Tell me if you've heard this before

[Thrylos]

 

Lavelle E. Neal wrote an article about Miguel Sano's off-season plan. That he's dedicated to playing 3B full-time, and looking to lose 20 lbs. Same thing we heard last year around this time... 

 

 

What we heard last year this time was someone (who thankfully is no longer with the organization) saying that he was planing to convert him to corner outfielder...

 

Unless my memory is failing me...

[Thrylos]

And, I wish the ones who are criticizing Sano about his weight, did the same for other Twins' players, like Perkins.

 

Just sayin'

[KirbyDome89]

 

He usually is.  He has opinions, of course, but when he says X happened, he usually has some actual support for saying that.

I have zero doubt the Twins asked Sano to lose weight last offseason, and I don't remember many people questioning whether Reusse could support that claim although a few may have. The issue I, and many others had with the article is Reusse insinuated that had Sano lost the weight his time in RF would have gone differently, and consequently his failure at the position was on him, rather than the Twins for playing him out of position. 

[laloesch]

 

And, I wish the ones who are criticizing Sano about his weight, did the same for other Twins' players, like Perkins.

 

Just sayin'

 

Oh believe me i don't approve of Perkins beer gut / paunch.  Cuss he's got one too.

[Doomtints]

 

It still may not be enough.  Some people are just stubborn or lack the self control.  

 

 

 

Judging by the size of his entourage seen in his scouting videos on youtube ... he probably has a very large number of enablers for anything he wants to do.  

 

Who would you listen to if you were young and naive?  The enablers are much louder when you are that age.  The Twins have a slim chance to change his behavior.  Sano has to be the guy who wants the behavior to change.  

[laloesch]

 

Judging by the size of his entourage seen in his scouting videos on youtube ... he probably has a very large number of enablers for anything he wants to do.  

 

Who would you listen to if you were young and naive?  The enablers are much louder when you are that age.  The Twins have a slim chance to change his behavior.  Sano has to be the guy who wants the behavior to change.  

 

I was an enabler.  My ex wife was a chronic alcoholic and smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day.  I tried for years and years to encourage her to quit smoking and stop drinking but it never worked.  Then i gave up and let her do what she wanted and finally i gave her an ultimatum and she chose wine and cancer sticks over our marriage. 

 

Ultimately it's up to Sano to make life choices.  Does he want to be a star athlete and a tremendous power hitter or live the life of a playboy and fizzle out.  It's up to him.

[TheLeviathan]

Do people want Sano to look like Adonis otherwise he'll fail?  What's the end game here?

 

 

[Seth Stohs]

 

And, I wish the ones who are criticizing Sano about his weight, did the same for other Twins' players, like Perkins.

 

Just sayin'

 

Coming into spring training, both Hughes and Perkins had lost quite a bit of weight. They were called out this time last year too. 

 

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Coming into spring training, both Hughes and Perkins had lost quite a bit of weight. They were called out this time last year too.

Maybe there was one or two minor snippets that "called them out".

Nothing like the extent of Sano, both here on TD and from the media and team.

 

And Perkins sure didn't look to me like he'd lost any weight.

 

I generally avoid criticism of body type, that goes for both Perkins and Sano, but I had to quote this post because there is no doubt that there is a double standard here.

[Seth Stohs]

 

Maybe there was one or two minor snippets that "called them out".
Nothing like the extent of Sano, both here on TD and from the media and team.

And Perkins sure didn't look to me like he'd lost any weight.

I generally avoid criticism of body type, that goes for both Perkins and Sano, but I had to quote this post because there is no doubt that there is a double standard here.

 

They were definitely called out on radio and some writing last year at this time. Not many were saying anything about Sano until he came to spring training this year bigger than the end of last year. 

 

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

It still may not be enough.  Some people are just stubborn or lack the self control.  

 

Sano has been told he needs to lose weight, and that it will likely improve his career.  Now whether or not he has the discipline at the dinner table, the self control and humility to accept his team's trainers advice is a different story.  Sometimes ego gets involved as well.  I know people like that but it might just be 100% self control.  You put a table of good food in front of them and 9 times out of 10 they can't resist and stuff themselves like pigs.  That's how you get fat and stay fat even if your an athlete.

