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  • Are Long Starts Coming for the Twins?


    Ted Schwerzler

    The Minnesota Twins saw a franchise record of pitchers used last season, and 14 players took the ball to start a game. Despite leading the AL Central division for much of the year, injuries ravaged the group, and ineffectiveness rose. Now with depth, are starters set to go longer for Minnesota?

    Image courtesy of Ken Blaze-USA TODAY Sports

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    First and foremost, last season saw a trend of starters going fewer innings take shape across all of baseball. Through the first two months, starting pitchers averaged just over 4 2/3 innings per start. It made a good amount of sense, with relievers being more specialized than ever and starters lacking when a lineup rolls over. For Twins fans, the consternation has always been directly with manager Rocco Baldelli.

    No matter how loud it needed to be yelled last year, though, suggesting, short starts weren’t a Twins thing (or a Baldelli thing) didn’t matter.

    With an overhauled rotation, could longer starts become a Twins thing?

    Gone are the days of Chris Archer and Dylan Bundy being ok with a five and dive routine. Neither was effective enough to be penciled in for more last season, and the Twins knew that. Sonny Gray wasn't ever thrilled about an early hook, but injuries have been a concern for him, and he was lumped in with a bad group last year. At times, Joe Ryan's two pitch mix wasn't enough for him to be efficient, and as a whole, the rotation forced the manager's hand. Trying to protect guys like Bailey Ober and Tyler Mahle from further injury, there was just never opportunity for Baldelli to lengthen the leash.

    Opening Day starter Pablo Lopez threw 180 innings last year for the Miami Marlins. That easily would have been the most for Minnesota, and he did that to the tune of a 3.75 ERA. Across all his 32 starts, Lopez went less than five innings just seven times. Sonny Gray has publicly voiced a desire to go deeper in games, and settling in during year two with this staff could help to accommodate that. Tyler Mahle made 19 starts for Cincinnati before being traded last year, and he went under five innings in only five of them, three of which came during the first month.

    If there are starters to be concerned about length with in the Twins initial stable, it has to be both Joe Ryan and Kenta Maeda. A year ago, Ryan put together a solid rookie campaign, which was highly rooted in dominance against cellar-dwellers. He struggled when facing a lineup more than twice, and he was beat around a bit by lineups of high-caliber opponents. Being able to show a higher level of consistency could lengthen his leash.

    Regarding Maeda, plenty will depend on how effectively he can return from Tommy John surgery. He is well beyond the normal recovery period and has been stretched out plenty this spring. The numbers and performance haven’t been great, but there is a lot to like if he can settle back into where he was during the 2020 season. Maeda never went under five innings during any of the 11 starts that year, and he completed five innings during two-thirds of his 2021 outings.

    Ultimately the length of a start is determined by game flow, but for the Twins, it has largely been reactionary due to the quality of performance. Baldelli would certainly appreciate not having to rely on Jhoan Duran, Jorge Lopez, or Griffin Jax every single night. He can avoid doing that if his starting rotation performs at a high level and presents an opportunity to continue longer in a game.

    I don’t think we’ll suddenly see the Twins returning a Bert Blyleven-like workload this year for the rotation. Still, guys working into the sixth and seventh inning have a much more realistic possibility of happening. This is unquestionably Minnesota’s best rotation in years, and on no night should it be assumed a guy will go out and just get blown up.

    Baldelli may have preferred to yank starters early out of principle, but the much more likely reality is that performance-dictated decisions. We’ll now have a case study opportunity to find out how much truth there is to good starters going longer.

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    This has become the favorite red herring of Twins fans.  There was a perfect storm of activity last year that led to short starters not just in MN but across the league.  Initially, the short spring training after the lockout led to “extended spring training” of a sort to start the season for everyone.  The major issue for the Twins as the season went on was that they didn’t have very good starting pitchers and that they would tend to implode after twice through the lineup or would be inefficient enough that the pitch count would escalate through five innings.  

    I don’t think that we are likely to ever go back to a bunch of complete games and/or games where we see starter and then closer.  However, I think this year’s group has a good shot to at least start that third time through the lineup.  Lopez proved he could do that last season, as did Mahle (although injury is a concern, if we ever figure out what the problem really was/is).  Joe Ryan should be another year older and another year wiser.  Sonny Gray has an expressed frustration with the early hook.  That leaves post-Tommy John Kenta Maeda as the only one of the rotation likely to get the early hook.  Another poster somewhere pointed out that having the starters go one more inning is indeed a lot, and a lot more than it seems like, as that leads to 162 inning less in bullpen workload.  Let’s hope for an out or two extra from everyone and a successful season for the Twins.

