What Light Does Diamondbacks Deal Shed on the Minnesota Twins?

This can’t be true. We all know from posters on this site that the Twins are just scraping by. I mean that has to be correct right?

What Arizona has that the Twins do not is a WS appearance. They might not get back to a 3 million attendance, but a bump up to 2.5 million will cover quite a bit of the expense. Grichuck and Pedeson should bring the same level of excitement to Arizona that retaining Farmer and signing Santana does to Minnesota. 

Yet another article whining about spending.  Baseball is here.  Can we move on!

Milwaukee is more of a comparison due to similarly minded populations.

Agree with MLR.

32 sleeps til opening day.

The Twins, as they're currently constructed, are intriguing.

I plan to sit back and take it in.

The Dbacks owner is just planting seeds. That stadium is nice and they wont get a new one for a decade.  The Yotes are next in line for a new rink in AZ. 
if we are comparing apples to apples. No Dbacks player is getting C4 type $$$ yet so thats the biggest payroll difference. If you remove the $14M dead money going to bumgarner then the Dbacks payroll is comparable to the twins right to the dime.

39 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Yet another article whining about spending.  Baseball is here.  Can we move on!

Guy who literally posts spreadsheets defending the Pohlads suddenly wants to "move on".  Can't make it up. 

I don't blame you though, the Dbacks prove false your thesis that all teams do and must act the way the Pohlads have acted this offseason.  They don't, it's a decision.  The Dbacks had postseason success last year and decided to build on it, even with TV uncertainty.  Smart move.  

45 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Yet another article whining about spending.  Baseball is here.  Can we move on!

I have a solution for you. Don’t read them. I would like all the relevant information I can get on this topic. 

Ted, we love your work, but this payroll stuff is just getting so old.

Please, please would someone, anyone, show the actual data proving that a) there are major league owners consistently losing money on an annual operating basis and b) the Twins earn excessive operating margins/profits vis-a-vis the rest of the major league franchises.  The reality is more than likely that the data would show the opposite. 

Seriously, would someone please prove just how penurious the Twins actually are relative to their annual operating profits and the other owners. I have no interest to carry any water for the Pohlads (yes, they are extremely wealthy and many TDers wish they would just spend willy nilly without a care in the world), but, until we see the actual data, could we just focus on enjoying the show and lay off the divisiveness?

Seriously for all the no more payroll discussions folks. Don’t read them. I want the info. You don’t get to decide what content I receive. 

Started to read this piece thinking it would contain some information on what revenue the Twins may have in 2025.  My mistake as it was the 999th bashing of management for not spending another $xx.  
 

Boo, Boo, Boo!

I think this obsession with payroll is overblown when the Twins have so many good, younger and thus less expensive players who, if healthy and productive, can take the team all the way to October. We have an ace to pitch opening day, an elite closer, a solid rotation and relief staff, and a batting order than can do major damage. If Buxton and Kepler (a big 'if,' admittedly) and a few others can stay healthy and live up to their best work, like a novelist writing a bestseller after a clunker, I see this season keeping all of us on the edge of our stadium seats with pizazz and kaboom. Play ball! I'm optimistic.  (That said, I have Hulu, not DirectTV, and no way, apparently, to stream games, so I might opt out of being the superfan I usually consider myself to be.)

Why does this have to be either/or? There should be a way to deliver games to people who have streaming AND people who have cable. There should even be some games available for people who only have an antenna. Stop negotiating "exclusive" rights that are certain to shrink the potential audience.

51 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Ted, we love your work, but this payroll stuff is just getting so old.

Please, please would someone, anyone, show the actual data proving that a) there are major league owners consistently losing money on an annual operating basis and b) the Twins earn excessive operating margins/profits vis-a-vis the rest of the major league franchises.  The reality is more than likely that the data would show the opposite. 

Seriously, would someone please prove just how penurious the Twins actually are relative to their annual operating profits and the other owners. I have no interest to carry any water for the Pohlads (yes, they are extremely wealthy and many TDers wish they would just spend willy nilly without a care in the world), but, until we see the actual data, could we just focus on enjoying the show and lay off the divisiveness?

Cohen spent on the Mets and dialed it back to 255m with 20% of it being dead money this year. After this year they have 8 free agents. Last year the Padres received permission to borrow against the team. Their payroll is also down this year.. 

I should add, No, I don’t think anyone can show that an owner will pay out of pocket for a team. There are owners who also own part of the RSNs as a way to shield profits. 

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Are there a lot of fans asking for the Twins to "consistently lose money?" I don't see much of that. I do see a whole lot of fans suggesting making a long-term investment in the team coming off its first playoff win in 2 decades with its fan base the most excited its been in the same time frame as opposed to immediately throwing water on its own consumer's excitement. And there are absolutely teams that make that decision. Ted is suggesting here that the DBacks are making that very choice. 

