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Dear Derek Falvey...Two things happened last night.


Riverbrian

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Posted

One more thought on flexibility. It may result in moving on from a player or two who refuse to buy in. Frankly flexibility requires inflexibility. Meaning you can't allow certain players to refuse to participate, it will poison the system. The Sano Experiment was one such example. I didn't think the position fit him well, but we will actually never know. I have always believed that any idiot can catch a fly ball. But this requires you too actually attempt to catch one. There wasn't any evidence that Miguel put any effort into not only catching a fly ball, or even into preparing to catch one. He was a third baseman. Period. And wanted nothing to do with the OF. Sooner or later he will have to move to 1B or DH, or in a perfect world rotate between all three positions. How he handles that will go a long way towards defining his career, or lack thereof. That said, for flexibility to work, the manger really cannot play favorites, or allow the inmates to run the asylum.

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Posted

The problem is that the Twins have been a hide bound organization for quite some time clinging to old fashioned thinking.  This is in all areas of the organization, including the non-baseball operations.  This was also combined with ownership that was the most tight-wad in the major leagues.

Posted

I would like to know exactly how much "input" a manager such as Molitor allows a veteran player such as Dozier or Mauer to impact his moves. Something tells me way too much. Does Mauer refuse to play third, or RF? Natural spots for him it seems. And I am not sure Dozier could find any other spot but 2nd base on a baseball field he has been so entrenched there. Last night I would have really thought Mauer should have moved to third, it's simply another corner position. And it would have kept Morrison at 1B, and Rosario in LF. All optimum positions in this switch. This doesn't mean I am against Rosario in the IF, but less disruption is still better. I also would have long looked for a chance for Rosario to play RF with that arm, when RG was in that outfield with his non arm. When you get down to the present Twins roster, there is some flexibility available on a given day, but either Molitor doesn't have the imagination to consider it, or the cajones to advance it. I simply never get the impression that Paul Molitor is in charge of the Twins dugout. But I do get the impression that the veterans have way to much say in things and that makes change slow.

5 years ago maybe. Little long in the tooth for RF for sure. Not sure he has the reflexes for 3b anymore either. Maybe when he was initially moved from catcher.

Posted

 

When I coached little league many years ago, I was the pitching coach.  I bought a videotape of Nolan Ryan teaching kids to pitch.  At practice I asked for volunteers, and all 12 players wanted to learn to pitch.  By the end of the season we had a bullpen of 11 players, and every player got to pitch in a game.

Count yourself lucky if you have more that a few kids that can throw a strike. I've been an assistant coach in little league, and I've never seen more than six kids out on a team that could throw 3 of 5 balls over the plate, which you must do to avoid musical walks. But then I grew up in Minneapolis and coached after the great suburban migration. City kids don't tend to get a lot of early coaching. 

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Posted

 

Count yourself lucky if you have more that a few kids that can throw a strike. I've been an assistant coach in little league, and I've never seen more than six kids out on a team that could throw 3 of 5 balls over the plate, which you must do to avoid musical walks. But then I grew up in Minneapolis and coached after the great suburban migration. City kids don't tend to get a lot of early coaching. 

I coached in Beverly Hills and the incoming talent level was low. We had one player from Russia who had never played baseball. The key was doing all the things Nolan Ryan taught, plus repetition at every practice. Every player got about 10 minutes at every practice. And they all pitched out of the stretch -- I didn't teach the windup.

Posted

Brian, I agree with aspects of your point but you keep going back to the shortstop argument... but it's a terrible example to use for positional flexibility.

 

Prospects are kept at short and centerfield as long as possible because they're far more valuable at those positions than anywhere else on the field. It's a matter of attrition. Play short at every level until you prove you cannot play short. Play center at every level until you prove you cannot play center.

 

Dozier and Plouffe, two of your primary examples, are very good case studies why this happens. If either one sticks at short, they are immensely more valuable than they are at second or third. In their respective cases, the front office determined that Dozier had range but no arm. That forced a move to second base and he did well. On the other hand, Plouffe had no range but a cannon. The front office moved him to third as a result and he did pretty well for a couple of years.