     

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    If Gray has 88 pitches going into the 8th inning with a 5-1 lead......he will keep pitching.....just like he did last year.  If he is sitting on 94 pitches after 5 innings, the leash will be much shorter.  If he is sitting at 65 pitches with one out in the 5th with guys on 2nd and 3rd with a 4-4 tie....then he will get yanked.  Every major league manager would agree with the above information. None of this has really changed....in the last 20 years!  Archer was certainly fine with only going 4 innings....he was just happy to have a contract.  Archer knew his ERA would suffer even more if he started facing the same hitter for the 3rd time.  History says they ALL suffer once they start facing the same hitter for the 3rd time......

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    The Twins are in a far better place with their rotation of starting pitchers this season and I believe in this bullpen more than the guys from last year. Some of that is due to new pitchers, but in other cases it is a result of gaining some experience and going through a regular offseason and spring routine. The pitching will be much improved.

    A small of the length for the starting staff may depend on the bats. Hopefully the Twins hitters are tougher this year and give their arms some room. The improved defense and depth will create an out or two per game, which also adds up over the long schedule.

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    My opinion is...nothing would please the general fan base, and many people that frequent this great website, more than our starters pitching well enough to go deeper in games. No one wants to see starters pulled after 3, 4, or 5 innings. It looks like we may finally have the pitchers to do that. Time will tell. 

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    IMO 6 innings should be the expected norm. Any more than that is a bonus. I don't care if its 1 out with a runner on in the 5th and the top of the order coming to bat. Let the starters get thru it, have confidence and let them build confidence. How can anybody prove to be worthy if not given a chance? If they prove they can't do the job several times move on. Either move to the pen, send down to the minors or release them.

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    My ask for this year is that there is no predetermined "yank point", the Twins go in to starts expecting long starts out of their starters, and the manager evaluates if/when to pull starters based on a combination of how the pitcher is doing, the game situation, the opponents, the status of the bullpen, and finally data on both the starter and the potential reliever that would have to replace the starter.  

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    53 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

    My ask for this year is that there is no predetermined "yank point", the Twins go in to starts expecting long starts out of their starters, and the manager evaluates if/when to pull starters based on a combination of how the pitcher is doing, the game situation, the opponents, the status of the bullpen, and finally data on both the starter and the potential reliever that would have to replace the starter.  

    There wasn't a predetermined "yank point" last year either. Each pitcher was evaluated based on their track record, their health, the game situation, their effectiveness, the pitch count, who was coming up, what the status of the bullpen was, etc. the fact that our starters got yanked after 5ish inning last season had a lot more to do with their performance than any pre-determined yank point. I'm expect similar evaluations to take place this season, but with a better starting rotation, the odds of them pitching more innings is higher.

    Gray gets cited all the time about being unhappy for getting pulled "early", but dude only made 24 starts last season because of various injuries and he's also said that he never got his legs under him after the fast spring training. So his lower inning totals might have something to do with protecting the pitcher from himself too. Dude can pitch, but he's also 10 years in and only thrown 150 innings in a MLB season 4 times, and made 30+ starts 4 times. He's not exactly the poster child for durability.

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    2 hours ago, CRF said:

    My opinion is...nothing would please the general fan base, and many people that frequent this great website, more than our starters pitching well enough to go deeper in games. No one wants to see starters pulled after 3, 4, or 5 innings. It looks like we may finally have the pitchers to do that. Time will tell. 

    Fans do not care how many innings a starter goes.  Fans care about wins.  If the Twins thought they could win with 9 pitchers throwing 1 inning every game, they would do that.  People forget that SP going 4 innings last year had the Twins in first place in September.

    Poor Sonny Gray needs to realize that him pitching the 3rd time through the lineup is a nuclear disaster to the tune of a plus 10 ERA.  Numbers show that.  Everyone knows it, including him.  Do what you are being asked to do.

     

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    3 hours ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

    Another poster somewhere pointed out that having the starters go one more inning is indeed a lot, and a lot more than it seems like, as that leads to 162 inning less in bullpen workload.

    Um, 162 innings doesn't account for the times one less inning from the starter turns out to mean trailing in the 9th on the road instead of being tied or ahead.

    In those cases it doesn't tax the bullpen at all.