Are there fans who scream "cheap Pohlads" every season no matter what? Of course. But this offseason is very different. They had the choice to sacrifice a little financially to dramatically grow their reach with the fanbase. I believe it was Gleeman who said they're in basically 1/4 of households in their viewing area. They chased short-term money over the chance to significantly increase their reach at the perfect time with some actual success last year. Everything came together as they got out from the TV deal they themselves have complained about for years while they were hitting an exciting point in their team development and they chose to go back to the same terrible TV situation while delivering terrible messaging and hurting their connection to their fan base. 

The DBacks are showing that some teams do take short-term financial hits to improve their long-term outlook. I don't think it's too crazy that fans suggest the Pohlads could make the same decision.

First, there are lots of TDers who think that the Pohlads are so wealthy that their only concern should be to deliver a WS win to the community.  And no matter how much they spend, it will never be enough. Lots. 

Second, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You and others don’t seem too excited about this season. Others, including myself, are incredibly excited about the team that has been put together. And way more excited than what we put together at the start of last season - even though last year’s payroll was higher.

Third, who says the Twins are done spending? Maybe they have a bit in their pockets to spend at the deadline to try to get us over the top.

Fourth, no one on this site - including yourself - has any idea how much the Twins have made or lost over the years.  Again, I posit that the Twins probably run the “business” on an annual basis to eke out a little bit of profit with a few years in the red and a few more in the black. Moreover, I posit that relative to the other franchises in the league, the Twins earn lower margins than the vast majority of them. Please, some one prove that wrong so I can jump on the “Pohlads are cheap”  bandwagon.

Fifth, the Twins have made long-term investments. Lots of them (Correa, Buxton, Lopez) with lots more on the way (with many approaching arbitrations and extensions on the way). Patience my friend, the investments are not only there, but are also in the plan.

At the moment, I’ll take the team the Twins have pulled together this season as better and more exciting than last year’s with plenty of great entertainment on the way.  And I’ll take the over on the Twins vs. the DBacks and any other small - mid market franchise this season.

Would another “big” name or two (with a big contract) have been nice? Yeah, sure.   I know you’d prefer to have kept Polanco.  But this roster is solid, exciting and should be more than competitive.  

27 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

First, there are lots of TDers who think that the Pohlads are so wealthy that their only concern should be to deliver a WS win to the community.  And no matter how much they spend, it will never be enough. Lots. 

Second, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You and others don’t seem too excited about this season. Others, including myself, are incredibly excited about the team that has been put together. And way more excited than what we put together at the start of last season - even though last year’s payroll was higher.

Third, who says the Twins are done spending? Maybe they have a bit in their pockets to spend at the deadline to try to get us over the top.

Fourth, no one on this site - including yourself - has any idea how much the Twins have made or lost over the years.  Again, I posit that the Twins probably run the “business” on an annual basis to eke out a little bit of profit with a few years in the red and a few more in the black. Moreover, I posit that relative to the other franchises in the league, the Twins earn lower margins than the vast majority of them. Please, some one prove that wrong so I can jump on the “Pohlads are cheap”  bandwagon.

Fifth, the Twins have made long-term investments. Lots of them (Correa, Buxton, Lopez) with lots more on the way (with many approaching arbitrations and extensions on the way). Patience my friend, the investments are not only there, but are also in the plan.

At the moment, I’ll take the team the Twins have pulled together this season as better and more exciting than last year’s with plenty of great entertainment on the way.  And I’ll take the over on the Twins vs. the DBacks and any other small - mid market franchise this season.

Would another “big” name or two (with a big contract) have been nice? Yeah, sure.   I know you’d prefer to have kept Polanco.  But this roster is solid, exciting and should be more than competitive.  

I agree that nobody knows what the Twins profit margin is including you. Yet you posit the notion that it’s a break even operation. You ask for people to prove the Twins are raking in money or stop complaining. That cuts both ways - you could be asked to prove the aren’t making any money and that their profit margin is lower than other clubs but you can’t prove that either. 

41 minutes ago, Linus said:

I agree that nobody knows what the Twins profit margin is including you. Yet you posit the notion that it’s a break even operation. You ask for people to prove the Twins are raking in money or stop complaining. That cuts both ways - you could be asked to prove the aren’t making any money and that their profit margin is lower than other clubs but you can’t prove that either. 

First, I said I suspect that the team is run more or less to earn a small profit give or take.

Second, I agree.  I do not know.  But I point to the Forbes analysis that someone posted supporting that contention. Second, the level of estimated revenues and costs would seem to support the ideas, particularly how payroll fluctuates with revenues.  Third, I personally could understand running the team not to lose money, but I’m having a hard time really thinking the Pohlads are looking to take huge cash out of this business of theirs. Fourth, operating expenses, not just payroll, go up every year.  Let’s just be a bit kind - the Twins are a pretty well run organization doing a lot of things the right way.  And the fam experience at Target Field is pretty much top notch across the board.

So, until proven otherwise, I will just stick with my contention that the team is run with a target small margin and the Twins are at the lower end of that spectrum.  You are free to keep banging the drum about how cheap the Pohlads are. 

19 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

1. I acknowledged there were those fans. So we agree. But that's not what many of the complaints are on this site right now so it shouldn't just be a blanket statement about fans complaining about spending.

