Wishlist Items in the next 40 days

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Sorry I left out a few words only has played more than 81 games once and yes that was 101 which he ended with a good BA(.280) and OBP (.344) but a woeful .404 SLG and a OPS+ of 103, so above average OBP and below average SLG for basically an average year. He is is so dime a dozen they paid him 2 million to be a bench player (He has played well, not taking that away from him)

If he ends up like Solano, none of will be happy, he will be a below average role player going back and forth to the minors unless finally he is cut and resurfaces as a decent bench role player for another team.

I am not ready to say Miranda is that type of player, I think of him more as Brian Dozier type of player, struggle a bit be good and worthy of a starting spot and then fade in his early 30's.

Donovan Solano has had a 4.5 year stretch where he's been an overall above average hitter. Brian Dozier had a 4 year stretch where he was an overall above average hitter. Solano's best stretch was 2019-2023 where he went 116, 127, 103, 97, and 113 currently OPS+. Dozier's best stretch was 2014 to 2017 where he went 114, 104, 134, and 126 OPS+. He never had any other season with an OPS+ of 100. 

I said "if Miranda ever has a 4 year stretch like Solano has we should be happy." You replied by telling me we shouldn't be happy with that, but instead he is like Brian Dozier. Who had a 4 year stretch. The big difference between being happy, and not being happy, is when the 4 season stretch happened? Solano is actually well on his way to making it a 5 year stretch now. If Jose Miranda puts together a 5 year stretch as an above average major league hitter, at any time in his career, we should be happy.

[chpettit19]

7 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

IMO, I think he is too injured to play the field but not injured enough he can't get 4/5AB's a game with days off, and I think the FO had a pretty good plan for this (Signing MAT) and were OK with it, thinking at some point he would be able to play the field but in the mean time hit so well that it wouldn't matter. Neither of those things happened and now they are stuck. Buxton wants to continue to hit so he wouldn't be OK with the DL and they probably are not sure how the locker room would react to doing something against Buxton's wants. And I think it is personally starting to frustrate the manager that he has to continue to put a terrible bat in the DH role, when the team could actually be better without him in the lineup. Just my two cents.

I don't really disagree with that. If the FO is forcing Rocco to not only play him, but hit him in the top 4 in the order I have a major problem with that. He's such a tough situation to handle. You need him if you want to reach your peak as a team. Even if he's just a DH. But when he's bad he brings your valley as a team even lower than it normally would be.

If this tumble in their record continues, and turns into a spiral, I'd IL him without caring about his, or the locker room's, feelings one bit. If they're not going to win in 2023 they need to do what they can to have him ready for 2024. This assumes that the Drs tell them surgery, and/or rest, between now and next February has a high likelihood of getting him back in CF. You can't risk him being a fulltime DH for the rest of his contract while chasing a chance to win a terrible division, but getting swept out of the playoffs again in 2023. We're to the point where 2024 and beyond is becoming more important when it comes to Buxton.

[DJL44]

It would be hilarious if the entire AL Central sold at the deadline.

[Vanimal46]

12 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

It would be hilarious if the entire AL Central sold at the deadline.

It’s possible that they will. Every team can make the argument to trade away their veteran players, play prospects, and still find their way to a division title with 82 wins. 

[TwinsDr2021]

9 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Donovan Solano has had a 4.5 year stretch where he's been an overall above average hitter. Brian Dozier had a 4 year stretch where he was an overall above average hitter. Solano's best stretch was 2019-2023 where he went 116, 127, 103, 97, and 113 currently OPS+. Dozier's best stretch was 2014 to 2017 where he went 114, 104, 134, and 126 OPS+. He never had any other season with an OPS+ of 100. 

I said "if Miranda ever has a 4 year stretch like Solano has we should be happy." You replied by telling me we shouldn't be happy with that, but instead he is like Brian Dozier. Who had a 4 year stretch. The big difference between being happy, and not being happy, is when the 4 season stretch happened? Solano is actually well on his way to making it a 5 year stretch now. If Jose Miranda puts together a 5 year stretch as an above average major league hitter, at any time in his career, we should be happy.

My point was Dozier did it while he was with the Twins and a fulltime player, Solano did it with 4 others teams than the Marlins.  So sure yes Miranda might be happy spending the the next 4, 5, 6  years bouncing around the majors and minors and finding a home a solid role minimum salary role player. But I am sure Dozier will take his 30 million and career over Solano's 12 million (and still counting) career. (I believe they were both rookies in 2012 and maybe someday Solano 748 with 529 started will catch up to Dozier's 1144 with 1097 started games played) Dozier's career WAR 23.8, Solano's career WAR 5.5,

so IMHO right now today if you told Miranda his career path is Solano he would be disappointed.

