So....Time to make a call to Kimbrel?

[Vanimal46]

Fair enough, and I do.

 

But I don't think the way to build a sustainable winner is to trade off your good pieces.

 

And those were not my seeds, officer.

There's plenty of time to build for the future, in the future... At the time of the Pressly trade and heading into 2019, we knew the division is weak, and Cleveland isn't impossible to beat. We don't know what the division will look like in 2021/22/23 etc.

 

I'm on your side in this debate Chief.

[USAFChief]

 

The Twins don't fix Ryan Pressley. 

Well of course not. He didn't need fixing.

[USAFChief]

 

Teams aren't trading good prospects for bad players though.

They most certainly do. We traded what's-his-name for Matt Capps.

[nicksaviking]

Why isn’t this someone’s profile pic yet?

[Mr. Brooks]

What year are they trying to win? Because if not this year, why is Gibson on the roster? Either they are rebuilding, and not trying to win, or not.

 

I'm reading a lot of posts here saying they aren't trying to contend this year. When will they?

I think they are trying to win every year starting this year.

I want it to be both. Keep feeding the pipeline even while trying to win. That's how you build for sustainable success as a mid budget team, IMO.

[Jham]

Why isn’t this someone’s profile pic yet?

Agree. Actually one of my all time favorite posts.

[TheLeviathan]

My god...the false dilemma overload is off the charts in here.  

 

In July of last year it was time to think of the future because the present was sunk.  Pressley had limited team control and someone came knocking with a strong offer.  The Twins took that deal and the outcome of it is not clear.

 

We knew (I assume the FO was aware as well) that the team had substantial room to spend money and an offseason market that was rich in potential bullpen arms.  The team acted like contenders throughout the offseason adding players that are win-now options.

 

They just, inexplicably, didn't sign any relievers.  That's the mistake.  How anyone can be "on the side of" the idea the Twins killed all chance of contending because they traded Ryan @#(%$#(@% Pressley (in a lost season) is off the wall crazy.

 

Why are we even playing baseball games?  The Astros have Ryan Pressley.  Season over for everyone else.  I guess.  I'm going to start building him a church I think.  Join us or starve and lose baseball games.  Pressley Be Praised.  (This paragraph still isn't even in the top ten most ridiculous in this thread.  I'm trying though!)

[Mr. Brooks]

My god...the false dilemma overload is off the charts in here.

 

In July of last year it was time to think of the future because the present was sunk. Pressley had limited team control and someone came knocking with a strong offer. The Twins took that deal and the outcome of it is not clear.

 

We knew (I assume the FO was aware as well) that the team had substantial room to spend money and an offseason market that was rich in potential bullpen arms. The team acted like contenders throughout the offseason adding players that are win-now options.

 

They just, inexplicably, didn't sign any relievers. That's the mistake. How anyone can be "on the side of" the idea the Twins killed all chance of contending because they traded Ryan @#(%$#(@% Pressley is off the wall crazy.

 

Why are we even playing baseball games? The Astros have Ryan Pressley. Season over for everyone else. I guess. I'm going to start building him a church I think. Join us or starve and lose baseball games. Pressley Be Praised. (This paragraph still isn't even in the top ten most ridiculous in this thread. I'm trying though!)

Especially when at least one of the posters siding with Chief had criticized the previous FO for not selling high on a guy like Glen Perkins during a lost season.

[Mr. Brooks]

Why isn’t this someone’s profile pic yet?

Because it's so epic that it would be unfair to the other avatars.

Avatar mercy rule.

[djvang]

No. I would rather lose than watch that ridiculous Karate Kid thing he does.

[cardsfan]

Fans in other forums are asking same questions. 1 year deal.

[Mr. Brooks]

No. I would rather lose than watch that ridiculous Karate Kid thing he does.

He does a karate kid thing?

Ok, now I've changed my mind, I want him at any price.

[Mike Sixel]

I didn't hate the trade, I hate not filling the hole this off-season. I think I've made that clear. They needed at least two relief pitchers this year, probably three. But if you aren't trying to win this year, Gibson should have been traded, which I said all off-season.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

But it's not just a talking point, there rarely are any good free agent starting pitchers any more. Teams are extending the good ones and teams are getting smarter about recognizing the ones that make it to market but appear to be more smoke and mirrors.

 

I don't want to sign someone just to sign someone. I don't think Keuchel would be any good on the Twins, so to me it would appear to be window dressing only. The good teams are developing and extending their own starters these days, it's incumbent that the Twins start doing the same.

