Souhan: Mauer is Twins 2019 Most Valuable Pensioner

[jctwins]

http://www.startribune.com/joe-mauer-money-goes-back-into-the-coffers-and-out-comes-deeper-and-more-talented-twins-team/510360372/

 

 

Surprised to see this wasn't posted here yet.

 

I have to agree. Letting Mauer go was the best move this team could have made for so many reasons this year. As I said in another thread, I am more convinced than ever that for a variety of reasons he was a part of the problem, and not part of the solution with this club.

 

 

[nicksaviking]

I think Souhan needs to check his math. I agree Mauer wasn't helping the team win, but they didn't sink all of Mauer's contract back into this team. Even if one were to add Mauer's $23M salary to the current payroll, it's still short of where it was last year. And no one in their right mind would have given Mauer $23M to play this year anyway.

 

This team got better for what looks like a lot of reasons. The only one of which at all related to Mauer is that CJ Cron is a better ballplayer than Mauer was. Which means the title could have just as easily have been 'Brian Dozier is Twins' 2019 MVP' since Jonathan Schoop is better than he was too.

 

Ugh, I don't get any kind of warm fuzzies when I think of Joe Mauer, but I swear, Jim Souhan is among the worst trolls on this site.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I think Souhan needs to check his math. I agree Mauer wasn't helping the team win, but they didn't sink all of Mauer's contract back into this team. Even if one were to add Mauer's $23M salary to the current payroll, it's still short of where it was last year. And no one in their right mind would have given Mauer $23M to play this year anyway.

 

This team got better for what looks like a lot of reasons. The only one of which at all related to Mauer is that CJ Cron is a better ballplayer than he was the last several years. Which means the title could have just as easily have been 'Brian Dozier is Twins' 2019 MVP' since Jonathan Schoop is better than he was too.

Apples to apples they are only $9 million below last year's payroll.

[Vanimal46]

There's so many better outlets to read Twins articles... Including here! Let's not give this hack a second of attention.

[Doomtints]

Losing Molitor helped the team MUCH more than losing Mauer.

[ken]

I think this year has shown our obsession with OBP and the value Mauer brought because of it was way overrated. Just like pitch to contact,it took a long time for the Twins to update their approach.

[nicksaviking]

 

Apples to apples they are only $9 million below last year's payroll.

 

I see them at 113M this year and 132M to end last year. So I guess I see Mauer on top of this club as a 4M increase. Assuming someone was foolish enough to give Mauer $23M to play this year.

[nicksaviking]

 

Losing Molitor helped the team MUCH more than losing Mauer.

 

The polite way to say this is gaining Baldelli helped this team MUCH more.

[Don Walcott]

Isn't Mauer retired? Maybe Souhan should go after John McCain now.

[USAFChief]

Mauer was a drag on the team for several years, no matter how beloved he might be.

 

Lots of money, guaranteed playing time at or near the top of the order, with little production, and an inability or unwillingness to try anything different.

 

Zero leadership.

 

He's not missed.

[Mr. Brooks]

I see them at 113M this year and 132M to end last year. So I guess I see Mauer on top of this club as a 4M increase. Assuming someone was foolish enough to give Mauer $23M to play this year.

You are comparing opening day 25 man salaries this year to year end total 40 man salaries last year. That's not apples to apples.

[ken]

The polite way to say this is gaining Baldelli helped this team MUCH more.

I think gaining Polanco for the start of the season is probably helping the team more.

[SwainZag]

People just cannot stop going after Mauer.  I am sure Mauer is the reason why this team is better with a great Odorizzi and Perez and the fact the pitching overall has been MUCH better than it has in years.  The reason why Buxton and Polonco are actually on the field and playing like All-Stars.  

 

The Twins hit .250/.318/.405 as a team last season.  This year they are .272/.340/.516.  The addition of Cron has certainly helped the slugging, there is a lot going on with this team that is not Mauer related.

 

I am sure his "non-leadership" qualities not being on the team has really pushed this team to the next level.            

 

/rant

[Mr. Brooks]

People just cannot stop going after Mauer. I am sure Mauer is the reason why this team is better with a great Odorizzi and Perez and the fact the pitching overall has been MUCH better than it has in years. The reason why Buxton and Polonco are actually on the field and playing like All-Stars.

 

The Twins hit .250/.318/.405 as a team last season. This year they are .272/.340/.516. The addition of Cron has certainly helped the slugging, there is a lot going on with this team that is not Mauer related.

 

I am sure his "non-leadership" qualities not being on the team has really pushed this team to the next level.

 

/rant

We don't know what Mauer (nor any other player) brought to the clubhouse, nor will anyone who isn't in there everyday ever know. That goes both ways, to those suggesting that we're better without it, and to those rudely mocking those that do.

[PseudoSABR]

Trash article.