[chpettit19]

7 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

I think the Twins are limping (pun intended) Buxton along while we fight for first place in the ALC.  They know that he has better odds of being in the lineup every day if he remains at DH.  Only IF we come to a point where the FO feels that we cannot win the ALC will Buxton be put on the IL and possibly be headed for yet another knee operation.

IF, further surgery WILL NOT correct his knee issues, then they better look to the market to see if another team wants to trade for a DH as we will never get fair value on his contract.  I believe other teams would feel the same way, but it would not hurt to try.

Totally agree. I think they're hoping some magical switch will flip and suddenly this team will spring to life, and Kepler will be good, and Gallo will be his early season self, and Correa will get back to who he is (I actually believe this one), and Buxton will come around. I don't blame them for waiting on Buxton, and slow playing their decision on him. Blame them for some other things (*cough* Kepler *cough*), but not for seeing how things play out before making a big decision on Buck.

If there's no treatment to help him the Twins are in an absolutely terrible spot, and, honestly, need to hope he retires. His no trade clause, mixed with being only a DH, and potentially having a chronic knee problem, make me think it'd be really hard to trade him. Maybe they can eat a whole bunch of money and ship him back to his hometown Braves who are deep enough as a team to not have to rely on him, but would appreciate his hot streaks as they try to win another title?

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

My point was Dozier did it while he was with the Twins and a fulltime player, Solano did it with 4 others teams than the Marlins.  So sure yes Miranda might be happy spending the the next 4, 5, 6  years bouncing around the majors and minors and finding a home a solid role minimum salary role player. But I am sure Dozier will take his 30 million and career over Solano's 12 million (and still counting) career. (I believe they were both rookies in 2012 and maybe someday Solano 748 with 529 started will catch up to Dozier's 1144 with 1097 started games played) Dozier's career WAR 23.8, Solano's career WAR 5.5,

so IMHO right now today if you told Miranda his career path is Solano he would be disappointed.

Yes, and that is why I said "there was some context needed. Solano has been an above average major league hitter since 2019. If Miranda ends up with that slash line for any 4 year stretch of his career we should all be quite happy. I understand you're using his whole career, and that's the context you're going with. In that sense, I 100% agree. If he has Solano's early career struggles you don't keep him around. I just wanted to clarify that if Miranda ends up as the type of hitter Solano ended up as we should be happy."

We've kind of been talking past each other a little. My whole thing on this from the beginning was the context around which we looked at Solano. I acknowledged that you were going off his whole career, and that I agreed that wouldn't be ideal for Miranda. But I then added my own context of "if Miranda can become who Solano became," without any concern for anything outside of him becoming that player, then we should be happy.

[ashbury]

Do MLB roster rules permit a team to IL a player against his wishes?  If that veteran player says, I'm good to go but only as DH, are the team's options to play him, bench him, or DFA him?

IOW can a team IL a player simply on the grounds of being a bad hitter at present?

[Woof Bronzer]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Fine, take out him having to get to his position. His knee is barking at him with just what he's doing as a DH. Do you accept that adding playing CF on top of that is adding more work in any way, shape, or form? Is your belief that the Twins simply don't want to play him in CF? You think the guys with 6 and 7 figure salaries riding on the team succeeding think he's capable of playing CF, but just won't put him out there?

Or am I describing a hurt player? There's a difference between hurt and injured, no? NFL players go without practicing all week, but then play in a game because they're hurt but not injured. It's a spectrum.

I have never said DHing and playing CF have the exact same physical requirements, so we can put that talking point to rest.  Again, I am reacting to exactly what the Twins have told us:  he's physically unable to play CF, but he's physically able to run the bases.  My belief is that the Twins are playing an injured player because....I don't know, honestly.  They're desperate?  They don't want it to look like their plan for him didn't work?   Regardless, the decision is hurting both the team and Buxton.  

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Now we're concerned with him trotting out to center?  You may as well factor in every step he takes all day.  Is he in a wheelchair from the time he wakes up til he gets to the ballpark?  If not, how come?  All that walking around is wear and tear, no? 

What you are describing is an injured player.  It's really not that complicated, except that for some reason the Twins are refusing to put an injured player on the injured list.  

It’s time to bring back the golf carts!! Imagine how many steps would be saved if Buxton could get a ride out to the field and up to the plate when he is due up!