I was on the same page and didn’t think Keuchel would be good for the Twins either, but a hell of a lot better than Odorizzi, Pineda or Perez. I’m changing my mind.

 

The Twins lead the league in shifting 44% of plate appearances and “opponents have a .219 wOBA on ground balls against the Twins this season, fifth lowest in the American League.”

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/al-central-secret-weapons

 

It looks like the Twins are compensating well for perceived lack of range.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Teams aren't trading good prospects for bad players though.

Wilson Ramos for Matt Capps!?!?!?

[TheLeviathan]

 

I didn't hate the trade, I hate not filling the hole this off-season. I think I've made that clear. They needed at least two relief pitchers this year, probably three. But if you aren't trying to win this year, Gibson should have been traded, which I said all off-season.

 

Agreed, which is why all of these concerns come back to the same thing: they failed on the relief front this offseason.

 

The notion we doomed the 2019 pen when we traded Pressly is just silly.  We doomed it when we thought Parker was enough and everyone in this thread, so far as I can tell, agrees on that.  Where the disagreement starts is when we veer off that down some really bizarre lines of thinking.

[Jham]

Agreed, which is why all of these concerns come back to the same thing: they failed on the relief front this offseason.

 

The notion we doomed the 2019 pen when we traded Pressly is just silly. We doomed it when we thought Parker was enough and everyone in this thread, so far as I can tell, agrees on that. Where the disagreement starts is when we veer off that down some really bizarre lines of thinking.

But 1 of the reasons Parker's not enough is because we traded Presley...

 

If I trade in half of my 401k (presley) to fund a real estate investment (Alcala and Celestino) that's too good to pass up. Then I get laid off. You could say I didn't prepare well enough, and you'd be right. You could also say that I made the choice of investing in uncertain future returns knowing I might need the assets sooner rather than later and you'd also be right. But 1 indirectly led to the other. Maybe I have to sell my investment part way into a build and can only get 1/2 my investment back. Maybe I refinance my mortgage and end up paying an extra $150k for my home. Still probably better than losing my home. Kimbrel is our refinance. Missing the playoffs is foreclosure. We lose an entire year of competition and salary and potentially lose our equity in Cruz and Gibson all together.

[TheLeviathan]

 

But 1 of the reasons Parker's not enough is because we traded Presley...

If I trade in half of my 401k (presley) to fund a real estate investment (Alcala and Celestino) that's too good to pass up. Then I get laid off. You could say I didn't prepare well enough, and you'd be right. You could also say that I made the choice of investing in uncertain future returns knowing I might need the assets sooner rather than later and you'd also be right. But 1 indirectly led to the other. Maybe I have to sell my investment part way into a build and can only get 1/2 my investment back. Maybe I refinance my mortgage and end up paying an extra $150k for my home. Still probably better than losing my home. Kimbrel is our refinance. Missing the playoffs is foreclosure. We lose an entire year of competition and salary and potentially lose our equity in Cruz and Gibson all together.

 

Except, this scenario doesn't fit.  Getting laid off would be an unexpected event that you couldn't plan for.  That isn't this scenario.

 

If I had to rework your example, you sold your car for some stocks you think have a real chance to net you significant profit down the line.  You could do that because while you know the car is a nice car, you don't need it right now because gas prices are pretty much forcing you to accept the reality that carpooling is the way to go.  (See: 2018 was a lost cause) You also knew that in about six months you'd have ample opportunity to buy a new car to replace it.  As luck would have it, you also just managed to pay off your credit cards and have a ton of flexibility to sink into that new car.   Time goes by, you get through the car pool period of your life, and the day comes when all the shiny cars are available.  You have enough money to buy any car you want.  Several of them in fact.

 

And you buy one jalopy that is struggling to get you to work every day.  Yes, you miss your old car but here's the thing.....it ain't the only car that can get you to work.  You might miss it and it'd be nice to have, but you had a chance to purchase several other options.Now you're about to lose your job because you failed to invest when you had the opportunity and ability.

 

Yeah, you loved that Pressly you were driving (even though for years you swore it was garbage) but dammit it tuned up nice.  But it ain't the only car on the road man.  There were other options.  And you could have had ANY of them AND kept those stocks you really believe in.  Best of both worlds right?

