Passan: Dodgers Nearing Deal for Forsythe

[Doomtints]

 

They have space in their bullpen. And every team in baseball has space for someone on the staff who is really good.

 

They don't have space in their bullpen. Their roster is full. To add a rookie now means cutting a veteran. The Dodgers had no choice but to trade De Leon before the season starts.

[Doomtints]

 

"Squeezing De Leon onto the roster"? He was up last year.

 

He was added to the 40-man when the Dodgers already had 49 players on the 40-man. Do the math. The Dodgers had no choice but to prune and make difficult decisions during the offseason.

 

No intelligent GM stashes a 24-year old guy who is ready in the minors when he has several younger players of a similar caliber who will also be ready when they need to dig in and call someone up to the majors.

 

This is called trading from a position of strength, something we don't see very often in Twins Territory. 

[terrydactyls]

 

Moderator note - I am allowing Dave to have the last word on this and we are NOW DONE discussing the credibility of Dave's source. This has been beaten to death and is detracting from this thread.

Sorry.  I wasn't questioning the source.  I was just curious about it.  If I were the Twins front office and the Dodgers only offered De Leon for Dozier, I would have been insulted.

[TheLeviathan]

 

You need to stop working in absolutes. I clearly did not when I said the article did not make a 1:1 deal a fact; however it is a possibility and these arguments could be avoided if at some point you acknowledge that your position is in fact, not a fact.

 

No one is saying there is a villain, certainly not me. For the record, I would guess the Dodgers offered another, though minimal piece. But that's a guess which is all any of us have at this point.

 

Even if "junk" is included, it's still not 1:1. The vast majority of reporting has indicated it was not, again, by definition a 1:1.  They have talked about packages, about "junk" extra pieces, etc.  So I have to ask....why do people keep framing it that way?   Why do you keep framing it that way?

 

If it's overwhelmingly indicationed that the position is false, what's the purpose for that framing?

 

 

[gunnarthor]

The reason everyone keeps saying it was De Leon and junk is because that's what is the most likely, both by what has been reported by credible sources as well as looking at the deal the Rays got.  

 

Steve Adams at mlbtraderumors referred to the Dodgers offer as "junk."  Jon Heyman reported that teams view the Dodgers as stingy.  The Dodgers version of Dave tweeted that the "Dodgers didn't want to part with their own prospect" so, according to him, their best version involved LA surrendering only De Leon and Alex Wood.  

 

So I think it's pretty fair to refer to their offer as De Leon and junk.  And as we're starting to hear how more and more baseball people view De Leon, it looks even worse.

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

C'mon.  Knapp's quote is him spitballing.  He starts it with an "if" and everything.

 

Widespread reporting on their being a package of players and now a report of a three team deal being tried.  The range of possibilities of what was discussed are pretty broad (including the possibility there was a legit off and including the possibility that there was, indeed, nothing but junk), but they don't include 1:1 being on the table when the teams decided to break if off.  

 

The Dodgers don't have to be the bad guy.  We can stop trotting out this 1:1 thing.  There doesn't have to be a villain here.

 

I keep pointing this out, but several Dodgers sources (Dodgerblue I think was one of them) reported the same thing. I know the LEN article was poorly worded and that national press jumped on that, but reports coming out of sources close to LA pretty much said the same thing.

[Vanimal46]

Why is Steve Adams a credible source? Don't they just gather data from other reporters and sources at MLB Trade Rumors? He's not out there gathering his own leads.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

 So I think it's pretty fair to refer to their offer as De Leon and junk.  And as we're starting to hear how more and more baseball people view De Leon, it looks even worse.

 

"junk" is a relative term.  If Knapp is such a good source, he also states anything short of Bellinger and DeLeon is not enough value.  Whose to say "junk" isn't relative to Bellinger?  

 

It's speculation at that point.  But 1:1?  Nah, that isn't speculation.  1:1 was long off the table by the time they parted ways.

[gunnarthor]

 

"junk" is a relative term.  If Knapp is such a good source, he also states anything short of Bellinger and DeLeon is not enough value.  Whose to say "junk" isn't relative to Bellinger?  

 

It's speculation at that point.  But 1:1?  Nah, that isn't speculation.  1:1 was long off the table by the time they parted ways.

There's a lot of stuff that's relative.  I'm pretty comfortable saying the offer was De Leon + junk but if I was forced to choose between the offer being just De Leon or De Leon + not junk, I'd say the offer was 1:1.

[TheLeviathan]

 

There's a lot of stuff that's relative.  I'm pretty comfortable saying the offer was De Leon + junk but if I was forced to choose between the offer being just De Leon or De Leon + not junk, I'd say the offer was 1:1.

 

I just don't think you have much basis to take "junk" to mean literally "nothing.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I did the same thing you did... I just started in 2016 and worked backwards.

 

 

Jose Peraza might be something special with the Reds but he still hasn't been named a starter yet. 

 

Scott Schebler... Had some moments but we really can't declare him a big time prospect who blossomed into a star. 