Even after his home run last night, the cart could have come to pick him up and give him a ride around the bases 🤣

[chpettit19]

12 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

I have never said DHing and playing CF have the exact same physical requirements, so we can put that talking point to rest.  Again, I am reacting to exactly what the Twins have told us:  he's physically unable to play CF, but he's physically able to run the bases.  My belief is that the Twins are playing an injured player because....I don't know, honestly.  They're desperate?  They don't want it to look like their plan for him didn't work?   Regardless, the decision is hurting both the team and Buxton.  

Except you have said, repeatedly, that if he's capable of running the bases (or DHing) he should automatically be capable of playing CF. So, sure, we can put that talking point to rest, but it's because you've repeatedly said that if he can do one he can do the other. Thus implying pretty clearly that they're the same. You can try to wiggle out of it semantically all you want, but that's been your stance. If he can DH he can play CF. And if he can't play CF then he's injured and can't DH. There's no debating that that's been your stance. You called their claim that he can do 1, but not the other, "nonsensical." That's not acknowledging they're different, sorry.

If you acknowledge that the physical requirements for playing CF, and DHing are different then you don't need to continue to be confused on why he's doing 1, but not the other. You've explained it right there. You need to be able to handle doing different things to do those 2 activities. He's capable of doing the requirements of DHing. He's not capable of doing the requirements of playing CF. So he's DHing, but not playing CF. 

He's clearly not helping the team right now while he's buried in this horrendous slump. He's been hurt this entire year. Capable of doing 1 set of activities, but not the other. Was he hurting the team in March and April when he had an OPS of .881? He had an .808 OPS as late as May 26th. Was he too injured, and hurting the team and himself then? He couldn't play CF then, but he could hit, and was hitting. He's terrible right now, and I have no idea why they keep hitting him at the top of the order.

But none of this has been your stance. Your stance was it's "nonsensical" to suggest he can DH, but not play CF. And if he can't play CF then he's automatically injured and shouldn't play at all. Is your argument just that he came of the IL too soon? Cuz otherwise it doesn't really make much sense.

[chpettit19]

15 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

It’s time to bring back the golf carts!! Imagine how many steps would be saved if Buxton could get a ride out to the field and up to the plate when he is due up!

Even after his home run last night, the cart could have come to pick him up and give him a ride around the bases 🤣

Walk a football field. Then jog a football field. Tell me if it's the same amount of work or not.

[Squirrel]

5 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

July 31st is right around the corner, and as things stand so far, the 2023 Twins isn’t very good. Barring a multiple week win streak, my mind is pretty set on what to do at the trade deadline… I want to be sellers and give playing time to the players who will be here in 2024+. With that being said…

DFA by July 31: 

Pagan and Kepler. This is nothing new and discussed on many threads. They need to go. 

Trade by July 31: 

Sonny Gray - I am open to a short term extension of 2, maybe 3 additional years. If he is looking for his last contract that pays him through his late 30s it ain’t going to happen here. Sell high on a career year at 33 years old. 

Joey Gallo - If he has any value, trade him away. He may be closer to the DFA category. 

Caleb Thielbar - He’s been a great story the last couple of years. 36 years old with 1 arbitration season left. He’ll have value on the trade market. 

Explore trading, but it would need to be a strong offer to execute:

Jorge Polanco - The Twins don’t appear to have too many visible leaders in the clubhouse. Polanco is one of them. 

 

I'm reposting the OP to get this thread back on track. This is what @Vanimal46 wants to talk about, not Buxton. Please stop threadjacking. I realize Buxton is the hot topic item, but you don't need to insert that discussion into every thread. Start your own or write a blog, but be respectful of the OP.

[Woof Bronzer]

 

13 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Walk a football field. Then jog a football field. Tell me if it's the same amount of work or not.

Does Buxton walk around the bases, but jog around the outfield?

Sprint around the bases, and then sprint from center to right center.  Tell me if it's the same amount of work or not.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Woof Bronzer said:

 

Does Buxton walk around the bases, but jog around the outfield?

Sprint around the bases, and then sprint from center to right center.  Tell me if it's the same amount of work or not.

Did you miss the post from the moderator?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

10 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Did you miss the post from the moderator?

Probably, given the reply was 2 minutes after. I agree with Squirrel. My apologies for encouraging the sidetracking. 

I think a Sonny Gray trade is an intriguing idea, and not without precedent, given the Kintzler and garcia trades in 2017

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Probably, given the reply was 2 minutes after. I agree with Squirrel. My apologies for encouraging the sidetracking. 

