Twins will go as far as Rocco won’t let them

[tlkriens]

My biggest complaint about Minnesota Twins manager Rocco Baldelli in his five years in Minneapolis is his use of the bullpen and it reared its ugly head again Tuesday night in Chicago.

https://kornradio.com/news/twins-will-go-as-far-as-rocco-wont-let-them/?fbclid=IwAR0nxoFOO2XZc5xZ1OFt-e6btXUCoPlcXQt-H1dBGp6swujVKJzS3lfNBT0

[wabene]

Your article contains your opinions which I don't agree with. Lopez was used the same way he had been used all year and as you say without allowing a run. Your vague fascination with the "closer" role would have changed the way he had been used successfully all season. You say you don't know if Duran was available.  He was used two days in a row two days prior and I'm sure was on the shelf. Last year they took a guy who could only get through 16 innings the season prior and got him through an all-star season unscathed. I trust their judgement on Duran. Jax has only been used as a one inning pitcher and that is how they are going to continue to use him. 

There were four relievers available last night and they used them. Since they felt it was likely they would need to use Stewart, they preferred him in the 9th and the better reliever to start an inning with a man on second in the 10th. This is reasonable to me.

If your going to join the mob blaming Rocco for every outcome you don't like I will simply state that it is the organization that collectively came up with these usage strategies you deride, not just Rocco. 

[Nine of twelve]

I stopped reading this article when the writer (whom I assume to be the OP of this thread) stated Dee Gordon tied the game with a home run. At that point I concluded that I was reading the opinion of someone who doesn't know the Twins very well. For that reason I don't value his opinion on anything Twins-related.

[Whitey333]

These last two plus years have been amongst the most boring Twins teams in recent memory.  Most of this is Roccos fault due to strange lineups, strange bullpen decisions, undisciplined baseball, still running the team like the 2019 Bomba squad.  This team is decent, but not great.  IMO this team will only go as far as Rocco let's it.  Tuesdays loss is not the end of the world.  But his use of bullpen is questionable as always.  Your top relievers not available with an off day Monday?  Pagan never used?  If he can't be trusted he shouldn't be on the team.  Same with Moran.  Rocco though is,has been, and will continue to be the biggest detriment to the team.  

Edited May 3, 2023 by Squirrel
Edited to remove disrespect

[MGX]

The above criticisms of the article are noted, but the fact remains it contains some legitimate points. Joe Ryan was cruising along & the excuse Baldelli gives - “[Ryan] had an inning where he had to work a little bit,” I don't see this as a reason to remove a SP who is having a great night & has thrown only 87 pitches.

Furthermore, it was a 1-0 game & still hanging very much in the balance. As the article mentioned & someone pointed out above, Duran was unavailable. So we have 3 high leverage RP's (Thielbar, Jax & Lopez) left at that point. To start using them in the 7th assumes everything will go perfect in the final 3 innings. In a 1-0 game that is short-sighted IMO.

For me the preferred option is Ryan to pitch one more inning & leave your top 3 RP's for the final two innings. I don't expect things to go perfectly when using the bullpen. The clear strength of this team is our top 3 SP's. In a game where the offense is struggling if you have one of those 3 going well you need to get as much as you reasonably can from them.

[IndianaTwin]

1 hour ago, wabene said:

...There were four relievers available last night and they used them. Since they felt it was likely they would need to use Stewart, they preferred him in the 9th and the better reliever to start an inning with a man on second in the 10th. This is reasonable to me....

 

 

Not to mention that Stewart came in to face multiple righties and Thielbar got the couple lefties. 

[Cory Engelhardt]

36 minutes ago, MGX said:

The above criticisms of the article are noted, but the fact remains it contains some legitimate points. Joe Ryan was cruising along & the excuse Baldelli gives - “[Ryan] had an inning where he had to work a little bit,” I don't see this as a reason to remove a SP who is having a great night & has thrown only 87 pitches.

Furthermore, it was a 1-0 game & still hanging very much in the balance. As the article mentioned & someone pointed out above, Duran was unavailable. So we have 3 high leverage RP's (Thielbar, Jax & Lopez) left at that point. To start using them in the 7th assumes everything will go perfect in the final 3 innings. In a 1-0 game that is short-sighted IMO.