 

I'm all for positional flexibility and Rosario is probably a pretty good example of how that can be exploited to a team's benefit. But those players are pretty rare, I think... you don't make those players, you draft them and even then, you're going to fail a lot of the time. If a player can't stick at short, he can't stick at short. That's the end of the discussion. But that doesn't mean you're going to find a particularly valuable place to put that player, it likely means you have to slide downhill to a lesser position and the net gain is little or nothing.

Posted

Nobody has mentioned Cuddy yet. He had plenty of position flexibility and a team first mentality. I am pretty sure he would have put catchers gear on if needed. 

 

Maybe he should be hired in the minors to coach :)  Get the gang back together!!

Posted

 

Nobody has mentioned Cuddy yet. He had plenty of position flexibility and a team first mentality. I am pretty sure he would have put catchers gear on if needed. 

 

Maybe he should be hired in the minors to coach :)  Get the gang back together!!

Cuddyer's biggest problem is that he wasn't good at any position. Sure, he was willing to play and kudos to him for that but he was bad everywhere on the field.

 

In the age of defensive metrics, positional flexibility isn't something you just conjure through eagerness and team spirit. You can easily do more damage by moving a guy around and losing runs defensively than you gain by putting a good hitter anywhere on the field.

Posted

   I posted before that my Dad was a minor league catcher. I am not sure if this was for all of the 12 years he played pro baseball but for at least several of them the catcher who wasn't starting and the bench coach sat with a "prospect" or somebody between them. For 9 innings it was a rapid fire question and expect an answer session about all the nuances of the game. Everything was covered from defensive positioning of all 7 guys that can move to what pitch to expect, bunt, hit and run, fly ball where does the outfielder throw? Anything and everything that you could throw at somebody as fast as you could think it with no thought about a specific position, just trying to get the guys to know the whole game and everything that goes into it and what thought should go into any decision from anybody involved with it. 

 

   I would strongly encourage that to be adopted in every minor league team, regardless of players. Even if you are a left handed version of Sano who is stuck at first base knowing what to expect without a computer to analyze it for you will not hurt a bit. And by the way Dad made one hell of a coach later on.

Posted

I was going to mention Cuddyer, as well. His ability to move around helped, although he wasn’t a Gold Glover anywhere.

Mr. Twin, Harmon Killebrew moved off first base when Vic Power was acquired. He played left field at least one year and played third frequently at least for a few years.

Posted

Another position change that happened for the Twins was Carew from second to first, although I don't think he played second at all after he moved to first.

 

In the era of large bullpens and small benches, I have thought the optimum situation would be to have four players available to play three spots, grouped something like this: Group one--catcher, first base, DH. Group 2--Second, short, third and Group 3--Left field, center field and right field. With the right mixture of versatility and handedness for hitting, all of the position players could be at least partially platooned, get adequate rest and injuries could be covered. A thirteenth position play could be a play everywhere guy who could catch like Austadillo or perhaps Chris Herrman.

Posted

 

I coached in Beverly Hills and the incoming talent level was low. We had one player from Russia who had never played baseball. The key was doing all the things Nolan Ryan taught, plus repetition at every practice. Every player got about 10 minutes at every practice. And they all pitched out of the stretch -- I didn't teach the windup.

Agreed on pitching from the stretch. Full wind-ups do little for a kid that needs to throw strikes above all else. We also did basic throwing and fielding drills using techniques from wherever. We took a park board class in teaching baseball basics. Hitting from tees, whiffle balls, pitching machines to throw pop ups, whatever we could think of. My favorite was teaching how to steal bases. 

Posted

Another position change that happened for the Twins was Carew from second to first, although I don't think he played second at all after he moved to first.

 

In the era of large bullpens and small benches, I have thought the optimum situation would be to have four players available to play three spots, grouped something like this: Group one--catcher, first base, DH. Group 2--Second, short, third and Group 3--Left field, center field and right field. With the right mixture of versatility and handedness for hitting, all of the position players could be at least partially platooned, get adequate rest and injuries could be covered. A thirteenth position play could be a play everywhere guy who could catch like Austadillo or perhaps Chris Herrman.

Carew moved to first because he tore his knee to shreds when someone attempted to break up a double play.

Posted

There have been many instances of this in the past - it is not all that new school.  Elston Howard was both a catcher and a left fielder for the Yankees during their dominance decade and Gil McDougal was his infield equivalent playing everyday, but at 3B, SS, 2B.  Yogi Berra caught and played OF and even played a game at 3B and 1B.

