Berrios and the hook!

[Platoon]

I posted this in the game thread, but the more I think about it, the more I am puzzled by it. It even caused Bert to far surpass the normal level of decorum used in discussing managerial moves.

 

"Removing Berrios in the 5th with two outs and a lead was not done because he was losing it, or because the game situation, or season demanded it. It was intentional. But for what reason? To send a message? But to whom? For what? Gardy was infamous for using that situation to either discipline a recalcitrant pitcher, or in the inverse reward a veteran by leaving him try and get the out for a cheap win. Molitor didn't remove Berrios in a poor strategic move. So why did he really jerk him?"

[DocBauer]

I missed all but the latter innings so I'm just spit balling here, but was Berrios on a pitch limit maybe?

[Cory Engelhardt]

Yeah, it was crap. Let the kid learn. He wasn't going THAT badly, and it's not like the Twins are needing to win all of the games at the end of the year.

Plus, to pull him (if you are trying to win the game) and then continue to bunt as OFTEN as you can (which is still a waste) does not add up either.

Ugh

[Thrylos]

74 pitches thrown.  Then they needed 8 more pitchers.  Molitor seems to manage like it is a little league team: Let's get everyone in.  Players with no future for the Twins should not be playing.  Period.

[Platoon]

I missed all but the latter innings so I'm just spit balling here, but was Berrios on a pitch limit maybe?

During his post morteum, er post game, Molitor said he was not on a count.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I missed all but the latter innings so I'm just spit balling here, but was Berrios on a pitch limit maybe?

It would be a pretty weird limit, if that was the case.  As Thrylos notes, he was at 77 pitches for the game, which he has matched or exceeded in all of his MLB starts this year except the 3 times he got knocked out super-early.  Plus he was only at 18 pitches for the inning, and as noted, he already had 2 outs.

[jsimssd72]

I was perplexed at that early hook as well.  He had just giving up an infield single and gets the hook at 77 pitches with two outs?   If he is in the future plans he needs to learn how to get out of those situations and the Twins needed to show confidence they feel he can instead of yanking him and basically telling him you don't trust him.  I know his past performances he has not earned the trust but what a better time to let him try to earn it in a game that means nothing to the Twins. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

In his last official start (versus the Mets), Molitor also pulled Berrios after only 4 IP and 80 pitches so he could pinch hit Logan Schafer with two outs and nobody on base.

 

Berrios is obviously still a work in progress, but it does seem like Molitor is employing an unusually short hook for him.

[BobAzar]

I say this all the time to my wife, I wont pretend to know more about baseball than Molitor, but sometimes I wonder what the hell he is doing. That move last night was one of those times. 

[gunnarthor]

At the end of the day, Molitor knows a lot about baseball and he is a bad manager.  How he has handled Berrios, Buxton, Meyer, Rosario and even Sano and (to a lesser extent) May should be reason enough to fire him.  

 

 

[Doomtints]

In a 100 loss season there is no reason to pull him, so the fact that the Twins had a lead is not even relevant.  

 

But it's almost like he simply did not want Berrios to get a win, which he only needed one more out to be in line to get.  This is borderline offensive, really.  Instead he gets the loss -- but only because the next pitcher did a poor job and allowed the baserunner to score.  

 

Even if as a manager you don't trust Berrios, do you trust this bullpen instead?  Hell no.  This bullpen has been cooked for months.  Let the young guy pitch as long as the game isn't getting embarrassing.  

[wsnydes]

I missed the game completely, but noticed that Berrios got an early hook while perusing the box score.  I looked at the play by play for the inning and was just as puzzled, so it's interesting to me that you bring it up.  Knowing that this is relatively common for Molitor to do to Berrios (among others too), I tend to chalk it up to Molitor not having the patience to allow a kid to work through his struggles and learn at the major league level.  

 

To echo gunnarthor's comment, on a team that needs to rely on it's youth to get out of this chasm they've put themselves in, the level of impatience is a fireable offense in my book.  Maybe Molitor does a fantastic job in another managerial situation, but the situation that the Twins are in currently is not one of those.  It just doesn't seem to be the right fit.