For me the preferred option is Ryan to pitch one more inning & leave your top 3 RP's for the final two innings. I don't expect things to go perfectly when using the bullpen. The clear strength of this team is our top 3 SP's. In a game where the offense is struggling if you have one of those 3 going well you need to get at much as you reasonably can from them.

Ryan's velocity dipped quite a bit at the end of the 6th compared to the rest of the game. If you are assuming that he would give you another full inning, while throwing 87 mph fastballs, then I don't know what to tell you. I would argue that keeping in a tired pitcher is more stupid than not at that point.

Lopez is a good pitcher, and Eloy got him for a homerun on a pitch 8 inches inside. Sometimes you just tip your cap.

And, lastly, just because bringing in a reliever in a specific spot didn't work in this specific game DOES NOT MEAN that doing something different would yield a different result.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Whitey333 said:

These last two plus years have been amongst the most boring Twins teams in recent memory.  Most of this is Roccos fault due to strange lineups, strange bullpen decisions, undisciplined baseball, still running the team like the 2019 Bomba squad.  This team is decent, but not great.  IMO this team will only go as far as Rocco let's it.  Tuesdays loss is not the end of the world.  But his use of bullpen is questionable as always.  Your top relievers not available with an off day Monday?  Pagan never used?  If he can't be trusted he shouldn't be on the team.  Same with Moran.  Rocco though is,has been, and will continue to be the biggest detriment to the team.  

Can't be trusted so shouldn't be on the team is an interesting thing to try to argue against 1 game's bullpen use. If Stewart can't be trusted he shouldn't be on the team either, no? I don't understand your point. When was he supposed to have used Pagan or Moran last night? He used 3 of his 4 best relievers, and the other one he used didn't allow a run. What are we mad at?

I don't know whether Duran was, or wasn't, available yesterday. Isn't it possible Rocco was saving him for a save situation? If they'd had the lead in the 9th or 10th do you know that they wouldn't have had Duran in at that point? Blindly blaming Rocco is no better than blindly being a Rocco apologist.

[chpettit19]

47 minutes ago, MGX said:

The above criticisms of the article are noted, but the fact remains it contains some legitimate points. Joe Ryan was cruising along & the excuse Baldelli gives - “[Ryan] had an inning where he had to work a little bit,” I don't see this as a reason to remove a SP who is having a great night & has thrown only 87 pitches.

Furthermore, it was a 1-0 game & still hanging very much in the balance. As the article mentioned & someone pointed out above, Duran was unavailable. So we have 3 high leverage RP's (Thielbar, Jax & Lopez) left at that point. To start using them in the 7th assumes everything will go perfect in the final 3 innings. In a 1-0 game that is short-sighted IMO.

For me the preferred option is Ryan to pitch one more inning & leave your top 3 RP's for the final two innings. I don't expect things to go perfectly when using the bullpen. The clear strength of this team is our top 3 SP's. In a game where the offense is struggling if you have one of those 3 going well you need to get at much as you reasonably can from them.

Did Rocco say Duran was unavailable? Or did he just not get used because there was no save situation? I honestly don't know if Rocco said he was unavailable after the game.

[nicksaviking]

We're complaining about using Jorge Lopez? The guy who until yesterday had given up zero earned runs, and seven total baserunners in his previous 12 innings? OK.

 

[Squirrel]

MOD NOTE: Stop referring to one another as apologists or haters. That is a non-starter here. Respectfully disagree and rebut one another's posts, but when you start to qualify the characters of the posters to make your point, you will be gone from the site.

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, MGX said:

The above criticisms of the article are noted, but the fact remains it contains some legitimate points. Joe Ryan was cruising along & the excuse Baldelli gives - “[Ryan] had an inning where he had to work a little bit,” I don't see this as a reason to remove a SP who is having a great night & has thrown only 87 pitches.

