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Posted

I think Rocco needs this team to make the playoffs this year to keep his job. Otherwise, three straight underwhelming years combined with head-scratching line-up changes like the one last night should be more than enough for the FO to realize they need a change.

Posted
3 hours ago, Squirrel said:

I’m more concerned with the performers who aren’t performing.

I see this argument a lot, but I just don't get it. Routinely under Baldelli, players underperform - particularly in tight contests and under pressure. We have had large roster turnover since 2019, and yet the results are very much the same, if not worse. How ISN'T this a managerial issue?

Honestly, I like Rocco Baldelli as a human being. Everything about him seems decent, nice and kind-hearted. I don't wish him ill will, and I don't speak crudely about him. What I can't stand is watching the Twins continue to underwhelm and play completely uninspired baseball under his watch. His decisions are often baffling, and his results speak for themselves.

This is very much like the Pagan situation. Does the FO really not think there are better candidates out there? What about Rocco's work is deserving of such patience and unconditional support?

Posted

I would agree that things got a little bit silly last night, but I also know that there will always be outliers to the “strict” adherence to what fans think would be wise.  If the Twins with Solano had scored a couple of runs and Garlick’s HR was the game winner, some would talk nonstop about how clever the substitutions were and what a genius Rocco was.  Would I have done it?  Nope.  Was it completely outlandish?  Probably not.  Platoons are generally more successful in the short term, but as stated, probably aren’t great for young players in the long run.

Others may disagree, but I’ve always been of the opinion that there are very few genius managers out there who will win and lose games frequently all by themselves.   They are always captive to or beneficiaries of the personnel on the team. If we had the best manager in the league (whoever that might be) the record is probably similar because the hitters aren’t hitting.  It seems likely that we are just not used to seeing good starting pitching and bad hitting so the whole world is off kilter and it must be the manager’s fault. The “I can’t believe Rocco can’t get these guys to hit” statement is just more convenient to make than the “I can’t believe how well Rocco has these starters pitching.”  

Rocco is signed for a couple more years.  With a couple of division titles, he’s probably earned it.  Cheering for the Twins is going to be more fun and less frustrating than nitpicking the managerial ups and downs of the team.

Posted
54 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

I'd like those who advocate for making this move to list candidates for hire or at the very minimum to list specific traits you feel the next manager should have.

No, that's clearly above our pay grade. As a fan, my job is to voice displeasure when the play is uninspired and/or direction of a team is off course. That's it.

But also, some of the best qualifications for management and leadership are about instinct - intangible qualities that might only reveal themselves in a closely-scrutinized body of work. Baseball is full of 55-45 decisions (where there are solid and reasonable arguments for either choice). You want a manager who can read these moments extremely well - to understand who's hot and who's not, whose nerves are steel and whose nerves are shot, who's ready to rise and who needs more coaching. These skills might show up in tight games, when the pressure is on, when the team is on a streak. They'd certainly show up in the postseason.

What have we seen from Rocco? The worst playoff play imaginable, coupled with dismal seasons where the bullpen and sloppy play in the field has crashed the season either early or late. The Twins under Rocco have routinely taken division leads, only to watch those leads slip away. In any other division in baseball, we wouldn't even be having this conversation - Rocco's lack of managerial skill would have been much more apparent.

But what do I want? It's more than Rocco. I want a total organizational rebuild. We're overdue, and we're only kicking the can down the road with recent signings of aging, injured "superstar" players. This FO doesn't have these instincts either, and we simply won't get to where we all want (or should want) to be: the World Series.

Posted

Problem with last night is we take out our best hitter because oh my god, they put a lefty in!  Besides Kirilloff, we have no one and absolutely no one that scares me on a nightly basis.  Correa and Buxton have turned into Sano 2.0 A & B.  They look awful majority of the time at the plate.  Correa's swing is long and slow and if guesses right he may hit it hard.  Gallo is what we thought he would be, nothing more there.

Gallo batting leadoff wasn't a bad thing but let's bat him in the bottom part of the lineup and put Kirilloff in leadoff which he isn't a leadoff hitter. Auto pencil in Correa and Buxton in 3 & 4 holes in lineup is about the only constant thing we get from Rocco.  2 highest paid players get what they want wether they produce or not.

Guys growing up batted no matter who was on the mound and if you are a Hitter and not a swinger, doesn't matter if it is a lefty or righty.  When a spreadsheet drives 99% of all decisions as a manager, you don't need a manager, you just need a babysitter.  Rocco is just that.  No gut, no feel, let me check my printout and go from there.