 

Again, this is what irks me about this debate. I get that you know people that lack the self control. I know them too. I also know plenty where it isn't nearly that simple.  It's really easy to simply say 'so and so lacks self control' and call them fat... But they are hardly all the case.  As I said previously.  I ran a marathon at 235 pounds (I'm not a tall guy).  During training, I went on a pretty strict diet and ended up with nothing to show for it. I couldn't break below that floor, and when winter came and I was exercising less I ballooned up fast, and it's a cycle I had been repeating for years with each year having a new (higher) floor that I could never break through. As well, I have that same frame (minus the height), and at 0% body fat, I'm over weight by BMI (I've been tested).  You can have all the discipline in the world and be doing it wrong due to simple things like body chemistry or medical issues, and I can find plenty of examples like that in my life as well.

 

but at 23 and a professional athlete, I highly doubt that's Sano's problem is discipline.  Perhaps he's lazy and eats at McDonalds every day, but I doubt that.  Even if he does, at that age, a person's metabolism can make up for a crap ton of bad habits, especially considering that he gets more exercise than the average 23 year old.  Every one of us can look at our past and see that. If he's got a weight issue, there's likely something else going on, and if he's really struggling to lose weight, I highly doubt it's a discipline problem. 

 

You're right that it will likely present a career limiting move at some point, especially if he continues to gain weight.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean that his problem is his enablers continuing to stuff food in front of his face or the complete inability to turn it down.

[Teflon]

I think this is our fault. Last year at this time we all said we wanted to see more of him. Well, there was certainly more of him.

 

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2012/07/05/Documentary-raps-MLB-handling-of-Dominicans-KG1QFG7Q-x-large.jpg

[adorduan]

 

Again, this is what irks me about this debate. I get that you know people that lack the self control. I know them too. I also know plenty where it isn't nearly that simple.  It's really easy to simply say 'so and so lacks self control' and call them fat... But they are hardly all the case.  As I said previously.  I ran a marathon at 235 pounds (I'm not a tall guy).  During training, I went on a pretty strict diet and ended up with nothing to show for it. I couldn't break below that floor, and when winter came and I was exercising less I ballooned up fast, and it's a cycle I had been repeating for years with each year having a new (higher) floor that I could never break through. As well, I have that same frame (minus the height), and at 0% body fat, I'm over weight by BMI (I've been tested).  You can have all the discipline in the world and be doing it wrong due to simple things like body chemistry or medical issues, and I can find plenty of examples like that in my life as well.

 

but at 23 and a professional athlete, I highly doubt that's Sano's problem is discipline.  Perhaps he's lazy and eats at McDonalds every day, but I doubt that.  Even if he does, at that age, a person's metabolism can make up for a crap ton of bad habits, especially considering that he gets more exercise than the average 23 year old.  Every one of us can look at our past and see that. If he's got a weight issue, there's likely something else going on, and if he's really struggling to lose weight, I highly doubt it's a discipline problem. 

 

You're right that it will likely present a career limiting move at some point, especially if he continues to gain weight.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean that his problem is his enablers continuing to stuff food in front of his face or the complete inability to turn it down.

Well, he did say he wanted to eat cheesburgers every day a couple years ago during spring training

[Thrylos]

 

Coming into spring training, both Hughes and Perkins had lost quite a bit of weight. They were called out this time last year too. 

 

By the Twins' media?

[jimmer]

  

[Joe A. Preusser]

I would like to skewer the notion that any position in baseball has enough activity associated with it that it would be meaningful for weight loss. That part needs to come from an outside fitness routine and appropriate lifestyle

I don't know man, those grounds crew people were working pretty strenuously on Wed night.

[Squirrel]

I'm going to take a slightly different tack here and say, "No, I haven't heard this before." Not exactly. What seems different is a stronger sense of commitment from Sano to work hard(er) over the off-season. Yeah, we can all say, "We'll see" ... something we can say about anyone. But it does seem to me that maybe Sano has matured a little and is understanding the correlation between off-season work and in-season production.