 

Killebrew played 1B, 3B, and Outfield.  Stan Musial was both 1B and OF.   

 

And some guy named Ruth was both P and Outfielder (Ohtani, but much better).

 

http://brysholm.blogspot.com/2013/06/multi-position-regulars.html  

 

The Twins had Escobar, Adrianza, Motter, and Astudillo to do this, but that versatility is not part of every player's DNA.  Overall you want the best fielder at every position and hope they are also the best hitter of the group.  

 

This is not old school versus new school, it is the type of player you have - a Molitor would be great for us with his versatility as a player.  Or a Pete Rose.  Or Cesar Tovar.  And it is the type of manager that you have.  And what your lineup looks like.  If you have the positions filled with the best players the versatility comes with injury.  Looking at the Twins team Rosario is the only one, besides our utility guy Adrianza, who I could see doing this, but when the roster is managed properly do we gain by putting Rosario at a position where he is less capable, perhaps more prone to injury and then fill his position with a lesser player?

Posted

 

Brian, I agree with aspects of your point but you keep going back to the shortstop argument... but it's a terrible example to use for positional flexibility.

 

Prospects are kept at short and centerfield as long as possible because they're far more valuable at those positions than anywhere else on the field. It's a matter of attrition. Play short at every level until you prove you cannot play short. Play center at every level until you prove you cannot play center.

 

Dozier and Plouffe, two of your primary examples, are very good case studies why this happens. If either one sticks at short, they are immensely more valuable than they are at second or third. In their respective cases, the front office determined that Dozier had range but no arm. That forced a move to second base and he did well. On the other hand, Plouffe had no range but a cannon. The front office moved him to third as a result and he did pretty well for a couple of years.

 

I'm all for positional flexibility and Rosario is probably a pretty good example of how that can be exploited to a team's benefit. But those players are pretty rare, I think... you don't make those players, you draft them and even then, you're going to fail a lot of the time. If a player can't stick at short, he can't stick at short. That's the end of the discussion. But that doesn't mean you're going to find a particularly valuable place to put that player, it likely means you have to slide downhill to a lesser position and the net gain is little or nothing.

 

They are terrible examples of position flexibility and were used to show how terrible the Twins are at identifying talent, developing it and creating flexibility.  

 

However... you have raised even more concerns.

 

If they are keeping players at SS and CF as long as possible to increase value, that would explain why we have produced so many top quality SS's and CF's.  :)

 

OK... so here is where we now stand.

 

1. In 2016 Wilfredo Tovar was our SS at Rochester and Jorge Polanco was our 2B. Tovar was signed to a minor league deal after being cleared out of the Mets organization and Jorge Polanco was rated our 4th best prospect.

 

2. At the Major league level in 2016. Brian Dozier was locked down at 2B playing 151 games while the Twins were rolling with the Eduardo's at SS. Escobar was the opening day starter. SS would have to be identified by anybody as the quickest path to the majors for our 4th rated prospect whose bat was nearly MLB ready during one of our worst seasons ever. 

 

3. Despite your statement that they try to keep prospects at SS for as long as possible, despite his bat being nearly MLB ready, despite the bigger need at SS at the MLB level. The Twins move him to 2B right before he is called up as our everyday SS and he has remained at SS since.

 

4. December 9, 2010 the Twins trade JJ Hardy and Brendan Harris(both of whom played more innings at SS in MLB than any other position) to the Orioles for pitching. 

 

5. December 17, 2010 the Twins sign Tsuyoshi Nishioka to a 3 year contract

 

6. During spring training 2011, Gardenhire announces that Alexi Casilla will be the opening day SS moving him from 2B as Nishioka signed as the SS replacement for Hardy is moved to 2B. 

 

7. In Early May, Casilla is shifted back to 2B to make room for rookie Trevor Plouffe who had logged over 5,000 innings at SS in the Minor Leagues. Trevor plays 27 games at SS before Ron Gardenhire or someone discovers that he has a lack of range and issues at SS which wasn't discovered in 5,000 innings at SS in the minor leagues and he is replaced at SS by Tsuyoshi Nishioka who has now recovered from a leg injury suffered while demonstrating horrible technique turning a double play at 2B. 