Posted
6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

But the last sentence is also interesting, and concerning. It seems to support the idea that things are indeed very formulaic, and robotic. There's not much leniency in following "the plan." A plan is not only good, it's needed in today's sports world. But being unable, or unwilling, to adjust that plan is every bit as harmful as not having one at all. The players being ready for moves should also be a positive in that they know they all need to be ready to contribute during any given game. This also goes to the complaints about bullpen usage/roles that pops up every now and then. I'd think the pitchers' meetings are also well communicated, and every bullpen arm knows what part of the game, and what part of the lineup they may see that day. It should allow them to maximize their preparation for the day. It doesn't seem to be working, though. So what's the disconnect? I hope it's something the FO, and coaching staff, are examining.

I'm glad they are communicating with the players. I'm glad they have a game plan. 

You are correct... the plan isn't working and plans often don't and are then in need of adjustment. 

Last night's utilization was more of the same on steroids.  

Posted
21 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

"Despite the early moves, including removing one of the team’s hottest hitters (Kirilloff), several Twins said there were no complaints in the dugout from players, attributing a lack of questions to the coaching staff thoroughly communicating its plan in Monday’s hitters’ meeting. Several players were informed they might not sniff the plate despite starting depending on how San Francisco utilized its pitching staff. One player said the group has been conditioned by the staff to expect moves because of the way the team’s strategy surrounds matchup-based decisions."

I think you've got to take anything Hayes says with a grain of salt.  Last night he immediately defended the moves by saying Manea threw 30 pitches in the pen before the game a la someone who is not pitching that night, so the Twins were duped into thinking he wasn't pitching.  Rocco himself debunked this - it was a lie, flat out, Manea didn't throw 30 pitches, but 8-10 which is SOP for someone who is going to pitch. Which means someone is feeding Hayes BS to defend the FO/manager because they know he'll run with it uncritically. 

That said, I am much more alarmed by the above quote than you seem to be.  It's baseball.  It's a game.  These guys are overthinking every little thing.   As a hitter you've got to literally make split second decisions with every single pitch.  To be successful you need a clear mind and instincts/reflexes honed over thousands and thousands of at bats.  There's such a thing as too much information, if you ask me.  

Community Moderator
Posted
1 minute ago, Woof Bronzer said:

I think you've got to take anything Hayes says with a grain of salt.  Last night he immediately defended the moves by saying Manea threw 30 pitches in the pen before the game a la someone who is not pitching that night, so the Twins were duped into thinking he wasn't pitching.  Rocco himself debunked this - it was a lie, flat out, Manea didn't throw 30 pitches, but 8-10 which is SOP for someone who is going to pitch. Which means someone is feeding Hayes BS to defend the FO/manager because they know he'll run with it uncritically. 

That said, I am much more alarmed by the above quote than you seem to be.  It's baseball.  It's a game.  These guys are overthinking every little thing.   As a hitter you've got to literally make split second decisions with every single pitch.  To be successful you need a clear mind and instincts/reflexes honed over thousands and thousands of at bats.  There's such a thing as too much information, if you ask me.  

He didn't defend the moves. He was wrong in the number of pitches Manaea threw in his bullpen, yes. It happens. That doesn't mean he was lying. It's entirely possible he just had bad information. And, he didn't defend anything, he just gave information. He didn't say the moves made sense. He didn't defend them in any way, shape, or form. Simply gave information. But you're now suggesting he's making up statements from players. Gonna go ahead and disagree with that stance. And throwing 8-10 pitches 2 hours before the game isn't SOP for someone who is going to pitch. I mean now you're actively making things up. Do you think Ober went out to the pen 2 hours before the game and threw 8 to 10 pitches then came back and warmed up again later? That's not SOP. It certainly shouldn't have fooled them in any way, and Hayes was wrong about that, but to suggest he's making up quotes is a bit of a stretch. And he called the moves "questionable" in his article. Doesn't exactly sound like someone defending Rocco. At least I don't regularly defend people by calling what they do "questionable."

You're certainly free to be alarmed. And there is certainly such a thing as too much information. It's the coaches jobs to know how much information each player needs to be successful, and give that to them without giving them too much. Maybe that's the disconnect. Maybe they're bad at judging who needs what info. Certainly a possibility. 

Posted

Julien is a role player at this point - it’s not the World Baseball tourney anymore. He’s not a stud, he has some good potential! As a guy who only plays 2B I don’t see him with a long future with the Twins. He’s up because Polanco is hurt, period. With that aside, Solano PH and got a single to start the inning. Later in the game, Garlick hit a HR & he had replaced Kirilloff. It’s not all managerial gloom & doom. Baldelli doesn’t have anything to do with the side striking out in the middle innings! Our bat to ball skills, regardless of other positive stats, are terrible as a group!! Hitting coach & the approach there seems to be reasonable to question.