 

And for those that are taking this thread off-track into ABW realm, and expanding rosters ... knock it off.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

I want to see someone that moves from awful defensively to simply below average.  That may save a few runs over the course of the season.

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

As for his defense, Sano doesn't have great range, but to me it at least seems passable. Fangraphs also shows his RngR is below average but actually better than Trevor Plouffe's. 

I know neither of you are the type to troll or deliberately spread misinformation, but what is the source of both of your claims for this?

[bird]

 

In a word about Reusse being right: No.  It doesn't.  His approach is still wrong even if today Sano is dedicating himself to weight loss.

 

Reusse used it as a way to challenge the kid's mentality and desire to win and he used his flat weight as a means to do it.  Sano is always going to look heavy by the numbers, the kid's mentality is unquestionable.  He's persevered through much already and shown his character and all Reusse was doing was assailing the kid's character publicly.

 

I'll never agree with that tact.

 

I didn't see it this way at all. Reusse reported his observations of Sano's actual behavior. He was factual about the weight issue. He heard comments during spring training from field people. He reported on Sano's decision to pass up a good deal of time in Fort Myers in favor of an extension of a NYC card show trip. As it turns out, he rightly questioned Sano on his dedication, his work ethic, and on his priorities. He concluded that Sano needed to grow up a bit and get more serious about things. Obviously, all of this points to the potential for it to be a longer-term problem generally associated by all of us as a character issue. The distinction I'd make from how you describe it is that Reusse did not set out to assail Sano's character but to point out how Sano's choices were affecting things. He called him out, but he didn't really trash the man. Reusse has been very clear about his opinion that Sano is by far the most important variable in whether the Twins are ultimately competitive again or not. Had Sano shown the type of behavior and dedication that Reusse observed and praised from Oswaldo Arcia, he would have praised Sano too.

[bird]

 

By the Twins' media?

 

I see what you did there. 

 

Just wondering, how much did the Twins pay Reusse for the article on Sano?

 

How about the Molitor one?

[KirbyDome89]

 

I didn't see it this way at all. Reusse reported his observations of Sano's actual behavior. He was factual about the weight issue. He heard comments during spring training from field people. He reported on Sano's decision to pass up a good deal of time in Fort Myers in favor of an extension of a NYC card show trip. As it turns out, he rightly questioned Sano on his dedication, his work ethic, and on his priorities. He concluded that Sano needed to grow up a bit and get more serious about things. Obviously, all of this points to the potential for it to be a longer-term problem generally associated by all of us as a character issue. The distinction I'd make from how you describe it is that Reusse did not set out to assail Sano's character but to point out how Sano's choices were affecting things. He called him out, but he didn't really trash the man. Reusse has been very clear about his opinion that Sano is by far the most important variable in whether the Twins are ultimately competitive again or not. Had Sano shown the type of behavior and dedication that Reusse observed and praised from Oswaldo Arcia, he would have praised Sano too.

He is one of 25 players across all levels of the organization to report to ST early, but because he doesn't stay the entire time he isn't dedicated to the team. He doesn't lose 10 pounds before the start of the season, he is now overweight and that clearly is the reason he struggled in RF; playing out of position had nothing to do with it. Don't forget he also missed an early batting practice session before one game in Tampa so he's unprofessional too. All this can be strung together  and apparently its obvious that Sano has character issues. 

 

 When you lay out all the "evidence," to support Reusse's accusations, its hard to see the article as anything other than character assault. 

[ken]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/evaluating-the-prospects-minnesota-twins/

 

I wonder if Fangraph is on the Twins payroll for Sano bashing. Here's a 2014 scouting report talking about his weight concerns,lack of maturity and expected move to right riled or first

[notoriousgod71]

 

So apparently Reusse was correct this spring?

 

 

http://www.startribune.com/it-s-ok-to-like-these-twins/374072231/

 

No.