 

8. Trevor Plouffe is sent back down to Rochester and all of sudden is no longer a SS moving into a utility type role. He spends 9 games at 2B, 7 games in the OF, 7 games at 1B and 1 game at 3B. When he returns to the big club... he is still no longer a SS but finishes off his rookie season with starting 15 games at 2B and 11 games in the OF playing no games at 3B. 

 

9. In 2012, Trevor Plouffe makes the team in a Utility role. Danny Valencia breaks camp the starting 3B and light hitting 38 year old Jamey Carroll is our starting SS. In early May, Valencia hitting .190 is demoted to Rochester, Trevor Plouffe moves to 3B (he played a total of 1 game at 3B in 2011 prior to the shift) and he shares time with Jamey Carroll while Brian Dozier is called up to play SS. Brian Dozier has logged 2486 innings at SS in the minors prior to his call up. 

 

10. Brian Dozier starts 81 games at SS commits 15 errors and is sent down to AAA replaced by Pedro Florimon. 

 

11. In 2013... Despite only 393 innings at 2B... Brian Dozier is magically named our opening day starting 2B and Trevor Plouffe is named our starting 3B. 

 

12. Trevor Plouffe who was being groomed as a utility player then plays everyday at the position despite average to below average production. He becomes so entrenched at the position that Miguel Sano is forced to move to RF to accomodate the average play of Trevor Plouffe. 

 

13. Brian Dozier is still the everyday 2B he has developed into one of the best 2B in the majors despite minimal experience at the position prior to claiming the full time job. While, the Twins groom Jorge Polanco to be our current SS by playing him at 2B in Rochester which places him directly behind Brian Dozier the one player who appears to be working out. 

 

My question is this: Just how bad are we at this?  

Posted

 

Carew moved to first because he tore his knee to shreds when someone attempted to break up a double play.

Carew suffered a severe knee injury turning a double play in 1970. It wasn't until 1976 that Rodney became a first baseman full time. While he gained back his running speed after the injury, it was said that he wasn't the same making the double play pivot after the injury.

Posted

 

Cuddyer's biggest problem is that he wasn't good at any position. Sure, he was willing to play and kudos to him for that but he was bad everywhere on the field.

 

In the age of defensive metrics, positional flexibility isn't something you just conjure through eagerness and team spirit. You can easily do more damage by moving a guy around and losing runs defensively than you gain by putting a good hitter anywhere on the field.

 

So what do you do with Cuddyer who isn't good at any position if you'd like to have his bat in the lineup? 

 

In 2005 Cuddyer was our starting 3B. In 2006 he was starting in RF where he remained until 2009. That 2009 team had Denard Span, Delmon Young, Jason Kubel and Carlos Gomez in addition to play OF. 

 

Meanwhile the 2009 team rolled with Joe Crede and Brendan Harris at 3B which was Cuddyer's original position. The following season Cuddyer was required to play 1B due to Morneau injury and the following season Cuddyer was required to play 2B due to the Nishioka, Casilla mess. 

 

Cuddyer was exactly the guy you can move around and get his bat in the lineup and the Twins did not unless injury necessity mothered the invention. 

 

Saying you can easily do more damage by moving a guy around and losing runs defensively then you gain is either suggesting a recklessness in deployment or you are ignoring that the Cubs, Dodgers, Astros and Brewers are already executing successfully. 

Posted

 

Hey Riv, good job.  My only divergence: I don't think Doze has the arm for 3b. 

 

He came up as a SS was my main point which was my way of saying that the Twins have failed in making the proper assessment if his arm is indeed a defensive issue. Much like they failed to properly assess Trevor Plouffe before him and Jorge Polanco after him. 

 

And the larger point still... The Twins were so bad at this assessment, they were basically slamming Brian Dozier and Trevor Plouffe into new positions at the MLB level instead of the minor league level and then locking them down long term removing any chance of them becoming position flexible when they just proved the ability to be position flexible by learning a brand new position in seconds at the MLB level. 

 

If Dozier is a 2B only guy... sobeit but I doubt it... I bet he would have made a nice LF'er if given the opportunity. If Dozier would have played some LF during his time here. He would have been much easier to trade today. 