[DocBauer]

The problem isn't trading Pressly, who I wish we had and wouldn't have traded. The potential on the return could be nice, but we are forecasting.

 

The problem is what did we do after trading Pressly.

 

We all know RP live in a volatile world. We have witnessed this recently with Reed. And it doesn't matter how many years you want to go back, or even comparing other teams, we've seen McPhail, Ryan, and even this FO find guys who were solid to great BP additions.

 

The problem is, even with the volatile nature of FA BP options, there is also good that comes with the bad. When there is an obvious need, you roll the dice a bit, take a chance, hope for the best if you will, and make that gamble. You sign 2 guys to contracts that aren't crazy. Let's say 1 turns out and the second is mediocre or a complete bust. That ONE ARM that turns out, with Rogers, the potential of May, a solid Parker, a re-surgent Hildy, etc, suddenly your whole pen is deeper and better.

 

At this point, barring a trade or a surprise signing of Kimbrel, you are counting on development of what you have, guys coming off the IL, development of Romero, maybe Eades, and piecing things together. Maybe with positive results!

 

Recent reports have Kimbrel lowering his years and numbers. Even still, is he the answer? I don't know and won't say he is or isn't. What I do know is I like a lot about this team. I like so much what this FO has done and set in motion. What I don't like is the approach the FO took in regard to opportunity available in regard to the bullpen. Last time I checked, you hit on one and miss on one, you are hitting .500. I'd take that any day!

[USAFChief]

Agreed, which is why all of these concerns come back to the same thing: they failed on the relief front this offseason.

 

The notion we doomed the 2019 pen when we traded Pressly is just silly. We doomed it when we thought Parker was enough and everyone in this thread, so far as I can tell, agrees on that. Where the disagreement starts is when we veer off that down some really bizarre lines of thinking.

The original point is that the Pressly trade was a bad idea, regardless how the return ends uo.

 

Can you at least stick to arguing against the points made, rather than inventing extreme strawmen to shoot down?

 

Trading their best bullpen piece was shortsighted, regardless what they may or may not have done this winter, and regardless if Alcala is in the 2023 rotation.

 

Decisions should be judged on what's known at the time of the decision. That decision was a bad one then, remains one today, and will stay a bad decision 5 years from now.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The original point is that the Pressly trade was a bad idea, regardless how the return ends uo.

 

It doesn't seem to make sense for anyone to discuss this with you.  You have so much bitterness from those decisions you are not capable of making reasonable arguments.  Hence you arguing that even if Alcala becomes a HOFer they lose the trade.

 

I'm not exaggerating anything.  Your stance on this is silly at it's core.  The only misconstruing that is happening is all these people (who normally applaud deals where we shed veterans in losing seasons, yet here...the exact opposite!) lining up to put lipstick on the pigs you're tossing out. 

 

I'll stick with Jham, he appears willing to stay within the realm of rational discussion on the how the Twins could build the 2019 pen.  I will agree with him that moving Pressly adds to the shopping list and makes it harder.  But it is not, in and of itself, a damning blow.  Nor should it be seen as such.  You are stuck in your own feelings about last July.  If Alacla someday has a Twins cap on his HOF bust we will love that deal.  To suggest anything but that is just....plain...absurd.

[killertwinfan]

 

Yeah you would think if he was willing to take a 3 year or lower deal, he would have done it by now so I completely understand the argument (same for Keuchel). Aside from those arms, I think the frustration more so lies with the fact that FO did absolutely nothing to address our biggest need.  I don't post often but concur that I too was frustrated seeing quality arms go for pennies on the dollar this offseason, and we did not partake in any way.  At this point though we are either stuck with what we got or forced to trade prospects to address the problem. 

 

For those that are on the sign Kimbrel bandwagon, would you give him 4 years at say 17-18M per (which may even be under what he is requesting)? 

 

I read his original asking prices was 6/100.  Teams would prolly regret years 3 and 4 if they sign him. That being said the Twins better do something.  

 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Except, this scenario doesn't fit. Getting laid off would be an unexpected event that you couldn't plan for. That isn't this scenario.

 

If I had to rework your example, you sold your car for some stocks you think have a real chance to net you significant profit down the line. You could do that because while you know the car is a nice car, you don't need it right now because gas prices are pretty much forcing you to accept the reality that carpooling is the way to go. (See: 2018 was a lost cause) You also knew that in about six months you'd have ample opportunity to buy a new car to replace it. As luck would have it, you also just managed to pay off your credit cards and have a ton of flexibility to sink into that new car. Time goes by, you get through the car pool period of your life, and the day comes when all the shiny cars are available. You have enough money to buy any car you want. Several of them in fact.