2. I've never said I'm not excited about the season. I can both believe they're shooting themselves in the foot and have a solid team. I don't think their team is better now than when they lost to the Astros, and that's what I care about. And an extra 10-20 mil in spending would help that.

3. Pohlad himself said they're done spending in any meaningful way. Could they add another $5 mil? Sure. That doesn't impress me. And waiting until the deadline to get into massive bidding wars with other teams isn't some magic bullet that inspires me. With the expanded playoffs there's far fewer sellers and far more buyers now than there used to be. It's not a store. They can't just wait and then go pick out the piece they want at the deadline.

4. I haven't said I do know what they're making. I know they're not losing money, though. Really not losing money during all the 90+ loss seasons they've produced over the last 20 years. And, again, me and plenty others aren't claiming that. We are saying their desire to look short-term hurts them in the long-term. St Peter was out last offseason questioning fans and why they didn't show up to support a team that lost the division by 14 games a season after they lost the division by 20 games. Then when the fanbase is actually excited they choose to kneecap themselves and will probably be super confused as to why the fans are mad again. I'm not even screaming "cheap Pohlads," I'm screaming "short-sighted Pohlads!"

5. They "invested" in Buxton at 1/2 the market rate. No, they don't get credit for that. They "invested" in Correa after he fell into their lap at a shortened, and discounted, rate for the 2nd straight offseason. They get 1/2 credit for that. Lopez is a nice deal for sure. When they actually make extensions I'll give them credit for them. They don't get credit for things they haven't yet done.

I'm glad you're excited and have high hopes. Not telling you, or anyone else, not to feel that way. I see a team that's in the same general win range as last year which should lead to another division title. I don't see them any closer to the World Series. Is Baltimore mid-market? Cuz I'll take them over the Twins in a heartbeat (no, I'm not going to go cheer for them so I hope nobody says that. I can cheer for the Twins and still acknowledge Baltimore is younger and better than the Twins on paper). I would prefer Polanco, but I agree this is a solid roster. My problem is the Twins were handed the opportunity to make this roster more than "solid" while expanding their fanbase and they chose a short-term payday. It's their business and they can do what they want. But they better not be confused when the attendance still doesn't reach their projections after the decisions they've made.

So making decent deals for players is not investing?  Is your point that to be considered an “investment” the number has to be higher or needs to be an overpay?  So if we had paid more for Buxton or Correa, that would count as full credit instead of 1/2? That’s ridiculous.  A dollar is a dollar.  Wait until the arbitrations and extensions kick in starting next season - then we will have the ability to keep our talent, instead of wasting it on the one and done types. I’d argue that the team is actually making a big investment in their young talent this year by clearing the way to develop them, and, yes, pay them in the future. 

47 minutes ago, Linus said:

Since you are tiring of these articles I assume you won’t be reading or commenting on them. 

Nah, someone needs to keeping pointing out how ludicrous it is for some of my fellow DNers to keep bashing the Pohlads year in and year out for how cheap they purportedly are.   👍

19 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

First, I said I suspect that the team is run more or less to earn a small profit give or take.

Second, I agree.  I do not know.  But I point to the Forbes analysis that someone posted supporting that contention. Second, the level of estimated revenues and costs would seem to support the ideas, particularly how payroll fluctuates with revenues.  Third, I personally could understand running the team not to lose money, but I’m having a hard time really thinking the Pohlads are looking to take huge cash out of this business of theirs. Fourth, operating expenses, not just payroll, go up every year.  Let’s just be a bit kind - the Twins are a pretty well run organization doing a lot of things the right way.  And the fam experience at Target Field is pretty much top notch across the board.

So, until proven otherwise, I will just stick with my contention that the team is run with a target small margin and the Twins are at the lower end of that spectrum.  You are free to keep banging the drum about how cheap the Pohlads are. 

Cool. I have never once used the “cheap Pohlads”. Not once in a decade of posting. I simply think this off season has been a big mistake on their part. That includes not investing in their product at an opportune time and the general disaster their public relations have been.  You feel differently and that is cool by me. 

4 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Nah, someone needs to keeping pointing out how ludicrous it is for some of my fellow DNers to keep bashing the Pohlads year in and year out for how cheap they purportedly are.   👍

Actually I think the business side of the club is very interesting and part of being a fan for me anyway. 

For all those complaining about the constant griping about spending. Here's what Twins mgt has done for the team and it's fan base. Announced payroll cuts due to the loss of TV revenue.  Then turn around a sign a tv deal for less money. It wasn't the best or only deal perhaps I don't know but it was the easiest. If it was the only option, why? Closed upper deck for early part of the season. To cut costs? Or because they can't sell enough tickets to warrant it staying open. I personally think the Twins have a huge PR problem. Why can't the Twins avg well over 2 million yearly like let's just say the Brewers do. It's cold there in April too. When the perception is you get what we give you and you better like it, it tends to alienate the paying public. And once you've lost them it's hard to get them back. Yeah it gets old. But so does complaining about the high K rate or Rocco is terrible or the bullpen. No one's complaining as much about the pen so far because it looks like they made moves to improve it. The same will happen with spending if they improve their public image. Right now that's not so good.