     

    (i'll leave the change in extra inning games as an exercise to the reader, but only because i'm lazy)

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    There should be no problems with Lopez, he's a work horse and he's ready to go. Gray looks more ready to go longer this season. Mahle has been a little inconsistent but my hope is he'll quickly find it and pitch the innings that he's capable of. Last season Ryan pitched the most innings inching out Bundy with Gray & Archer a distant 3 & 4. Like you said Ryan got beat up his 3rd time around the order. A year later I expect he has more stamina, more efficient where he needs to throw fewer pitches where he'll increase his innings/ game.

    Maeda under a SP load for his 1st full season he lasted only 103 innings. After around 1& 1/2 years absent he's rusty but it's more than being rusty. It's coming off TJ, SPs have to deal with control problems. IDK how long it'll take for Maeda to work thru his rustiness & control problems  because of TJ. I'd hope they give him a short leash until then & even then I don't expect him go much more than 2X thru the order.

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    30 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

    There wasn't a predetermined "yank point" last year either. Each pitcher was evaluated based on their track record, their health, the game situation, their effectiveness, the pitch count, who was coming up, what the status of the bullpen was, etc. the fact that our starters got yanked after 5ish inning last season had a lot more to do with their performance than any pre-determined yank point. I'm expect similar evaluations to take place this season, but with a better starting rotation, the odds of them pitching more innings is higher.

    Gray gets cited all the time about being unhappy for getting pulled "early", but dude only made 24 starts last season because of various injuries and he's also said that he never got his legs under him after the fast spring training. So his lower inning totals might have something to do with protecting the pitcher from himself too. Dude can pitch, but he's also 10 years in and only thrown 150 innings in a MLB season 4 times, and made 30+ starts 4 times. He's not exactly the poster child for durability.

    Yes, exactly!

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    3 hours ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

    This has become the favorite red herring of Twins fans.  There was a perfect storm of activity last year that led to short starters not just in MN but across the league.  Initially, the short spring training after the lockout led to “extended spring training” of a sort to start the season for everyone.  The major issue for the Twins as the season went on was that they didn’t have very good starting pitchers and that they would tend to implode after twice through the lineup or would be inefficient enough that the pitch count would escalate through five innings.  

    I don’t think that we are likely to ever go back to a bunch of complete games and/or games where we see starter and then closer.  However, I think this year’s group has a good shot to at least start that third time through the lineup.  Lopez proved he could do that last season, as did Mahle (although injury is a concern, if we ever figure out what the problem really was/is).  Joe Ryan should be another year older and another year wiser.  Sonny Gray has an expressed frustration with the early hook.  That leaves post-Tommy John Kenta Maeda as the only one of the rotation likely to get the early hook.  Another poster somewhere pointed out that having the starters go one more inning is indeed a lot, and a lot more than it seems like, as that leads to 162 inning less in bullpen workload.  Let’s hope for an out or two extra from everyone and a successful season for the Twins.

     

    Along with a bullpen full of guys incapable of throwing more than a single inning per outing, and time missed, short starts undeniably put this team in an awful position. Yes, the length of the average start might've been down across the league, but the Twins were an extreme; I think they ranked like 28th or somewhere close. IMO you don't end up there by accident, so Idk if I'd call the short starts a true distraction. I don't expect a repeat of that ranking for reasons you've listed, but I also don't think we'll see a massive departure from last season's philosophy. The FO is ok with Maeda in the rotation to start and they're insistent on carrying Sands as a long man. An extra out is probably the best case scenario.

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    1 hour ago, sampleSizeOfOne said:

    Um, 162 innings doesn't account for the times one less inning from the starter turns out to mean trailing in the 9th on the road instead of being tied or ahead.

    In those cases it doesn't tax the bullpen at all.

     

    (i'll leave the change in extra inning games as an exercise to the reader, but only because i'm lazy)

    It still comes down to who you think has the best chance at keeping the opposing team at bay in the sixth inning (or 5th or 7th, etc.).  If you think that the fatigued starter, especially if it's Bundy or Archer, has the best shot the third time through the lineup, then leave him in there.  However, if you think that a fresh arm, maybe not even one as good on paper as the starter, has the better chance of success, then that is the way to go.  In a vacuum, assuming that last year's bullpen was less good than last year's starters (not a sure thing), then leaving the starter in was the better play, but there are too many variables for blanket statements like that.  It seems just as likely that that extra inning may have meant being behind by a run instead of ahead by a run, which puts more pressure on the offense. 