Furthermore, it was a 1-0 game & still hanging very much in the balance. As the article mentioned & someone pointed out above, Duran was unavailable. So we have 3 high leverage RP's (Thielbar, Jax & Lopez) left at that point. To start using them in the 7th assumes everything will go perfect in the final 3 innings. In a 1-0 game that is short-sighted IMO.

For me the preferred option is Ryan to pitch one more inning & leave your top 3 RP's for the final two innings. I don't expect things to go perfectly when using the bullpen. The clear strength of this team is our top 3 SP's. In a game where the offense is struggling if you have one of those 3 going well you need to get at much as you reasonably can from them.

Was Ryan cruising? the 6th wasn't an easy inning at all for all that he only faced 3 batters. a 12 pitch AB that ends in a walk is a real win for the hitter and it took a nice double play to end the inning. probably a 50-50 call there on whether to leave Ryan in or not...and I'm sure the hindsight folks would have buried Rocco if Ryan had been the one to surrender the dinger.

But using Lopez in the 7th makes a ton of sense if you're holding Duran to lock it down for the save: the 3-4-5 hitters were up and Lopez has been excellent this season and a prime choice to take the high leverage situation. I definitely prefer the Twins attitude of having their best relievers face the other team's best hitters in the late innings than trotting out the "closer" to pitch the 9th just because it's the 9th, even if the 7-8-9 guys are coming up.

This is actually old-school thinking for relievers, before Tony LaRussa convinced everyone that you were better off using your best pitcher to throw one inning and only in a save situation in the 9th (along with agents who convinced players (correctly) that they would get paid more if they were "closers" and insisted on having that defined role)

[Rod Carews Birthday]

I really believe that blaming Rocco for last night’s loss is a bit extreme.  Decision by decision. . . here we go.

Taking out Joe Ryan “early”.  It’s hard to know how Ryan was feeling.  He was definitely less sharp in the sixth inning than he was earlier in the game.  Jorge Lopez, statistically their best reliever so far this year, was rested and ready.  He came in and a guy hit a really good pitch (not a mistake pitch) out of the park.  It happens.  I take that gamble all day long.  I might be the world’s biggest Joe Ryan fan, but he’s not Bob Gibson.  He was not trending in the right direction at that point.

Griffin Jax comes in to pitch the eighth inning and does well.  He’s been a one inning guy all year and he did his job.  Could he pitch another inning?  Maybe, but it’s not crazy to think he would turn into a pumpkin in another inning.  One inning relievers are pretty much the standard across the league.

Brock Stewart comes in to pitch the ninth.  This was certainly his craziest decision, and it looked a little scary, but he got by with it.  It’s not something I would have chosen, but again, he got by with it and the Twins lived to see extra innings.  Maybe it bodes well for Stewart’s future to get through something like that. 

Caleb Thielbar comes out for the tenth.  The argument is that Duran should have been pitching.  OK, so then who do you have for the eleventh assuming that Duran had done the job?  When you go to extra innings, everyone’s bullpen becomes a little bit unraveled, plus it seems likely that Duran was only a break glass in an emergency option, since he pitched two in a row over the weekend and we need someone to be able to pitch the next game. Duran has been very good, but not lights out this season. By the way, statistically speaking, Thielbar has a lower WHIP, a lower ERA, has issued less walks, and has given up less home runs than Duran so far this season - albeit over less of the opposing teams’ heart of the order.  Thielbar gave up ONE hit, a single and otherwise pitched well.  Oh, and the ball hit was out of the strike zone.  Good piece of hitting by a professional hitter.  The situation would not have been as dire if the Twins had been able to hit a little bit in the last couple of innings themselves.  By the way, imagine the gnashing of teeth on the White Sox side about giving up the tying home run to Nick Gordon, a guy hitting .140, a number which might currently overstate his hitting prowess. 

Sometimes things don’t work out the way we expect.  It’s a loss.  They will lose about 50 more games this season (as will almost every other team).  It will not break the season, nor would a victory have made it.  It’s funny, if a player gets a hit 40% of the time, he’s having a season for the ages and will likely be in the hall of fame, but we expect managers to bat 1.000 or he’s a bum.  Yikes!