[bird]

I'm really struggling to find something about Paulie's managing that I find meritorious. Post-game eloquence? The fact that there hasn't been a clubhouse mutiny? I miss Gardy. 

[rghrbek]

I really think it's a combination of Molly trying to win, and being annoyed with Berrios.  By pulling Berrios, he failed to help the pitcher develop further, and also of course, failed to win, because Boshers came in and gave up an immediate single.

 

Tough to develop young talent, in a lost season, when your priority is to win.

 

He was a little belligerent, in his manerisms,  in the post game interview when asked about it, which he proceeded to not answer really.  Shame on the beat writers for not pushing harder on this issue though.

[laloesch]

 

In a 100 loss season there is no reason to pull him, so the fact that the Twins had a lead is not even relevant.  

 

But it's almost like he simply did not want Berrios to get a win, which he only needed one more out to be in line to get.  This is borderline offensive, really.  Instead he gets the loss -- but only because the next pitcher did a poor job and allowed the baserunner to score.  

 

Even if as a manager you don't trust Berrios, do you trust this bullpen instead?  Hell no.  This bullpen has been cooked for months.  Let the young guy pitch as long as the game isn't getting embarrassing.  

 

Yeah....puzzling.  It's just dumb to pull him in such a situation during a 100 loss season.  I mean if he was getting pounded and just couldn't get out of the inning then you pull him, but he was nowhere near that point.  

 

To be perfectly honest I don't think Molitor "Gets It".  This really should be his last season as manager.  He clearly has no patience with young talent and this team is full of it.  He'd rather try and scratch out meaningless wins with irrelevant veterans who are not part of the future plans than getting badly needed experience for the new call ups.  That is the WRONG approach to bringing this team back to contention.  He would have been a better manager for the Twins in the mid to to late 2000's.   

[nicksaviking]

Here's an (optimistic) take:

 

Molitor doesn't trust young players so he makes rash decisions on them due to the mis-guided but long held belief that the veterans are more likely to salvage a win. The Twins are already at 100 losses so every manager in this situation should know that developing the youth in hopes that they can provide more wins next year is more important than trying to salvage a futile win now; unless you're managing for your job.

 

If Molitor isn't confident in his job security, then it's likely it's not as rock solid as Jim Pohlad publicly claims.

 

Again, just looking at the optimistic angle.

[h2oface]

.. . Instead he gets the loss -- but only because the next pitcher did a poor job and allowed the baserunner to score. ....

No decision, actually. But he was one out from qualifying for the win. Molitor does goofy things, but nothing could make me miss Gardenhire.

[old nurse]

 

74 pitches thrown.  Then they needed 8 more pitchers.  Molitor seems to manage like it is a little league team: Let's get everyone in.  Players with no future for the Twins should not be playing.  Period.

Who would pitch as most of the bullpen and half the starters really have no long term future?

[rghrbek]

 

Here's an (optimistic) take:

 

Molitor doesn't trust young players so he makes rash decisions on them due to the mis-guided but long held belief that the veterans are more likely to salvage a win. The Twins are already at 100 losses so every manager in this situation should know that developing the youth in hopes that they can provide more wins next year is more important than trying to salvage a futile win now; unless you're managing for your job.

 

If Molitor isn't confident in his job security, then it's likely it's not as rock solid as Jim Pohlad publicly claims.

 

Again, just looking at the optimistic angle.

 

Not a bad take.  However, what's the dif if you lose 101 or 105 for job security?  Your team is terrible.  Still absolutely baffling that he took Jose out, even if he was considering that.

 

Also, maybe he just doesn't want the worst team in Twins history to come under his guidance?  Pride should have left the building once you knew you were going to lose 90 games.

[DocBauer]

77 pitches??? (I should have looked closer at the box score) I don't care if it's a long season or a pitch limit or what...2 outs and 77 pitches? So what if you had him penciled in for 80? (talking theoretically here) A few more pitches for the 3rd out would be dangerous in some way?

 

Sorry.....but shame on you Molitor.

