.

[TheLeviathan]

Although he tends to favor the Pirates.

 

Only recently, prior to that he was primarily concerned with making Curt Schilling say dumb things.

[gil4]

_{It is Left field you should have nightmares about, think about all that space for Oswaldo Arcia to take his Willie Norwood model glove to run around like a drunk man making crop circles his Dodge ram in a Iowa Cornfield in. TR may have watched Torii for only 7 games and made that decision, but he watched Oswaldo all season long and made this decision! I love Oswaldo's bat, always have since saw him for a quick spring in Beloit. But he was hurt and could only play his natural position,DH.}

 

Willie Norwood and crop circles in the same sentence, and the scary thing is I can remember quite a few fly balls to RF this year that make me think, "Yeah, I know exactly wehat you're talking about." 

 

I've been having trouble posting with IE, but your post prompted me to finally download Firefox so I can participate again.

[Circus Boy]

OK, Mr. Law, you'll have to die hard in 2015, and die harder in the sequel.

[Champuckett]

I'm ultimately never going to give up on this team, no matter how bad this team is, how poorly decisions are made in the front office, how low the attendance gets, how lousy Mauer's season is going, or how expensive the tickets at Target Field get.  I want to make sure people know before you read any of this, that I do care a heck of a lot for this team, and always will.

 

With that said, I understand what the op is going through, and it first began for me after that great 2006 season.  We floundered the very next season and let go of our arguably two best stars, a middle of his prime Torii Hunter and the best pitcher in the game, Johan Santana.  This started the lack of faith I had because I didn't know where this team was headed and things were beginning to change, although I was still hopeful.

 

Then you got to the 2008 and 2009 seasons where we basically just crawled our way to a potential playoff spots, barely making making it in in a game 163, and losing the other game 163.  With zero adequate replacements for an ace pitcher or a team leader with Torii, it was starting to show even though we had the rest of our core in there, we were not competing at the same level as we did for the first half of the decade.  What the heck happened?  I began to worry about the front office decision making at this point as TR stepped down and Bill Smith had entered.  The team felt different than it had in the past, and we would truly know the consequences of the decision making that had been done for the team in just a few years later.  Does anyone remember at one point we had a rotation of Santana, Liriano, and Radke?  Have we had anything even remotely comparable since?

 

2010 came and there was hope, as the front office went all out and spent a ton on free agents and gave us a great shot that year, then let them go the following year, a few of them in outrageous trades.  It was at this point I began to have doubts in Gardy for the first time, and of course, increased doubts with the front office, although I for a few years did try hard to dismiss them.  But as each 90 loss season went by, and virtually nothing changed, in neither the front office, the coaching department, or the quality of players acquired, it just piled onto everything before it.  As I began to notice that player after player would leave this team or be traded for reasons like "we need speed" or "we need people following the Twins Way" every time these questions were asked either to Gardy or the front office, I began to lose faith in the system as a whole.

 

Now we are at the present, and just like the op mentioned, there are things piling up that are worrying with this front office.  Hunter may pan out and help mentor a young squad, Molitor may be the best coach we have had since TK, or we may sign some amazing free agent starting pitching, but the current feeling is, we are in a tough spot and will remain there, for quite some time.  This team is awesome, always will be, but the current system is not.  It leaves skepticism and doubt and I hope we can escape from this terrible streak of 90 loss seasons soon.  If what the front office has done in the last 4 years is any indication, it feels like it may be later, rather than sooner before we get some true positive change.

[Mike Sixel]

I am close to out. Can't see listening to many games next year. Too many other things to do than listen to a bad MLB team.