Posted
6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

He didn't defend the moves. He was wrong in the number of pitches Manaea threw in his bullpen, yes. It happens. That doesn't mean he was lying. It's entirely possible he just had bad information. And, he didn't defend anything, he just gave information. He didn't say the moves made sense. He didn't defend them in any way, shape, or form. Simply gave information. But you're now suggesting he's making up statements from players. Gonna go ahead and disagree with that stance. And throwing 8-10 pitches 2 hours before the game isn't SOP for someone who is going to pitch. I mean now you're actively making things up. Do you think Ober went out to the pen 2 hours before the game and threw 8 to 10 pitches then came back and warmed up again later? That's not SOP. It certainly shouldn't have fooled them in any way, and Hayes was wrong about that, but to suggest he's making up quotes is a bit of a stretch. And he called the moves "questionable" in his article. Doesn't exactly sound like someone defending Rocco. At least I don't regularly defend people by calling what they do "questionable."

You're certainly free to be alarmed. And there is certainly such a thing as too much information. It's the coaches jobs to know how much information each player needs to be successful, and give that to them without giving them too much. Maybe that's the disconnect. Maybe they're bad at judging who needs what info. Certainly a possibility. 

Uh, yes, I'm assuming Ober warmed up.  Not sure where you're going with that.  But if you don't think what Hayes is doing is defending the organization -- by posting information that "explains" a decision without doing a shred of due diligence to confirm whether that information is actually true -- man, can't help ya. 

Anyway, my stance is, this organization's plan aint working.  

Community Moderator
Posted
Just now, Woof Bronzer said:

Uh, yes, I'm assuming Ober warmed up.  Not sure where you're going with that.  But if you don't think what Hayes is doing is defending the organization -- by posting information that "explains" a decision without doing a shred of due diligence to confirm whether that information is actually true -- man, can't help ya. 

Anyway, my stance is, this organization's plan aint working.  

The "bullpen" they watched Manaea throw wasn't him just warming up. It was a separate incident. He went out to the pen hours before the game started and threw 8-10 or 30 or however many pitches. Then he warmed up again for the game. That is not normal. That is not what Bailey Ober did. Starters do not go to the pen hours before the game and throw pitches off the mound. 

Giving information the general public didn't have, or explaining what may be behind a decision, is not the same as defending it. Not at all. I can explain to you what Hitler was attempting to do without defending Nazis. Explaining and defending are not the same thing. How do you know what due diligence he did? He was wrong. It happens. He was given bad information. It happens. To completely write off anything he says now because he was wrong about the number of pitches Manaea threw in a bullpen session that you don't even know isn't typical practice feels awfully extreme. But you do you.

Agreed. That's what my post said. There's a disconnect. What they're trying to accomplish, and how they're trying to accomplish it, aren't meshing. I hope they're working on figuring out what the problem is. I think you very well may be correct with information overload. Correa loves info, and wants all he can get. If that's how they're treating everyone that's a problem. It's a very real possibility that certain players have too much going on in their heads at the plate. Maybe all the info was helpful when they had all day to mess with their batting gloves between pitches, but now with the clock they can't process as well and the team needs to adjust. Maybe they're just not that good of players and we need to adjust our expectations of what these guys can reasonably do. I don't know. Lots of options.

Posted
Just now, chpettit19 said:

How do you know what due diligence he did? He was wrong. It happens. He was given bad information. It happens. To completely write off anything he says now because he was wrong about the number of pitches Manaea threw in a bullpen session that you don't even know isn't typical practice feels awfully extreme. 

Well, it's not just this one thing with Hayes.  Read his articles, listen to him on the radio or Gleeman and the Geek.  To me he truly, truly believes part of the role of a beat writer is to defend the organization/player - it's how to repay them for granting him clubhouse access and interviews.  On G&G recently he excused Correa's struggles by saying he has a newborn.  (In fact, he said Correa didn't actually have a bad back when he missed a couple games, that was a ruse because Correa really just wanted to spend time with his infant.)  Even G&G were pushing back on him hard ("Correa isn't the only professional athlete to ever have a child")  But Hayes just could not bring himself to say without qualification that Correa is simply performing poorly.  

Remember, Hayes is the guy who said it takes weeks for outfielders to get their bodies accustomed to standing in the field for 3 hours a day. 