[laloesch]

 

Not a bad take.  However, what's the dif if you lose 101 or 105 for job security?  Your team is terrible.  Still absolutely baffling that he took Jose out, even if he was considering that.

 

Also, maybe he just doesn't want the worst team in Twins history to come under his guidance?  Pride should have left the building once you knew you were going to lose 90 games.

 

Haha never thought of that.  Manager of the most futile Twins team ever.  PAUL MOLITOR!!!!!!!!!!! takes a bow to thunderous applause

[Thrylos]

 

Here's an (optimistic) take:

 

Molitor doesn't trust young players so he makes rash decisions on them due to the mis-guided but long held belief that the veterans are more likely to salvage a win. 

 

And you are calling this optimistic for a team that is about to rebuild and have only young players?

 

(unless you are implying that such an event might be enough cause to make Molitor retire)

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

And you are calling this optimistic for a team that is about to rebuild and have only young players?

 

(unless you are implying that such an event might be enough cause to make Molitor retire)

The optimistic part is that perhaps Molitor senses his job isn't as secure as has been reported, if he really sees a difference between 99 and 100 losses, or 102 and 103 losses.

 

If his job were truly secure, I presume he would have been told by now in no uncertain terms that he won't be held responsible for further 2016 losses attributed to a prospect like Berrios.

[mikelink45]

The only reason for the Twins to play (of course they have no choice) is to get ready for the future.  The list of objectionable decisions made this September (a continuation of other bad decisions) is way too long.  At one point Berrios and May had the most upside.  We have squandered May and ripped Berrios confidence - not to mention watching Gibson and Duffey regress.  

 

I heard that Molitor wants to come back with all his coaches - that is an indictment by itself. 

Here is what Nolasco has done in September since being freed from our coaches:

September 34.0innings 23H 8R 7ER 8BB 24K 0.91whip 1.85ERA 

Then we destroyed Santiago until he decided to go back to what he had been doing. 

 

In the old days a pitcher was left in to work through jams and suck it up until he got it.  Not pulled early.  I miss that.

[dxpavelka]

Sending a message--to Derek Falvey that he should have a field manager candidate or two on speed dial.

[nicksaviking]

 

The optimistic part is that perhaps Molitor senses his job isn't as secure as has been reported, if he really sees a difference between 99 and 100 losses, or 102 and 103 losses.

 

If his job were truly secure, I presume he would have been told by now in no uncertain terms that he won't be held responsible for further 2016 losses attributed to a prospect like Berrios.

 

Yes, that was my optimistic take.

[twinsnorth49]

Here are my final thoughts on Mollie pulling Berrios last night.

 

http://i2.wp.com/pulptastic.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/what-the-4.jpg?resize=600%2C802

[USAFChief]

 

Here are my final thoughts on Mollie pulling Berrios last night.

 

http://i2.wp.com/pulptastic.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/what-the-4.jpg?resize=600%2C802

Come here often?

[USAFChief]

The conspiricist in me wants to believe Blyleven's open and strong criticism  of the decision to remove Berrios was a strong sign Molitor's job isn't as secure as has been stated.

 

Dickbert simply do not sell managers (or players) down the road without the go ahead from the powers that be.  Or at least it seems that way to me.

[laloesch]

 

The only reason for the Twins to play (of course they have no choice) is to get ready for the future.  The list of objectionable decisions made this September (a continuation of other bad decisions) is way too long.  At one point Berrios and May had the most upside.  We have squandered May and ripped Berrios confidence - not to mention watching Gibson and Duffey regress.  

 

I heard that Molitor wants to come back with all his coaches - that is an indictment by itself. 

Here is what Nolasco has done in September since being freed from our coaches:

September 34.0innings 23H 8R 7ER 8BB 24K 0.91whip 1.85ERA 

Then we destroyed Santiago until he decided to go back to what he had been doing. 

 

In the old days a pitcher was left in to work through jams and suck it up until he got it.  Not pulled early.  I miss that.

 

If those stats hold going into early next season for Nolasco, then the evidence is pretty damning if you ask me.  That said though Nolasco pretty much didn't want to be in Minnesota from the very beginning.