[Squirrel]

Like last year, the games will be on ... in the background ... but they'll be on.  And they'll be turned off when the score becomes lopsided.  That's about all I can manage at this point.  And when they come to town, I'll decide then whether or not I'll put my money into it.  Part of being fans is enduring the ups and downs ... we've had some pretty high peaks and some exceptional valleys.  The earliest games I remember were in '65 ... so I've experienced some pretty exceptional ups and downs.  Good thing I like the roller coaster.  It's frustrating, especially when we have thoughts and ideas that seem better than the decisions that are being made.  But I just can't get too down or 'pulling-my-hair-out' frustrated about it all.  I still love baseball, and I still love the Twins, and I'll keep on watching, even when it hurts.  The decisions are not mine to make and it's just hard for me to get worked up about something so out of my control.  Yes, I occasionally yell at the TV and curse at the FO, but then I move on, because it's out of my control.  It's also just a game.  One I love and enjoy, but it's just a game.  There are truly more important things in life.  I guess that's how I view it and how I handle the valleys.  Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.  Remember the good times when the bad gets overwhelming.  But lose faith?  Hmmm ... not sure I quite go that far because I still hope, but with perspective.

[dbminn]

Twins are rebuilding from a farm system full of serious prospects. We will see another six to eight of them in the next year and a half. It would be inane to trade for a rent-a-pitcher like Samardzija or sign a gold plated free agent like 31 year-old Jon Lester when they aren't going to compete this year. It would be even worse to sign someone like Masterson, who is going to get overpaid for too many years.

 

Yes, the Twins need to pursue a defensive centerfielder this year. I'd be happy if they could put together a package of prospects for a young pitcher like Tyson Ross. Otherwise, I'm going to enjoy watching the prospects start their major league careers.

[nicksaviking]

I survived with the team during the lean years of 1993-2000 which saw lots of losing, a strike and a threat of contraction. 

 

I'm pretty sure I can weather the current tsunami of sadness.

 

My son is four and when sports appear on the TV instead of cartoons he thinks it's the end of the world.  I'll complain and critique in the meantime, but ultimately, the team needs to be good when he finally starts to take notice, so they have a couple years before the losing impacts my long term goals to perpetuate the sport within my family.

[Mike Frasier Law]

Twins are rebuilding from a farm system full of serious prospects. We will see another six to eight of them in the next year and a half. It would be inane to trade for a rent-a-pitcher like Samardzija or sign a gold plated free agent like 31 year-old Jon Lester when they aren't going to compete this year. It would be even worse to sign someone like Masterson, who is going to get overpaid for too many years.

 

Yes, the Twins need to pursue a defensive centerfielder this year. I'd be happy if they could put together a package of prospects for a young pitcher like Tyson Ross. Otherwise, I'm going to enjoy watching the prospects start their major league careers.

 

I will watch and listen to the Twins in 2015. I didn't renew my 20 game season ticket package, and that was only partly because of the bad baseball on the field. I wanted to pick and choose which games I go to - and I want to be there for some spectacular debuts in 2015.

 

I'm never going to stop loving my Twins. I've just lost the ability to convince myself that we are among the smarter teams in baseball.

[Squirrel]

I'm pretty sure I can weather the current tsunami of sadness.

That's a good turn of phrase.  I'm going to use that somewhere, somehow.

[twinscowboysbulls]

Did Bruce Willis give up?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Mike, I share your frustration... But in the end, there's a good chance the Hunter contract isn't an awful one. Could the Twins have done better? I certainly think so but ultimately, it's a one year deal so... meh.

 

For this team to meaningfully improve, help needs to come from the pitching staff and the farm. As-is, I think the pitching staff has a shot to improve over 2014 if Nolasco rebounds (which he should)... The flip side of that coin is that Hughes could regress.

 

I'm torn on signing a free agent pitcher. At some point, the kids need to play. Is this the year to do it? Sure... I can go with that plan but it would have been nice to see Meyer get his feet wet last season so we have a better idea of who he is.

 

On the other hand, it sure wouldn't hurt to go find someone who has a legitimate shot of being a #2 or better pitcher.