 

Andrew Heaney was a highly ranked prospect. We won't know if he pans out until 2018 and beyond because he is doing the Tommy John thing. 

 

Will have to see how Holmes, Montas and Cotton turn out for the A's. 

 

That's hardly a list that inspires extra caution when dealing with Friedman.

 

Heaney was virtually never property of the Dodgers -- he came from the Marlins and went to the Angels in what was essentially a 3-way deal.  (And the shortcomings of this trade are the reasons the Dodgers were looking for 2B help this winter -- they traded away Dee Gordon, and acquired Howie Kendrick who promptly collapsed.)

 

Peraza and Montas (acquired for Peraza) were property of the Dodgers for only a few months each.  LA was the second org to trade Peraza, and the third to trade Montas.

 

Schebler was a 25 year C+ throw-in to get Montas.

 

Montas and Cotton seem like a solid haul for 2 months of Rich Hill and Josh Reddick; Holmes is understood by all to be a project.  All roughly B prospects, none seem like they were traded at any inflated value.

 

You might notice they've mostly traded prospects acquired from other organizations and not their own.  But I'm not sure how meaningful that is -- at the time of the Heaney trade, the Dodgers didn't have any top pitching prospects except Urias.  At the time of the Peraza trade, the Dodgers didn't have any top infield prospects except Seager.  Those guys were universally considered elite, it's no slight on De Leon that he is not in that class, and not particularly meaningful that the Dodgers were unwilling to trade those two guys in what were decidedly not blockbuster trades (the Dodgers acquiring 1 year of Howie Kendrick for Heaney, and Montas plus Thompson and the now DFA'd Micah Johnson for Peraza and Schebler).

 

I mean, Rays fans circa 2008 could have made this same argument about the Twins -- they had never traded a prospect or young player that became much of anything.  Bowyer, Tyler, Harbin, Kielty, Kinney, Valentin, Padilla, Sears, Buchanan, Kinney, Valentin, Redman.... But they would have been fools to let that discourage them from trading for Matt Garza.

[doscinco]

Why are the Twins new FO using the press so much? I'm a Dodger fan and I don't ever remember trade talks being as public as Dozier's with Freidman/Zaidi around. Then there's the latest Beradino article where the roving pitching coordinator says Bellinger/De Leon for Dozier would've been a fair deal. What is the point of that? 

[DodgerFan1234]

"junk" is a relative term. If Knapp is such a good source, he also states anything short of Bellinger and DeLeon is not enough value. Whose to say "junk" isn't relative to Bellinger?

 

It's speculation at that point. But 1:1? Nah, that isn't speculation. 1:1 was long off the table by the time they parted ways.

Well said. Let me also that that some on this board like to trash DeLeon and his upside. Some have said that there's got to be something wrong with JDL if the Dodgers were so eager to dump him. Not so. Dodgers had an obvious need at 2B and look at the acquiring team, the Rays. I would argue that they've been one of the best teams at evaluating pitching talent over the last 10 years. Price, Archer, Garza (ouch), etc. I know trashing JDL makes you feel better but I wish nothing but the best for the kid. And here's to him pitching CGS's against the Twins over the next 6 years

[nicksaviking]

 

Why are the Twins new FO using the press so much? I'm a Dodger fan and I don't ever remember trade talks being as public as Dozier's with Freidman/Zaidi around. Then there's the latest Beradino article where the roving pitching coordinator says Bellinger/De Leon for Dozier would've been a fair deal. What is the point of that? 

 

I think you're mistaken, Rick Knapp was the Dodgers minor league pitching coordinator, he's the one talking and he has no affiliation with the Twins. He references Jeff Pickler who the Twins hired from the Dodgers, but Pickler was not interviewed for this article. It's simply a Minnesota reporter talking to a former Dodger employee, this isn't anyone from the Twins talking.

[DaveW]

The Twins have been leaking a ton of stuff for "spin"

 

See: Cards being interested

[gunnarthor]

The leaks are interesting and a new development.  Under Ryan, this whole discussion might never have come to light.  We'd all be here arguing about whether he's even TALKED to the Dodgers and then they trade De Leon for Forsythe and this place would have exploded.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

We'd all be here arguing about whether he's even TALKED to the Dodgers

We'd all be here arguing about whether he even had a phone number for the Dodgers or the ability to operate a phone.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Let's not forget when Wolfson reported that the Angels were interested in Dozier:

 

https://twitter.com/DWolfsonKSTP/status/802266986004746240

 

I wonder how that conversation went?

[doscinco]

 

I think you're mistaken, Rick Knapp was the Dodgers minor league pitching coordinator, he's the one talking and he has no affiliation with the Twins. He references Jeff Pickler who the Twins hired from the Dodgers, but Pickler was not interviewed for this article. It's simply a Minnesota reporter talking to a former Dodger employee, this isn't anyone from the Twins talking.

Yeah but why say stuff like this:

 

"I love Sborz, but the Dodgers didn’t think all that much of him," Knapp said.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

We'd all be here arguing about whether he even had a phone number for the Dodgers or the ability to operate a phone.