[TheBoofIsLoose]

I never fully understood the lack of leadership criticism Mauer received. From what came out last year around his retirement it sounds like he was more of a behind the scenes guy, organizing ball giveaways after games, showing up every day prepared, setting examples, etc. No one is ever going to accuse Mauer of being "rah-rah" out on the field or in an interview, even if it would have been nice to see once in a while, but not every leader needs to be Rudy-esque. There must be some reason his teammates universally praised him and called him a leader on their team once he retired.

[Mr. Brooks]

I never fully understood the lack of leadership criticism Mauer received. From what came out last year around his retirement it sounds like he was more of a behind the scenes guy, organizing ball giveaways after games, showing up every day prepared, setting examples, etc. No one is ever going to accuse Mauer of being "rah-rah" out on the field or in an interview, even if it would have been nice to see once in a while, but not every leader needs to be Rudy-esque. There must be some reason his teammates universally praised him and called him a leader on their team once he retired.

I won't criticize leadership and locker room presence, almost ever, because we never know.

 

But, that is what teammates do when the press is watching, no matter what. Adrian Peterson was also universally praised by his teammates, even after it was discovered that he beats toddlers with tree branches.

 

And, no, I'm not accusing Joe Mauer of doing anything like that. From everything I know, he seems like a great person. I'm just saying that how his teammates present him while the press are watching doesn't mean much.

[SwainZag]

 

We don't know what Mauer (nor any other player) brought to the clubhouse, nor will anyone who isn't in there everyday ever know. That goes both ways, to those suggesting that we're better without it, and to those rudely mocking those that do.

 

Generally when a guy has been in a clubhouse going on two decades a couple things will come out if he is a bad teammate or bad clubhouse guy or generally not a good guy to have around.  Those things are virtually non-existent.  I apologize if my post came off as rude, but the Mauer bashing around these parts over the years reached an unbelievable level, at least IMO.

[Mr. Brooks]

Generally when a guy has been in a clubhouse going on two decades a couple things will come out if he is a bad teammate or bad clubhouse guy or generally not a good guy to have around. Those things are virtually non-existent. I apologize if my post came off as rude, but the Mauer bashing around these parts over the years reached an unbelievable level, at least IMO.

There is a lot of room between bad teammate/clubhouse cancer, and great leader. I don't think anyone here has ever accused him of the former. It's possible to be a great teammate and guy, while possessing minimal leadership abilities.

I've worked with a lot of people who were outstanding workers, and liked by most, but didn't have the ability to lead.

Kirby Puckett, on the other hand, it seems was a fairly awful human being, but by all accounts possessed that rare ability to inspire people to follow him.

 

Again, I don't know if that's the case with Mauer. I'm not trying to suggest he wasn't a good leader, I just don't know.

And I agree, the Mauer bashing has been over the top over the years. But, people adamantly defending him against any and all criticisms have been over the top as well.

I'm glad Mauer retired, not because I didn't like him as a player, but because you had to walk on eggshells when he was playing. Any attempt to discuss his legitimate flaws automatically got you painted into the "Mauer hater" corner. Or, the topic got hijacked by those that wanted to pile on Mauer unfairly, depending on who got there first.

[Steve Penz]

Souhan seems to want to take any chance to toss negativity towards Mauer.    I am happy he got a nice send-off.    We can enjoy the current success without dumping on him.    Isn't Souhan the same person who challenged Mauer's toughness as he was suffering from a brain injury?    That says plenty.    Moving on.....

[Seth Stohs]

Read the article last night and very intentionally did not post it here.

 

Not because I completely disagree with it (I do completely disagree with it), I enjoy posting articles here that I don't necessarily agree with. I just think it's bad. It's lazy. 

 

There's no salary cap. Mauer's contract didn't stop them from spending. They spent on Nolasco. Hughes. SantanaWillingham. Others. 

 

Some say this team is better without Mauer. That may be true on its own and has nothing to do with his salary. He's 36 years old and has over a decade on his knees. He also had to work to prepare every day for 2-3 hours before everyone else just to be ready to compete. He retired a solid player and could have kept playing, but obviously in a diminshed role. Again, that has nothing to do with his salary.

 

This article takes credit away from the front office, scouts and analysts who put in their time and signed the right guys. They believed in the right guys. 

 

It takes credit away from the players themselves who are playing great and deserve the recognition. 

 

Lats year, Levine said something to the effect that last year, the players performed at sommething like 9% of their projection. Buxton, Sano, Dozier... I mean, could go on about guys that didn't play like they should. Well, this year, I am guessing that they are getting nearly 100% of their projection. The players are. 

 

Another Souhan Mauer Bashing article just completely unnecessary. Just a bad, bad article...

 

And I'm not a Souhan hater. I actually do enjoy some of his writing. This article... not so much. 