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    1 hour ago, KirbyDome89 said:

    Along with a bullpen full of guys incapable of throwing more than a single inning per outing, and time missed, short starts undeniably put this team in an awful position. Yes, the length of the average start might've been down across the league, but the Twins were an extreme; I think they ranked like 28th or somewhere close. IMO you don't end up there by accident, so Idk if I'd call the short starts a true distraction. I don't expect a repeat of that ranking for reasons you've listed, but I also don't think we'll see a massive departure from last season's philosophy. The FO is ok with Maeda in the rotation to start and they're insistent on carrying Sands as a long man. An extra out is probably the best case scenario.

    The Twins were at 4.8 innings per start last year.  The number one team (surprise surprise, they also led in pitches per start at 92) was the Astros at 5.9 innings per start.  Now compare the quality of starting pitcher on the Astros (or the Padres, or . . . . ) with the Twins, and I'm certain we can figure out why.  If the Twins get an extra out per game they are at about 5.1 or 5.2, which was the league average for starters.  Eliminating Bundy and especially Archer will help that situation quite a bit, but you have to ask yourself whether a fatigued starter facing the third time through the lineup is better than a fresh bullpen arm.  The statistics say that the third time through the lineup is a disaster for most starting pitchers.  Being ahead 3 to 2 after five innings is definitely better than being behind 3 to 5 after six.

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    29 minutes ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

    The Twins were at 4.8 innings per start last year.  The number one team (surprise surprise, they also led in pitches per start at 92) was the Astros at 5.9 innings per start.  Now compare the quality of starting pitcher on the Astros (or the Padres, or . . . . ) with the Twins, and I'm certain we can figure out why.  If the Twins get an extra out per game they are at about 5.1 or 5.2, which was the league average for starters.  Eliminating Bundy and especially Archer will help that situation quite a bit, but you have to ask yourself whether a fatigued starter facing the third time through the lineup is better than a fresh bullpen arm.  The statistics say that the third time through the lineup is a disaster for most starting pitchers.  Being ahead 3 to 2 after five innings is definitely better than being behind 3 to 5 after six.

    I think the Twins viewpoint on this is clear, and again, the fact that they're ok with Maeda in the rotation and Sands in the pen as a long man is telling as well. Yes, getting rid of Archer helps. Yes, I expect the Twins to be closer to average than dead last in innings per start. Yes, talent plays a role as well, but I don't think the "quick hooks," or pitch counts, or guys not coming out to start the 6th innings are a thing of the past and I'm not arguing whether or not they should be. 

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    I think pitch count had a lot to do with the short outings. Our pitchers, in general, seemed to start nibbling around the edges of the zone when they've gotten a batter to 0-2, rather than attacking. This results in a lot of 3-2 counts and a lot of foul balls. 80ish pitches going into the 5th inning isn't going to get you very far. Lopez in particular seems to stay much more aggressive on 0-2, resulting in a lot lower pitch count. I hope the rest of the staff follows suit.

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    I just don't understand why people are so worried about this. If healthy, which we all know if a big IF, they're going to be allowed to go 95-105 pitches most times out. How many innings will that be? Hopefully 6-7, even 8. 

    Probably not in the first weeks of the season, but once they get going a bit. If they're healthy... 

    Obviously Maeda may have to work up a bit. They'll be careful with him. 

    They'll certainly be watching Mahle's velocities, I'm sure. 

    Ryan didn't pitch in 2020, pitched quite a bit in 2021 including the weird schedule due to the Olympics, and last year he was out a month with Covid and wasn't the same for weeks after that. 

    I really feel like how they handled things last year was appropriate. It will certainly be different this year.

    I they are healthy. 

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    11 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

    It'll be better but not as much better as fans  expect.

    Yeah, I don't see a huge jump in innings per start. After last year it almost has to get better, but that "third time through the order" syndrome will remain to be a factor for some starters. 

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    18 hours ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

    This has become the favorite red herring of Twins fans.  There was a perfect storm of activity last year that led to short starters not just in MN but across the league.  Initially, the short spring training after the lockout led to “extended spring training” of a sort to start the season for everyone.  The major issue for the Twins as the season went on was that they didn’t have very good starting pitchers and that they would tend to implode after twice through the lineup or would be inefficient enough that the pitch count would escalate through five innings.  