I think a Sonny Gray trade is an intriguing idea, and not without precedent, given the Kintzler and garcia trades in 2017

I think the Gray trade is the most interesting idea here.....I'd guess you can get more value back than Petty at this point. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

I think the Gray trade is the most interesting idea here.....I'd guess you can get more value back than Petty at this point. 

That is a good way of looking at it. 

[Woof Bronzer]

 

19 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Did you miss the post from the moderator?

I did, actually.  My bad.  Lips zipped.  

[gman]

I think the best trade chips might be Taylor, Farmer, Solano & Gray. Maybe Maeda would do enough to be tradable. I like to trade Kepler, Pagan and Gallo, but what would you get? The same for Polanco. is Gordon going to be around next year or will he even play before August? I'm curious about trading Vasguez.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, gman said:

I think the best trade chips might be Taylor, Farmer, Solano & Gray. Maybe Maeda would do enough to be tradable. I like to trade Kepler, Pagan and Gallo, but what would you get? The same for Polanco. is Gordon going to be around next year or will he even play before August? I'm curious about trading Vasguez.

I'd trade all of those players.....can't believe how bad Vasquez has been. I'd be the most hesitant on Farmer, as I think he's got value to this team in the next two years, possibly. I'd likely keep Maeda, unless getting a legit prospect or two back, as they can still get LUCKY this year and he's got value to them as a SP or RP (my preference). 

Polanco? I deal him. I'm just ready to move on, sadly. Losing Taylor would be a blow to the team, and if Lewis won't go to center, they can try either the AAA or AA CF at this point. Neither is young.....

It might, might, be a mistake to only have CC as a long time veteran, but I don't know that that matters this year. And, I really want to learn if Wallner, Larnach, Jeffers, Carnargo, Julien are legit options (and Miranda, but that's on Lewis moving to CF or AK moving to the OF, which defeats the Larnach / Wallner tests).

[jkcarew]

6 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

July 31st is right around the corner, and as things stand so far, the 2023 Twins isn’t very good. Barring a multiple week win streak, my mind is pretty set on what to do at the trade deadline… I want to be sellers and give playing time to the players who will be here in 2024+. With that being said…

DFA by July 31: 

Pagan and Kepler. This is nothing new and discussed on many threads. They need to go. 

Trade by July 31: 

Sonny Gray - I am open to a short term extension of 2, maybe 3 additional years. If he is looking for his last contract that pays him through his late 30s it ain’t going to happen here. Sell high on a career year at 33 years old. 

Joey Gallo - If he has any value, trade him away. He may be closer to the DFA category. 

Caleb Thielbar - He’s been a great story the last couple of years. 36 years old with 1 arbitration season left. He’ll have value on the trade market. 

Explore trading, but it would need to be a strong offer to execute:

Jorge Polanco - The Twins don’t appear to have too many visible leaders in the clubhouse. Polanco is one of them. 

 

Love it.

I think you could get a long-shot lottery ticket for Solano for a team needing another RH bat. I think he’s shown enough for that to be realistic. Go, full youth.

Admittedly, that might need to be an either/or with moving Polanco.

[Dman]

I hate to be that giver upper guy this early but I was thinking along the same lines as the OP.  I don't know if we can get anything for the spare parts guys we have on a team that just isn't gelling but there is way too much wrong to save the season. I Would listen on any and every vet we have and trade as many as possible as long as the return is worth it.  If the return is low I would go with a lower floor higher ceiling FCL or A ball prospect because average isn't cutting it or helping in any way.  For guys with value try to get close to top 100 value back.

There is still time to turn this train around and go on a run but even if they would happen to luck out and win the division this team is likely worse than the last place East team so what is the point.  They need to find better talent and most of the vets they have aren't helping.  Might as well see if any of the young guys can get it done and if not then start the rebuild in earnest again.  The mess we have now isn't working.

The way one aspect of the team has failed in games makes this team feel cursed.  Starting pitcher and pen do well and the offense can't score runs.  Offense scores runs and pen gives up the game.  Starter gives up the game before it even begins. One area always fails and gives the team no chance.  It feels like this team should be better than it is but alas the results say otherwise.

FWIW I was all in on most of the FO moves.  Trading to get Gray, Mahle, Paddack, and Lopez.  I thought getting jorge Lopez at the deadline last year was a great get even though the price was high.  I didn't love Trading Arraez but it seemed to make sense and now he is off to a record breaking start.  It just feels like no matter what is done it seems to be the wrong thing and or certainly not enough to make this team competitive with other top teams.  I guess the only consolation I have is the whole division is just as bad.