 

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Souhan seems to want to take any chance to toss negativity towards Mauer. I am happy he got a nice send-off. We can enjoy the current success without dumping on him. Isn't Souhan the same person he challenged Mauer's toughness as he was suffering from a brain injury. That says plenty. Moving on.....

Correct, I've been active in this thread, but I must make the disclaimer that I haven't, and won't read the article, because Jim Souhan.

[Mr. Brooks]

Read the article last night and very intentionally did not post it here.

 

Not because I completely disagree with it (I do completely disagree with it), I enjoy posting articles here that I don't necessarily agree with. I just think it's bad. It's lazy.

 

There's no salary cap. Mauer's contract didn't stop them from spending. They spent on Nolasco. Hughes. SantanaWillingham. Others.

 

Some say this team is better without Mauer. That may be true on its own and has nothing to do with his salary. He's 36 years old and has over a decade on his knees. He also had to work to prepare every day for 2-3 hours before everyone else just to be ready to compete. He retired a solid player and could have kept playing, but obviously in a diminshed role. Again, that has nothing to do with his salary.

 

This article takes credit away from the front office, scouts and analysts who put in their time and signed the right guys. They believed in the right guys.

 

It takes credit away from the players themselves who are playing great and deserve the recognition.

 

Lats year, Levine said something to the effect that last year, the players performed at sommething like 9% of their projection. Buxton, Sano, Dozier... I mean, could go on about guys that didn't play like they should. Well, this year, I am guessing that they are getting nearly 100% of their projection. The players are.

 

Another Souhan Mauer Bashing article just completely unnecessary. Just a bad, bad article...

 

And I'm not a Souhan hater. I actually do enjoy some of his writing. This article... not so much.

I think this is a great post Seth, and agree with much of it.

I do disagree on a couple of points.

First, the Twins FO does have a salary cap. I'm not ripping ownership, all mid market teams have one.

 

Secondly, those questioning Mauer's leadership would probably point to the underperformance of other players as a point in their favor. Isn't that the whole point of leadership, to attempt to get everyone's max ability to come out?

[Danchat]

Boy, why do our opinions on Mauer have to be either love or hate? Yes, Joe was overpaid and he wasn't worth the money, but that didn't make him a horrible player and he contributed the best he could in the late part of his career. The fact that fans point at Joe's soft-spoken nature and accuse him of being a bad leader baffles me as well.

 

That also doesn't mean moving on from him was the wrong move - the Twins found a great replacement who can defend the position to a similar standard Joe did, but now with power! Moving on was the right move, and he got the perfect send-off last September.

 

Souhan's article is just another trolling/bait article that's just there to be controversial.

[jkcarew]

On points that his (lack of) offensive production at first base was hurting the Twins for years...it’s a fact. On all other points...I don’t care.

[DocBauer]

Honestly, this is a post that may die quickly. Maybe it should, IDK. But I am compelled to comment.

 

1] Joe Mauer was arguably/inarguably one of the best, most complete catchers of all time. He did things never been done before and obviously haven't been done since. He was signed to a big contract. So what? 90-99% of the fan base would have brought out pitchforks and torches had he not been re-signed. In what universe did Mauer, or anyone else, ask for or expect the series of concussions that robbed him of his position or some of his skills?

 

2] Mauer re-invented himself as a good glove caliber/worthy 1B. He still hit rather well and got OB at a high percentage with limited power. He was almost certainly miscast as a #3 hitter after his move and probably should have been a 1-2 hitter. Production-wise, he didn't play with a lineup anywhere close to a caliber of production as the Twins have now. Additionally, 1B doesn't HAVE to be a power slot if you have power and production elsewhere. For instance, there was a time where there was little to no power from CF/2B/SS. That's not the case, nor has been, for a few years now. It's like saying Keith Hernandez and Mark Grace, just a couple examples, were bums because they weren't classic power hitters.

 

* We can't praise Cron, which I have, for his great defense and then not acknowledge Mauer's great defense being important.

 

3] The whole leadership issue is ridiculous! Joe was, and is, a class guy who has never had a harsh word spoken about him EVER from a coach or teammate. The only time he probably ever "rocked the boat" was a time he asked for chocolate milk instead of standard 2% through a lunch line! Some guys lead by example, just being a great teammate/co-worker, and being professional and professionally prepared daily. Just because he was paid $20+M, why was he supposed to be a down and dirty, rah-rah, climb on my back leader?

 

4] Lastly, the financial issue. Start of the season, mid-season, and of season, whatever measurement of payroll you use, the 2019 payroll is below 2018. Good and wise additions have lead to a much better team this season, along with internal improvement, coaching changes, etc. This is because Mauer's contract is off the books??? Dozier and Santana made as much or slightly more than Mauer did last season. It is just as much their expired contracts that lead to various signings to help build this club, not Mauer's.