All of this is simply to say, he's just not someone to take seriously in my opinion.  Sorry for getting off on a tangent.

Posted
8 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Julien is a role player at this point - it’s not the World Baseball tourney anymore. He’s not a stud, he has some good potential! As a guy who only plays 2B I don’t see him with a long future with the Twins. He’s up because Polanco is hurt, period. With that aside, Solano PH and got a single to start the inning. Later in the game, Garlick hit a HR & he had replaced Kirilloff. It’s not all managerial gloom & doom. Baldelli doesn’t have anything to do with the side striking out in the middle innings! Our bat to ball skills, regardless of other positive stats, are terrible as a group!! Hitting coach & the approach there seems to be reasonable to question.

We have a lot of role players in that sense. 

If you want to grow tomatoes... plant tomatoes... don't plant carrots. 

If you want to grow a role player. Plant a role player. 

Julien will be a role player if the Twins plant him as one. It is all he will be allowed to be by an organization that has predetermined his fate.  

Do I trust the front office to determine who is a significant player in the future and who is a future role player. I want to be clear... I do not. 

They shouldn't trust themselves either because it's too hard to do and the margins are too thin. 

If the front office is going to purposely limit potential because they have predetermined his worth and stop his potential on purpose. I want a new front office as soon as reasonably possible. 

Thankfully, I do not think they feel this way about Julien.   

 

Posted

Kiriloff should never be pinch hit for period. And why is Julien batting 4th? He should have been lead-off. If you then want to pinch hit for him in the 3rd/4th OK. And if you want to use Garlick, PH him for Gallo who's completely helpless against lefties, never Kiriloff. Just incompetence.

Community Moderator
Posted
Just now, Woof Bronzer said:

Well, it's not just this one thing with Hayes.  Read his articles, listen to him on the radio or Gleeman and the Geek.  To me he truly, truly believes part of the role of a beat writer is to defend the organization/player - it's how to repay them for granting him clubhouse access and interviews.  On G&G recently he excused Correa's struggles by saying he has a newborn.  (In fact, he said Correa didn't actually have a bad back when he missed a couple games, that was a ruse because Correa really just wanted to spend time with his infant.)  Even G&G were pushing back on him hard ("Correa isn't the only professional athlete to ever have a child")  But Hayes just could not bring himself to say without qualification that Correa is simply performing poorly.  

Remember, Hayes is the guy who said it takes weeks for outfielders to get their bodies accustomed to standing in the field for 3 hours a day. 

All of this is simply to say, he's just not someone to take seriously in my opinion.  Sorry for getting off on a tangent.

I read his article today. He wasn't defending the organization in it. Him having defended the organization, or players, in other situations is a different thing. And completely normal. Gleeman rips the organization apart for still having Pagan around, but defends them on other things. Your feelings on Hayes are whatever. You can feel however you want about him. But I'd encourage you to use a little more nuance beyond dismissing everything he says out of hand because you disagree with some of his takes.

Community Moderator
Posted
1 minute ago, howeda7 said:

Kiriloff should never be pinch hit for period. And why is Julien batting 4th? He should have been lead-off. If you then want to pinch hit for him in the 3rd/4th OK. And if you want to use Garlick, PH him for Gallo who's completely helpless against lefties, never Kiriloff. Just incompetence.

Gallo actually has pretty neutral platoon splits. His career OPS against lefties is .764. That's an above average hitter. I agree they shouldn't platoon Kirilloff, but that Gallo comment is wrong.

Posted
3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm going to start by saying I thought the early pinch hitting was absolutely ridiculous last night. Wasn't a fan of it then, and am not a fan of it now. 

That being said...the Twins had 4 hits, and 4 walks last night. 2 of the hits, and 3 of the walks, came from the 2 guys who entered the game as pinch hitters in the 2nd and 3rd. I don't know that we really expected Kirilloff and Julien to do better than reaching base 5 times, with 1 homerun mixed in. 

As a general rule I will never think pinch hitting in the 2nd and 3rd for your 1 and 4 hole hitters is smart. Why shorten your bench so quick? But those moves didn't kill the team last night. Buxton swinging at a first pitch breaking ball off the plate from a reliever who just entered the game was worse for the team. Buxton leaving 3 men in scoring position with 2 outs was far worse for the team. The players lost the game, even if I'll never understand Rocco's moves in the slightest.

You took the words right out of my mouth and wrote them much better than I could. I will add that it looked like the closer for them last night was really struggling to throw strikes. What does MAT do? Swing at the 1st pitch and hit into a double play. Come on! Make him prove he can throw a strike before hitting the ball into the ground. But I did think it was one of the worst managed games that Rocco has had as well.