[gman]

9 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

It might, might, be a mistake to only have CC as a long time veteran, but I don't know that that matters this year. And, I really want to learn if Wallner, Larnach, Jeffers, Carnargo, Julien are legit options (and Miranda, but that's on Lewis moving to CF or AK moving to the OF, which defeats the Larnach / Wallner tests).

 

I agree with playing all the players in the prospect category. We never seem to find out if guys can make it or not. Next year we could easily be in the same boat. I might give Keirsey some play in center if Taylor gets traded, although if healthy I would like to see Martin play some center field.

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, gman said:

I agree with playing all the players in the prospect category. We never seem to find out if guys can make it or not. Next year we could easily be in the same boat. I might give Keirsey some play in center if Taylor gets traded, although if healthy I would like to see Martin play some center field.

I'd be shocked if we don't read Martin has surgery in July, maybe August. Though, when healthy, I want him in LF or CF for sure.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

2 hours ago, ashbury said:

Do MLB roster rules permit a team to IL a player against his wishes?  If that veteran player says, I'm good to go but only as DH, are the team's options to play him, bench him, or DFA him?

IOW can a team IL a player simply on the grounds of being a bad hitter at present?

According to AZPhil, they need an official diagnosis from the team Dr. It doesn’t specify that the player agree.

My take then is: they can’t Il Buck because he’s bad, but if he is injured, they can IL him against his wishes.

[Riverbrian]

At the deadline... you are either a buyer or a seller. Anything else is standing still and I don't care much for standing still. You have to get serious about fixing the offense right now in order to have the proper information for the trade deadline.

Like always I recommend flat out honest competition for playing time. It's time to stop waiting for some of these players to be better. 

For the Next 33 days... Assuming health... the 13 position players look like this. 

The OF is where the major pain point is... The quickest way to fix the OF is removal of the major pain points.  

C - Jeffers/Vazquez 

1B/3B - Lewis/Julien/Solano

2B/SS - Correa/Polanco/Farmer

OF - Kirilloff, Wallner, Taylor, Castro

DH - Buxton

These players compete against each other for the most playing time. Plenty of playing time available for all who are earning it. I don't care how much money they make they compete against each other.

If Polanco is injured for example, Larnach can be called up by sliding Castro into 2B mix or Julien into the 2B mix with Kirilloff moving back to the 1B mix. If you want to bring Miranda back... you can by moving Lewis into the OF mix. There is enough flexibility here to let your best bats play and help you find your best bats.

Yep Kepler is gone and so is Gallo. If you can trade them do it immediately otherwise DFA. WE all have 3 years worth of data that says who they are right now is who they have been.  They didn't get that shift change rule bounce we thought they might. Move on. 

If not in contention after 33 days... All expiring contracts are moved. All of them. 

If in contention... look for offense... don't go nuts and sell the farm for a Goldschmidt. Look for the solid but not spectacular hitter. They can be had at a much cheaper price... I am looking primarily for someone who can play 1B... more bang for your buck.   

 

 

[jorgenswest]

After the Rays series I said I am a seller short of them going 29-15 or better up until the deadline. I think I also framed it the best in the AL in that time period. They started strong against Toronto and Milwaukee and have revealed their mediocrity since.

I may define contention differently. Contending for the AL Central is not enough. They need to show they can contend in the playoffs. The playoffs are not a crapshoot. They would need to win 4 consecutive series. The best they have done during the season is winning two consecutive series. They haven’t shown anything close to a team that can win 4. I would hold fast for now. There are of series a true playoff contender should win up to the deadline. Go dominate the next 20% of the season.

Holding fast means I am not trading Gray for now. If Kepler or Gallo or Pagán are moved I wouldn’t see that as being a seller. 

 

[Nashvilletwin]

18 hours ago, DJL44 said:

I think they can go with the youth movement and still win the division. In fact, it might be their best chance to win the division

Exactly!  I’m not ready to give up on the division just because we decide to let Kiriloff, Julien, Lewis, Larnach, Wallner and Miranda essentially play every day the rest of the year. 

[Riverbrian]

19 hours ago, DJL44 said:

If you want to bring up Miranda find a home for Solano and give him that role.

I think they can go with the youth movement and still win the division. In fact, it might be their best chance to win the division.

Larnach looks better than Kepler in the outfield. Wallner or Julien looks better than Buxton at DH. Sands and Winder can replace Lopez and Pagan.

It's a good point. Where we are certainly isn't the fault of the youth.