 

 

Posted

Of course, the Twins were behind the curve (and still are in relation to the top teams in the AL) in regards to strikeout type pitchers meaning they needed better than average defense to have any chance because so many balls were put in play. I don’t know if the metrics agree, but I always felt 2b was his best position. It certainly was where he provided the biggest lift offensively.

Posted

The joy is that in a rebuild you can try players at different positions.

 

But, like Polanco playing shorstop insteadd of second, then you have Nick Gordon, supposedly a shotstop being moved to second. Well, until the guy actually gets on a major league field and gets in the faster game mode (so to speak), you don't know. Remember, Cuddyer was ALSO an infielder and played around the diamond before settling in the outfield. He could still play 2B and 3B in a pinch.

 

And then we have Willians who is a catcher and played CENTREFIELD, third base and PITCHER...but didn't catch an inning (which, by the way, didn't the recall come for him to the majors to give Sano a few more days (weeks) at AAA Rochester?).

 

I think the Twins HAVE pushed players to do multiple positions at times. I seem to remember that Max Kepler was getting first base rotations at A ball. Rpsario, like you said, started as a second baseguy. The Twins are making Logan Morrison more valuable by playing him in the outfield. 

 

Yet guys with great talent (Joe Mauer) can shift from catcher of the outfield at times, but not third base? 

 

Anyways, good piece. I would go with Rosario as a third baseman for awhile and see what happens, as the Twins have many many outfielders in the system (adding three just this week) and you have to decide if his defense at third would rival his olay in the outfield.

 

And then, where to put Sano? Of course, try the guy at first. But a professional designated hitter one he conquers his bat swinging will be his home (be it with the Twins or in another uniform).

 

 

Posted

You'd have a hard time convincing me that most middle infielders couldn't play at least a passable LF if not all three OF spots. And if a player can't also play 1B it only means he's strictly a DH.

 

I think the only thing standing in the way of positional flexibility for the majority MLB'ers is stubbornness and repetition. Yeah you have to commit to playing a guy at a new spot in the minors and the minor league manager isn't going to like it. Or you have to commit Spring Training to it and someone might have resentment. These guys have physical gifts 99% of the world isn't blessed with, they can learn a second position if they commit to it.

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Posted

You'd have a hard time convincing me that most middle infielders couldn't play at least a passable LF if not all three OF spots. And if a player can't also play 1B it only means he's strictly a DH.

 

I think the only thing standing in the way of positional flexibility for the majority MLB'ers is stubbornness and repetition. Yeah you have to commit to playing a guy at a new spot in the minors and the minor league manager isn't going to like it. Or you have to commit Spring Training to it and someone might have resentment. These guys have physical gifts 99% of the world isn't blessed with, they can learn a second position if they commit to it.

I agree that most any SS or 2nd baseman can stand out in LF and catch fly balls.

 

The question is...why? What is gained?

Posted

 

There have been many instances of this in the past - it is not all that new school.  Elston Howard was both a catcher and a left fielder for the Yankees during their dominance decade and Gil McDougal was his infield equivalent playing everyday, but at 3B, SS, 2B.  Yogi Berra caught and played OF and even played a game at 3B and 1B.

 

Killebrew played 1B, 3B, and Outfield.  Stan Musial was both 1B and OF.   

 

And some guy named Ruth was both P and Outfielder (Ohtani, but much better).

 

http://brysholm.blogspot.com/2013/06/multi-position-regulars.html  

 

The Twins had Escobar, Adrianza, Motter, and Astudillo to do this, but that versatility is not part of every player's DNA.  Overall you want the best fielder at every position and hope they are also the best hitter of the group.  

 

This is not old school versus new school, it is the type of player you have - a Molitor would be great for us with his versatility as a player.  Or a Pete Rose.  Or Cesar Tovar.  And it is the type of manager that you have.  And what your lineup looks like.  If you have the positions filled with the best players the versatility comes with injury.  Looking at the Twins team Rosario is the only one, besides our utility guy Adrianza, who I could see doing this, but when the roster is managed properly do we gain by putting Rosario at a position where he is less capable, perhaps more prone to injury and then fill his position with a lesser player?

 

There is still an old school versus new school.

 

Dave Roberts is playing Cody Bellinger at both 1B and CF.