    I don’t think that we are likely to ever go back to a bunch of complete games and/or games where we see starter and then closer.  However, I think this year’s group has a good shot to at least start that third time through the lineup.  Lopez proved he could do that last season, as did Mahle (although injury is a concern, if we ever figure out what the problem really was/is).  Joe Ryan should be another year older and another year wiser.  Sonny Gray has an expressed frustration with the early hook.  That leaves post-Tommy John Kenta Maeda as the only one of the rotation likely to get the early hook.  Another poster somewhere pointed out that having the starters go one more inning is indeed a lot, and a lot more than it seems like, as that leads to 162 inning less in bullpen workload.  Let’s hope for an out or two extra from everyone and a successful season for the Twins.

     

    It’s not a red herring. Only 6 teams including the twins had no one meet the “era title” threshold. (And they’re all picking in the top 8 draft picks)

     

    also the twins had the second fewest batters faced by starters in the league. 

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    15 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

    Fans do not care how many innings a starter goes.  Fans care about wins.  If the Twins thought they could win with 9 pitchers throwing 1 inning every game, they would do that.  People forget that SP going 4 innings last year had the Twins in first place in September.

    Poor Sonny Gray needs to realize that him pitching the 3rd time through the lineup is a nuclear disaster to the tune of a plus 10 ERA.  Numbers show that.  Everyone knows it, including him.  Do what you are being asked to do.

     

    Not sure where you’re getting that number from, Gray’s OPS against went down the 3rd time through the order last year 

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    31 minutes ago, The_Phantom said:

     6 teams including the twins had no one meet the “era title” threshold.

    This does not matter. At all. The ERA title threshold was an arbitrary number (1 inning pitched per team games played) set over 100 years ago. As FDG was saying, it's team wins that matter. A manager's goal in the regular season is to win enough games to qualify for the postseason. Having pitchers throw 162 innings is not anywhere on the priority list.

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    51 minutes ago, The_Phantom said:

    It’s not a red herring. Only 6 teams including the twins had no one meet the “era title” threshold. (And they’re all picking in the top 8 draft picks)

     

    also the twins had the second fewest batters faced by starters in the league. 

    So you’re saying that if last year’s starting pitchers had just pitched more innings, the Twins would have had a better record?  (That is the goal after all.)   I will agree to disagree, but that rotation just wasn’t good enough to warrant that. Except for a few Gray and Ryan starts (and not that many) I would much prefer a fresh arm going out there. I will agree that circumstances on the field should (and I think do) dictate when a starter is done for the day, but the idea that it is an arbitrary decision seems unlikely. Bringing in the bullpen when you are ahead 3-2 at the end of the fifth is preferable to down 5-3 at the end of the sixth. 
     

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    1 hour ago, The_Phantom said:

    Not sure where you’re getting that number from, Gray’s OPS against went down the 3rd time through the order last year 

    I would have to dig to find it, but this was a huge talking point when Gray complained last summer.  The Twins and the Reds before us all kept his starts short because the numbers backed it up.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the OPS was down last year, but we are talking about a very small sample size, 

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    19 hours ago, CRF said:

    My opinion is...nothing would please the general fan base, and many people that frequent this great website, more than our starters pitching well enough to go deeper in games. No one wants to see starters pulled after 3, 4, or 5 innings. It looks like we may finally have the pitchers to do that. Time will tell. 

    I think the thing to keep in mind is that even when there is no intent to have an early hook, pitchers will get pulled for lack of performance. Stated above, Mahle came out 5 of his 19 starts in ‘22 before the 5th. Lopez came out of the game 7 times before the 5th. Both about 25% of starts. If a guy goes 6 1/3 for 3 straight starts & then 4 innings in his 4th start, his average innings are 5.75. League average last year was around 5.4 innings per start…………not easy to get average innings anywhere near back to where they used to be.

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    17 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

    There wasn't a predetermined "yank point" last year either.

    Do we know this for sure though?   Forgive the vague numbers, but last season the Twins had 6 or 7 starts where the starter was pulled in the 5th or earlier with 75 or less pitches after giving up 0 or 1 hit.  If there wasn't a predetermined yank point, with all due respect, the manager should have joined the trainer in the bread line!

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    13 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

    I just don't understand why people are so worried about this. If healthy, which we all know if a big IF, they're going to be allowed to go 95-105 pitches most times out. How many innings will that be? Hopefully 6-7, even 8. 

    It's really more about a philosophical divide. There's a number of people who are particularly agitated about this because they don't like the ways the game of baseball has changed and evolved over the past 20-30 years. Longer starts (along with things like more hit & run plays, stolen bases, bunts, and a focus on hitting for average over hitting for power) are part of what they believe makes baseball "better". Others are less concerned about it.

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