And then I'd interject that TR likely tried calling the Dodgers, but when he picked up the phone he heard the sounds of Jack Goin's dial-up modem.

[USAFChief]

 

1:1 suggests that the Dodgers never budged.  It's being deliberately trotted out to make the Dodgers look like the unreasonable party when the truth is it could be both or neither.  But that doesn't fit a narrative Twins fans will want to eat up.  

 

This report suggests conversations got well past 1:1.

A pejorative phrase like "deliberately trotted out" is belittling and does little to further a discussion.  Perhaps there is a narrative here, but not from me.

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

A pejorative phrase like "deliberately trotted out" is belittling and does little to further a discussion.  Perhaps there is a narrative here, but not from me.

 

Glad to hear it, but I also don't hear you constantly framing this as 1:1.  Those that are, I'd like to know why that framing persists when every report runs counter to it.

[drjim]

Glad to hear it, but I also don't hear you constantly framing this as 1:1. Those that are, I'd like to know why that framing persists when every report runs counter to it.

Probably because the literal frame you are describing exists primarily in your imagination useful for bludgeoning imaginary foes in this debate.

 

The question always struck me as what were the Dodgers offering beyond De Leon and what should be acceptable to the Twins. The first question is hard to know even with the few clues available. The second question is quite interesting and an enjoyable debate.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Probably because the literal frame you are describing exists primarily in your imagination useful for bludgeoning imaginary foes in this debate.

The question always struck me as what were the Dodgers offering beyond De Leon and what should be acceptable to the Twins. The first question is hard to know even with the few clues available. The second question is quite interesting and an enjoyable debate.

 

I suggest you search 1:1 on the forum.  The bludgeoning is happening in the other direction.  We can't even get to your interesting questions because the very notion that they were is (supposedly) debunked by news reports.  

 

I too find the discussion about Calhoun/Stewart/Buehler/Lux/Whomever to be more interesting.  But we can't have that discussion without someone chiming in that we were offered nothing but "junk".

[snepp]

 

We'd all be here arguing about whether he even had a phone number for the Dodgers or the ability to operate a phone.

 

It's a real pita when your rolodex gets full and you don't have room for any more cards.

[Riverbrian]

It's all pretty Robin Thicke to me. The lines are pretty blurry. Rumor from a reputable source or a rumor from a non reputable source. Which sources are reputable and which sources are not reputable.  

 

I think I've read the majority of them and I can say with full confidence that I have no idea what was offered. 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

That's hardly a list that inspires extra caution when dealing with Friedman.

 

Heaney was virtually never property of the Dodgers -- he came from the Marlins and went to the Angels in what was essentially a 3-way deal.  (And the shortcomings of this trade are the reasons the Dodgers were looking for 2B help this winter -- they traded away Dee Gordon, and acquired Howie Kendrick who promptly collapsed.)

 

Peraza and Montas (acquired for Peraza) were property of the Dodgers for only a few months each.  LA was the second org to trade Peraza, and the third to trade Montas.

 

Schebler was a 25 year C+ throw-in to get Montas.

 

Montas and Cotton seem like a solid haul for 2 months of Rich Hill and Josh Reddick; Holmes is understood by all to be a project.  All roughly B prospects, none seem like they were traded at any inflated value.

 

You might notice they've mostly traded prospects acquired from other organizations and not their own.  But I'm not sure how meaningful that is -- at the time of the Heaney trade, the Dodgers didn't have any top pitching prospects except Urias.  At the time of the Peraza trade, the Dodgers didn't have any top infield prospects except Seager.  Those guys were universally considered elite, it's no slight on De Leon that he is not in that class, and not particularly meaningful that the Dodgers were unwilling to trade those two guys in what were decidedly not blockbuster trades (the Dodgers acquiring 1 year of Howie Kendrick for Heaney, and Montas plus Thompson and the now DFA'd Micah Johnson for Peraza and Schebler).

 

I mean, Rays fans circa 2008 could have made this same argument about the Twins -- they had never traded a prospect or young player that became much of anything.  Bowyer, Tyler, Harbin, Kielty, Kinney, Valentin, Padilla, Sears, Buchanan, Kinney, Valentin, Redman.... But they would have been fools to let that discourage them from trading for Matt Garza.

 

When I started looking over the transactions. I was specifically looking for examples of Friedman trading a prospect that turned into something. 

 

That context may have not been apparent. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

If Knapp is such a good source, he also states anything short of Bellinger and DeLeon is not enough value.

Knapp is not a source at all. Not as far as shedding light on the trade talks, he isn't.

 

Knapp is just a guy who knows both Dozier and De Leon really, really well and is uniquely situated to talk on record about both of them. And he gave a great interview to Berardino.

 

Edit: ninja'd by nick post 345

[Otto von Ballpark]

Knapp knows Dozier really, really well?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Knapp knows Dozier really, really well?

Remember, every team supposedly has a complete book on every other player in every organization, and all that. It's not something I personally buy into, but i've seen it suggested here.

 

In any case, Knapp knows De Leon intimately well, which comes through in the interview.