[MGX]

1 hour ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

Ryan's velocity dipped quite a bit at the end of the 6th compared to the rest of the game. If you are assuming that he would give you another full inning, while throwing 87 mph fastballs, then I don't know what to tell you. I would argue that keeping in a tired pitcher is more stupid than not at that point.

Lopez is a good pitcher, and Eloy got him for a homerun on a pitch 8 inches inside. Sometimes you just tip your cap.

And, lastly, just because bringing in a reliever in a specific spot didn't work in this specific game DOES NOT MEAN that doing something different would yield a different result.

You have some fair points. If Ryan was truly gassed after 87 pitches then he was, & I'm fine with removing him. It seemed to me that he was our best chance to get through the 7th & really set up the bullpen. 

Regarding, who was used in relief. I'm fine with using the three pitchers I mentioned previously (Thielbar, Jax & Lopez) in high leverage situations. As you said they aren't perfect & sometimes give up runs. That's why I was hoping for one more inning from Ryan.

[MGX]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Did Rocco say Duran was unavailable? Or did he just not get used because there was no save situation? I honestly don't know if Rocco said he was unavailable after the game.

Since he didn't pitch in the 9th or 10th it seemed like he was unavailable. 

[Cory Engelhardt]

5 minutes ago, MGX said:

You have some fair points. If Ryan was truly gassed after 87 pitches then he was, & I'm fine with removing him. It seemed to me that he was our best chance to get through the 7th & really set up the bullpen. 

Regarding, who was used in relief. I'm fine with using the three pitchers I mentioned previously (Thielbar, Jax & Lopez) in high leverage situations. As you said they aren't perfect & sometimes give up runs. That's why I was hoping for one more inning from Ryan.

I get that. But let's say Lopez goes 1-2-3 in the 7th (like he has for the rest of the year basically) and the Twins then hold on for the win. That could have certainly been an outcome last night, no?

Would the coach's role in that outcome have been better than what happened last night? 

[Rod Carews Birthday]

2 minutes ago, MGX said:

Regarding, who was used in relief. I'm fine with using the three pitchers I mentioned previously (Thielbar, Jax & Lopez) in high leverage situations. As you said they aren't perfect & sometimes give up runs. That's why I was hoping for one more inning from Ryan.

But all of the runs were given up by the pitchers you were OK with using.  The more questionable guy got through his inning.  That’s baseball sometimes.  (Even) more innings from starters would be awesome if they were likely to continue to cruise, but again, it’s hard to know as a fan what the inside baseball is at that moment.  

[chaderic20]

From calling Nick Gordon, Dee Gordon, to claiming Brock Stewart is a bad choice because you've never heard him (which isn't surprising, considering the Nick/Dee confusion), and then Duran being unavailable isn't a good enough reason for not using him. Great stuff. Love Stu's articles....oh, what's that? This wasn't Stu?

[MGX]

25 minutes ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

I get that. But let's say Lopez goes 1-2-3 in the 7th (like he has for the rest of the year basically) and the Twins then hold on for the win. That could have certainly been an outcome last night, no?

Would the coach's role in that outcome have been better than what happened last night? 

The only point I was making is to have Ryan get one more inning to help set up the end of the game better. I had no issue with the relievers used considering that it seemed Duran was unavailable. 

Of course we could have gotten 3 shutout innings from our BP & everything would be great. IMO we expect that too often considering the current state of our BP. We seem to have 4 relievers that are trusted currently. When you have a chance to get a SP deep into the game that will help our BP a great deal for that specific game & going forward.

[MGX]

32 minutes ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

But all of the runs were given up by the pitchers you were OK with using.  The more questionable guy got through his inning.  That’s baseball sometimes.  (Even) more innings from starters would be awesome if they were likely to continue to cruise, but again, it’s hard to know as a fan what the inside baseball is at that moment.  

Even good pitchers give up runs. I agree it's hard to know if Ryan would have continued to cruise. 

[Nine of twelve]

47 minutes ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

Sometimes things don’t work out the way we expect.  It’s a loss.  They will lose about 50 more games this season (as will almost every other team). 