 

It was time for Joe to move on, as well as the Twins. But any discussion his being gone/retired is any reason for the Twins improvement is just ridiculous!

[jctwins]

 

Read the article last night and very intentionally did not post it here.

 

Not because I completely disagree with it (I do completely disagree with it), I enjoy posting articles here that I don't necessarily agree with. I just think it's bad. It's lazy. 

 

There's no salary cap. Mauer's contract didn't stop them from spending. They spent on Nolasco. Hughes. SantanaWillingham. Others. 

 

Some say this team is better without Mauer. That may be true on its own and has nothing to do with his salary. He's 36 years old and has over a decade on his knees. He also had to work to prepare every day for 2-3 hours before everyone else just to be ready to compete. He retired a solid player and could have kept playing, but obviously in a diminshed role. Again, that has nothing to do with his salary.

 

This article takes credit away from the front office, scouts and analysts who put in their time and signed the right guys. They believed in the right guys. 

 

It takes credit away from the players themselves who are playing great and deserve the recognition. 

 

Lats year, Levine said something to the effect that last year, the players performed at sommething like 9% of their projection. Buxton, Sano, Dozier... I mean, could go on about guys that didn't play like they should. Well, this year, I am guessing that they are getting nearly 100% of their projection. The players are. 

 

Another Souhan Mauer Bashing article just completely unnecessary. Just a bad, bad article...

 

And I'm not a Souhan hater. I actually do enjoy some of his writing. This article... not so much. 

 

What isn't here is as much of an editorial statement as what is here, and I think any good forum has room for conflict and difference of opinion. One of the reasons I'm not as active here as I used to be is the slant toward positive coverage.

 

I think it's an interesting topic, and certainly one that allows for a wide range of views.

 

 

[Seth Stohs]

 

What isn't here is as much of an editorial statement as what is here, and I think any good forum has room for conflict and difference of opinion. One of the reasons I'm not as active here as I used to be is the slant toward positive coverage.

 

I think it's an interesting topic, and certainly one that allows for a wide range of views.

 

Fair enough... so it's probably good that someone else decided that the article was worthy of discussion. Like I said, I enjoy conversations about things I don't necessarily agree with. I enjoy it.

 

I just think that calling Mauer the 2019 MVP is way over the top and takes the credit away from people who deserve it. 

 

Also, yes, it's hard not to have a positive slant at the moment. But in recent days there have been articles on the team's weaknesses and other things that aren't quite as positive as a 34-16 record might warrant. 

[Riverbrian]

 

Read the article last night and very intentionally did not post it here.

 

Not because I completely disagree with it (I do completely disagree with it), I enjoy posting articles here that I don't necessarily agree with. I just think it's bad. It's lazy. 

 

There's no salary cap. Mauer's contract didn't stop them from spending. They spent on Nolasco. Hughes. SantanaWillingham. Others. 

 

Some say this team is better without Mauer. That may be true on its own and has nothing to do with his salary. He's 36 years old and has over a decade on his knees. He also had to work to prepare every day for 2-3 hours before everyone else just to be ready to compete. He retired a solid player and could have kept playing, but obviously in a diminshed role. Again, that has nothing to do with his salary.

 

This article takes credit away from the front office, scouts and analysts who put in their time and signed the right guys. They believed in the right guys. 

 

It takes credit away from the players themselves who are playing great and deserve the recognition. 

 

Lats year, Levine said something to the effect that last year, the players performed at sommething like 9% of their projection. Buxton, Sano, Dozier... I mean, could go on about guys that didn't play like they should. Well, this year, I am guessing that they are getting nearly 100% of their projection. The players are. 

 

Another Souhan Mauer Bashing article just completely unnecessary. Just a bad, bad article...

 

And I'm not a Souhan hater. I actually do enjoy some of his writing. This article... not so much. 

 

I'm not a hater either... but that will be the last Souhan article I will read.

 

He doesn't deserve to have another article read... or a full time job with a newspaper with a decent reputation. He clearly isn't qualified enough for legitimate commentary. 

 

Regular folks have a tendency to believe what they read. That is a responsibility for the professional. 

 

Apparently the Startribune doesn't concern itself with such things anymore. I'll have to make a habit of seeing if the pioneerpress is more... professional. 

 

[dgwills]

Pretty dumb article. Are the Twins better without Joe and his contract? Of course. That's why he retired. I looked it up and that's pretty much why all players retire in sports. Excluding Barry Sanders and maybe 2 or three other players.

Is losing Joe the reason the Twins are so much better this year. Absolutely not. The Twins are playing better at virtually every position this year. It's not because of Joe's lack of leadership either. It's largely due to health, younger players developing, better management, and momentum. When a team is doing well they generally continue to to well. If anything leadership is needed when things are going badly.