Posted
4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I read his article today. He wasn't defending the organization in it. Him having defended the organization, or players, in other situations is a different thing. And completely normal. Gleeman rips the organization apart for still having Pagan around, but defends them on other things. Your feelings on Hayes are whatever. You can feel however you want about him. But I'd encourage you to use a little more nuance beyond dismissing everything he says out of hand because you disagree with some of his takes.

We disagree on Hayes.  I appreciate your encouragement, but I'm adult enough to develop my own educated opinions about someone, thanks.  Again, no legitimate journalist is going to run with information before vetting it.  That's called gossiping.  

Community Moderator
Posted
1 minute ago, FlyingFinn said:

You took the words right out of my mouth and wrote them much better than I could. I will add that it looked like the closer for them last night was really struggling to throw strikes. What does MAT do? Swing at the 1st pitch and hit into a double play. Come on! Make him prove he can throw a strike before hitting the ball into the ground. But I did think it was one of the worst managed games that Rocco has had as well.

Their swing decisions have been hard to watch. Larnach is a fastball masher, and I've watched him take multiple first pitch fastballs right down the middle since he's been back. Swing at those! Then we have the Buxton and MAT type ABs from last night where they're chasing first pitches they have no chance of doing damage with. I'm not smart enough to know how you fix those things, but they really need to be fixed.

Posted

Here are two questions for the stat heads out in the gallery. I don't know the answer so I'll take reasonable guesses. 

All baseball teams employ lots of analysts. I assume that they are not repeating work so there should be a lot of different data points to consume. The goal of all this data is improved product on the field. 

With all this assumed data. 

1. Why does the Left/Right Splits appear to be the only thing visible to us with the naked eye as far as lineup alteration from game to game? There has to be data gathered that suggests Byron Buxton doesn't hit this type of pitcher for example.  

2. Why don't we see more batting order fluctuation based on other data such as Byron Buxton doesn't hit this type of pitcher well so for this matchup... Buxton moves down in the order. 

Back to question #1... Why do splits appear to trump all other data points because I assume that there are other data points? Lots of them... because there are a lot of analysts in the modern game to gather a lot of different data points? .  

Posted
18 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Do I trust the front office to determine who is a significant player in the future and who is a future role player. I want to be clear... I do not. 

Currently the players on the active roster they drafted are Jeffers, Julien, and Larnach. So in 7 years that is terrible. Miranda, AK, Gordon were the previous regime picks and if they have actually done some for more then a minute I would give them some credit. They traded for Celestino when he was young, nothing yet. Wallner is AAA and I guess he hits with the wrong hand? Maybe/Hopefully Lewis does something in the majors in his 7th year.

Posted
Quote

What I can't stand is watching the Twins continue to underwhelm and play completely uninspired baseball under his watch. His decisions are often baffling...

You express my sentiments exactly. They are getting hard to follow. I turned it back to Chicago radio for the finish of the WSox/Cleve game.

Spirit. Spunk. Intensity. Determination. Missing in Action.

 

Posted
41 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Currently the players on the active roster they drafted are Jeffers, Julien, and Larnach. So in 7 years that is terrible. Miranda, AK, Gordon were the previous regime picks and if they have actually done some for more then a minute I would give them some credit. They traded for Celestino when he was young, nothing yet. Wallner is AAA and I guess he hits with the wrong hand? Maybe/Hopefully Lewis does something in the majors in his 7th year.

I think development goes way beyond the draft. 

If the previous regime drafted Kirilloff and they did...  does the previous regime get the credit for drafting Alex or does the current regime get the credit since they were responsible for his development since being drafted.

To give the credit to the previous regime for simply drafting the player... it kinda suggests that the player is fated to become what he is going to become. Might as well let all the coaches go if that is the case because all you have to do is nail the draft and the player is going to be what he is going to be.  

The Dodgers always draft late but they develop a lot of incredible prospects. Drafting late doesn't seem to kill their farm system. Bobby Miller is hitting the stage tonight I believe. Did they draft well or develop well. Probably both but I would put more credence... a lot more on the development side.  

Posted

The MLBT article implied that Rocco was extended “prior to last year”, so that would be 2021. Doesn’t mean he’s super safe right now.

I don’t think Baldelli is that great at his job, but this team has bigger issues like not having enough talented batters or relievers, and also having a severely under qualified batting coach who hasn’t been an improvement from the previous guy. The front office would just hire another manager who will execute their vision, and similar complaints and criticisms with our team would generally continue.

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