 

And you buy one jalopy that is struggling to get you to work every day. Yes, you miss your old car but here's the thing.....it ain't the only car that can get you to work. You might miss it and it'd be nice to have, but you had a chance to purchase several other options.Now you're about to lose your job because you failed to invest when you had the opportunity and ability.

 

Yeah, you loved that Pressly you were driving (even though for years you swore it was garbage) but dammit it tuned up nice. But it ain't the only car on the road man. There were other options. And you could have had ANY of them AND kept those stocks you really believe in. Best of both worlds right?

depreciable asset is more appropriate than appreciable. Relievers only have so many pitches to throw, once they’ve used them up, there’s none left. They don’t get more valuable, the more they pitch.

[diehardtwinsfan]

not to get this thread back on topic... but I don't think anyone is changing anyone's mind at this point...

 

This was on mlb.com

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/craig-kimbrel-rumors-c297610312

 

Specifically, they speculated that Kimbrel may be open to 3/39 type deal. I seem to remember us having a very similar offer on the table earlier this year. 

 

One can hope I guess.

[USAFChief]

 

not to get this thread back on topic... but I don't think anyone is changing anyone's mind at this point...

 

This was on mlb.com

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/craig-kimbrel-rumors-c297610312

 

Specifically, they speculated that Kimbrel may be open to 3/39 type deal. I seem to remember us having a very similar offer on the table earlier this year. 

 

One can hope I guess.

It should be noted nowhere in this article are the Minnesota Twins mentioned.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Specifically, they speculated that Kimbrel may be open to 3/39 type deal. I seem to remember us having a very similar offer on the table earlier this year. 

Are you referring to our offer to Grandal?

 

Or this about Kimbrel?

 

 

FWIW, nobody seemed to believe that report. MLBTR never picked it up, for example.

 

The guy is a "freelance TV sportscaster" from Atlanta. To the extent that it might have had any basis in reality, I suppose it could have been an attempt by someone in/near Kimbrel's camp to get that kind of offer from one of his preferred destinations.

 

As we are seeing right now, even after it's been widely reported that he's willing to accept 3 years, there doesn't seem to be any rush of offers. Even Atlanta, his hometown team, who just lost their closer for the season -- they still don't seem to have any interest in Kimbrel on a 3 year deal.

[howieramone2]

 

What year are they trying to win? Because if not this year, why is Gibson on the roster? Either they are rebuilding, and not trying to win, or not.

I'm reading a lot of posts here saying they aren't trying to contend this year. When will they?

I'm reading a lot of posts here that say they are trying to contend. I read recently read on MLBTR we have a 52% chance of making the playoffs and 28% chance of winning the division.

[howieramone2]

 

I didn't hate the trade, I hate not filling the hole this off-season. I think I've made that clear. They needed at least two relief pitchers this year, probably three. But if you aren't trying to win this year, Gibson should have been traded, which I said all off-season.

OK, I get it. Since they are trying to win, Gibson shouldn't have been traded. 

 

For those with long memories, you may recall we had members who wanted both Gibson and Pressly DFA prior to 2018.

[howieramone2]

 

The original point is that the Pressly trade was a bad idea, regardless how the return ends uo.

Can you at least stick to arguing against the points made, rather than inventing extreme strawmen to shoot down?

Trading their best bullpen piece was shortsighted, regardless what they may or may not have done this winter, and regardless if Alcala is in the 2023 rotation.

Decisions should be judged on what's known at the time of the decision. That decision was a bad one then, remains one today, and will stay a bad decision 5 years from now.

Selling high is always is good move. Always.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Selling high is always is good move.

Not really, no. The Astros selling high on MLB players would have been foolish last July. Obviously that's an extreme example, but given our roster and 2019 control over Pressly, and the still uncertain future of Alcala/Celestino, it's not yet clear that "selling high" was the right choice in our situation either.

 

Edit to add: also, Pressly's value arguably hasn't dropped much yet either, if at all (his performance gains have solidified, although obviously the 2018 pennant race has passed). Especially if you consider his contract extension, I suspect his value is no worse and could be a bit better for clubs who weren't weren't really contenders in July 2018 but expect to be in 2019 and beyond (i.e. the Twins!).