 

Here's my order of preference:

 

1. Sign a truly good pitcher, even if he's an arm with question marks. Go for upside and rely on the farm if the arm fails. That could be Brett Anderson, it could be James Shields, or it could be a trade for Cole Hamels (not crazy about the latter but whatever).

2. Do nothing. Let the kids play.

3. Sign another junkballer/no-strikeout/frustrating pitcher and take innings from someone with real potential.

 

I'm pretty okay with the first two. I'll be &*^%ing furious if the third happens.

[Mike Sixel]

Frankly, I am generally losing interest in sports. I have come to the conclusion it just doesn't matter all that much of one team wins or not.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Did Bruce Willis give up?

 

No but the sequels are getting worse. 

[laloesch]

Mike, I share your frustration... But in the end, there's a good chance the Hunter contract isn't an awful one. Could the Twins have done better? I certainly think so but ultimately, it's a one year deal so... meh.

 

For this team to meaningfully improve, help needs to come from the pitching staff and the farm. As-is, I think the pitching staff has a shot to improve over 2014 if Nolasco rebounds (which he should)... The flip side of that coin is that Hughes could regress.

 

I'm torn on signing a free agent pitcher. At some point, the kids need to play. Is this the year to do it? Sure... I can go with that plan but it would have been nice to see Meyer get his feet wet last season so we have a better idea of who he is.

 

On the other hand, it sure wouldn't hurt to go find someone who has a legitimate shot of being a #2 or better pitcher.

 

Here's my order of preference:

 

1. Sign a truly good pitcher, even if he's an arm with question marks. Go for upside and rely on the farm if the arm fails. That could be Brett Anderson, it could be James Shields, or it could be a trade for Cole Hamels (not crazy about the latter but whatever).

2. Do nothing. Let the kids play.

3. Sign another junkballer/no-strikeout/frustrating pitcher and take innings from someone with real potential.

 

I'm pretty okay with the first two. I'll be &*^%ing furious if the third happens.

 

 

Ideally I would say #1 as well. 

 

We need to set our sights on an ace quality starter like Jon Lester who should have been acquired in the 2007 botched Santana trade.  If the Twins hadn't fumbled and asked for BOTH Ellsbury AND Lester in that deal we would have gotten Lester, Masterson, Lowrie and Crisp which would have been a fantastic deal.  

 

At this point it's water under the bridge, but the Twins still need another strong starter to pair with Hughes and then we can fill out the rest of the rotation with internal candidates (May, Meyer, Berrios and Gibson).  I am omitting Nolasco as I feel he was a foolish desperation signing, but unfortunately we are stuck with him for another 3 years. 

 

If we can't do #1 then I want the Twins to do absolutely NOTHING or #2.  Let the kids play (May, Meyer, Vargas, Santana, Rosario, Sano, Polanco and eventually Buxton) and see what happens.  Sure it will probably involve A LOT of losing, but we've already had 4 years of this and the light at the end of the tunnel is by passing the torch to the youngster instead of washed up veterans and has beens.

 

Agree on #3.  I will be genuinely ticked off if the Twins insist on signing a junkballer which will push May and Meyer back down to AAA for one or two more seasons.  Why Ryan would do this is beyond me.  Competition is good, but restricting the growth of prized starters in AAA makes absolutely NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!       

[amjgt]

While it's always a little discouraging to see a divisional foe get better while we do relatively little to improve our 90 loss team. When that team is Chicago, I don't get too bent out of shape. It highlights the fact that we aren't doing anything, but by no means do I think that the Twins have the financial options that the Sox do. 

 

It's when teams like Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Kansas City start flashing money around to fill areas of need that I start to get truly unhappy with the way the Twins continue to do things.

 

There is no reason we shouldn't be able to outspend those franchises. NONE. Outspending doesn't always have to mean free agency either. You can give up prospects with the idea that will outspend in other ways to make up for those lost prospects. 

[Craig Arko]

Frankly, I am generally losing interest in sports. I have come to the conclusion it just doesn't matter all that much of one team wins or not.