I also feel certain that we will lose 50 more games. If that happens we'll finish at 99-63. So maybe even more than 50.

[Cory Engelhardt]

2 minutes ago, MGX said:

The only point I was making is to have Ryan get one more inning to help set up the end of the game better. I had no issue with the relievers used considering that it seemed Duran was unavailable. 

Of course we could have gotten 3 shutout innings from our BP & everything would be great. IMO we expect that too often considering the current state of our BP. We seem to have 4 relievers that are trusted currently. When you have a chance to get a SP deep into the game that will help our BP a great deal for that specific game & going forward.

Stewart has the stuff, it appears, for me to make that number 5. Short sample, but his stuff is impressive. 

[Nine of twelve]

This is a rhetorical question (meaning I'm not asking for a specific response). Which is worse: pulling the starter too soon or pulling him too late?

[Rod Carews Birthday]

3 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

This is a rhetorical question (meaning I'm not asking for a specific response). Which is worse: pulling the starter too soon or pulling him too late?

Yes.  

[TwinsDr2021]

43 minutes ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

I get that. But let's say Lopez goes 1-2-3 in the 7th (like he has for the rest of the year basically) and the Twins then hold on for the win. That could have certainly been an outcome last night, no?

Would the coach's role in that outcome have been better than what happened last night? 

Is it possible for that outcome to happen and still not like the decision? Some people seem to be missing that point (not saying you)

IMO when a top end type starter has a 1 hitter after 6 with 87 pitches my expectation is that he goes back out for 1 more inning. Even if he gives up a run that inning it is an great start and helps set the bullpen for the whole series. Maybe Ryan and Rocco talked and Ryan said I can go back out but I am pretty much spent, and my expectation or hope was never going to happen.

I will say this, Win or Lose I didn't like the decisions and won't even if the next 10 times it turns into wins.

[CRF]

13 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

This is a rhetorical question (meaning I'm not asking for a specific response). Which is worse: pulling the starter too soon or pulling him too late?

My opinion is...which combined with $20 will get you coffee at Starbucks...is that they can both be bad. Very bad. Of the two, in general, I think pulling a guy too late is worse. Last night, I think Ryan was pulled too soon. I would have let him start the 7th and see what happens. You can always pull him right away if he gets into trouble. Maybe it works out...maybe it doesn't, but last night sure didn't. Btw...I have no idea how much coffee is at Starbucks, but I know I can't afford it. 

[TwinsDr2021]

9 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

This is a rhetorical question (meaning I'm not asking for a specific response). Which is worse: pulling the starter too soon or pulling him too late?

I am going with too early (during the regular season). You pull a pitcher too early that pitcher won't pitch again for 5 or 6 days, inning(s) you will never get back, plus it could tax the pen with could result in multiple games being player differently. Pulling too late may cost the game, but hopefully doesn't blew up your pen. (Now I am talking about pulling a guy 1 or two innings early, not a batter or two)

[wsnydes]

The hindsight factor is strong here.  If Ryan gives up that HR, then we'd be sitting here railing Rocco for not pulling Ryan.  Rocco can't win in this scenario.

Secondly, the pitch that was hit out was in the RH batters box.  That's not a pitch to hit, let alone hit out.  That's quite the adjustment for a batter to make.  Even moreso to actually keep it fair.  That ball will hook foul 9 times out of 10.  Sometimes you just have to tip your cap to the opponent.  It's not like that ball was hung out over the middle of the plate.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, MGX said:

Since he didn't pitch in the 9th or 10th it seemed like he was unavailable. 

I would have saved him for a save situation so I'm not willing to make that assumption. If they used him in the 9th they still go to Thielbar in the 10th. If they use him in the 10th they go to Thielbar in the 11th. That's the problem with using your closer in a tie game on the road. If Rocco didn't say he was unavailable I don't think we can assume he was.

[Brock Beauchamp]

In that final batter, Ryan threw four fastballs that came in at 89, 90, 89, 90.

That's roughly 3mph slower than he was sitting earlier in the game.

It's not only about pitch count, people. The manager's job is to actually watch his pitchers out there.