 

Cody Bellinger had 473 Innings of OF work in the minors prior to his arrival in LA. His first two years in the minors were exclusively at 1B and he spent a total of 2362 innings total at 1B in the minors. When Bellinger was called up to the Dodgers he was one of the top prospects in all the land. 

 

Regardless Bellinger was called up April 2017 when OF Joc Pederson was placed on the DL. He made his MLB debut not where he was most comfortable at 1B with 2362 innings but in LF where he had spent a total of 110 innings because that is where the Dodgers needed him. As Adrian Gonzalez continued to struggle with a .642 OPS (Which is a lot like what we saw this year from our players). Bellinger started playing more and more 1B. Bellinger was added as an OF and eventually finished 2017 with 93 games at 1B as the Dodgers phased out A-Gon. Also playing 48 games in the OF (Primarily LF). 

 

Fast Forward to 2018... A Gon is gone. Bellinger has the 1B position to himself and he has started there 77 times but has also played CF 35 times and OF 40 times. Which has allowed Max Muncy and his newly found bat to play 1B 41 times. 

 

Max Muncy has also played 3B 36 times, OF 6 times and 2B 11 times. Max Muncy of course was released by the Oakland A's and acquired by the Dodgers for free and had a total of 96 innings at 2B in the minors prior to coming to the Dodgers. He has now played more 2B with the Dodgers then he did in 7 years of minor league play. 

 

Muncy had been playing some 2B despite the presence of Logan Forsythe, Chase Utley, Kike Hernandez, Chris Taylor and Catcher Austin Barnes on the Dodgers roster. All 5 of those players have more experience playing the 2B position than Max Muncy. 

 

Utley 15040 Innings at 2B

Forsythe 5824 Innings at 2B

Hernandez 3776 Innings at 2B

Barnes 1662 Innings at 2B

Taylor 892 Innings at 2B

 

All of this is happening during a time when the Dodgers Starting Pitching has had as many as 4 starters on the DL at the same time. They have lost Corey Seager with a season ending injury and Justin Turner missed the first 40 games of the season due to injury. 

 

The Dodgers are currently in 1st place despite such shenanigans. There is definitely a new school and an old school.

 

Did the Dodgers seek out these type of players or did they just do it against old school conventions.

 

Has it hurt them defensively?

 

Has it hurt them in the standings?

 

Would the Twins ever try something like the Dodgers are doing? Or like the Cubs are doing? Or like the Brewers are doing? All competing for playoff spots as we speak. 

 

The Brewers just moved Travis Shaw to 2B after the acquisition of Mike Moustakas. Travis Shaw has 0 innings of 2B experience in the minors and majors so it is anybody's guess the last time he turned a double play. 

Posted

 

Of course, the Twins were behind the curve (and still are in relation to the top teams in the AL) in regards to strikeout type pitchers meaning they needed better than average defense to have any chance because so many balls were put in play. I don’t know if the metrics agree, but I always felt 2b was his best position. It certainly was where he provided the biggest lift offensively.

 

I have no reason to doubt that 2B is Brian's best position however we are noticing the shifting that has taken over the game. 

 

With the shifting it is no longer the 2B position that we grew up watching. 

Posted

Sometimes it seems personnel people invest so much into a players position they can't or won't adapt. Also, a player who can hit seems to have excuses made for his lack of defensive chops. It didn't take a MLB level scout to see that Plouffe EE, Dozier, weren't MLB caliber SS. All suffered from range issues, and Dozier suffered from lack of arm strength. Garver is another example. If I can sees his hands of steel on TV in 3 games, what in the world is the coaching staff looking at it. There is a difference between sitting behind the plate with gear on, and being a catcher. And if you don't have 'soft' hands you can't frame pitches. And you cannot teach soft hands. Brian's analysis is pretty spot on. While I am sure other teams have some same sort of issues, we do seem to excell at wishful thinking in our scouting departments.

Posted

I have no reason to doubt that 2B is Brian's best position however we are noticing the shifting that has taken over the game.

 

With the shifting it is no longer the 2B position that we grew up watching.

I was actually refering to Cuddyer. I think I was posting at the same time you were mentioning Dozier. I didn’t quote because I’m lazy and didn’t figure anyone else would be up at 8 on a Sunday.

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