[Guest]

Wow. A "positive" article has sure brought out a lot of unhappiness and certainty that the article means something negative.

 

People do mature. Adrian Beltre is now considered a leader in the Rangers clubhouse and possibly responsible for the improvement of players like Carlos Gomez. However, when he was young with the Dodgers, he was slammed often, in a similar manner as Sano, and didn't perform to his potential until his getaway year.

 

Hopefully, the archaic strategy of motivating players to improve by criticizing them went away with Terry Ryan and will get a stake through the heart with new management.

[DaveW]

I don't think is a self control problem at all, in fact, I LOVE that Sano is determined to improve and get better.

 

Yeah, he had a bit of a sophomore slump....I guess? But a .800 ops and 24 HR in 103 games (so far) for a 23 year old is down right impressive, the fact that he clearly wants to improve on this is a great sign.

[bird]

 

He is one of 25 players across all levels of the organization to report to ST early, but because he doesn't stay the entire time he isn't dedicated to the team. He doesn't lose 10 pounds before the start of the season, he is now overweight and that clearly is the reason he struggled in RF; playing out of position had nothing to do with it. Don't forget he also missed an early batting practice session before one game in Tampa so he's unprofessional too. All this can be strung together  and apparently its obvious that Sano has character issues. 

 

 When you lay out all the "evidence," to support Reusse's accusations, its hard to see the article as anything other than character assault. 

 

 

Accusations and assault? Wouldn't that require some of what was detailed to be untruthful? Those are words that, to me, hint at a hypersensitivity to a bit of truth that people don't want to hear about their hero. Reusse's characterization of the situation, from my observation of it, was not only credible and not particularly harsh, but ultimately, it was spot on, as Sano's own statements tend to support. I think people are seeing things that aren't there. Let's not contruct a false narrative that Sano has been subjected to scrutiny and held to standards from which other players are exempt, or that Sano is the only player to draw a little negative attention to himself in this way, or that anyone in the media or in the organization have attacked Sano's character. This kind of stuff happens all the time, with all teams, with lots of players, and I think trying to villify Reusse, or anyone else, on the basis of what's been said or done with Sano is irrational. I can recall dozens of such situations, with the Twins alone, dating back to the inception of the franchise. I'm guessing none of those involved- Sano, Molitor, the FO, Reusse- think it's as big a deal as some fans do.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Accusations and assault? Wouldn't that require some of what was detailed to be untruthful? Those are words that, to me, hint at a hypersensitivity to a bit of truth that people don't want to hear about their hero. Reusse's characterization of the situation, from my observation of it, was not only credible and not particularly harsh, but ultimately, it was spot on, as Sano's own statements tend to support. I think people are seeing things that aren't there. Let's not contruct a false narrative that Sano has been subjected to scrutiny and held to standards from which other players are exempt, or that Sano is the only player to draw a little negative attention to himself in this way, or that anyone in the media or in the organization have attacked Sano's character. This kind of stuff happens all the time, with all teams, with lots of players, and I think trying to villify Reusse, or anyone else, on the basis of what's been said or done with Sano is irrational. I can recall dozens of such situations, with the Twins alone, dating back to the inception of the franchise. I'm guessing none of those involved- Sano, Molitor, the FO, Reusse- think it's as big a deal as some fans do.

This isn't hypersensitivity. Its an annoyance that Reusse can write an article, make accusations about Sano's dedication, professionalism, and physical fitness while providing what can described as weak evidence at best, and people drink the kool aid like its Jonestown. Also the notion that because Sano's stats don't match last season everything Reusse wrote is suddenly true and irrefutable bothers the hell out of me. All players use the offseason to address weak points in their game and preparation, that isn't unique to Sano, and because he plans to attack this offseason differently than the last doesn't validate what Reusse wrote. What else can Sano say when asked how he plans to train this offseason? Do I wish the instances I listed had gone differently? Absolutely. Do I think 2 weeks at early spring training and dropping 10 lbs would have changed the season for Sano? Absolutely not. Pitchers adjusted and now its on him to do the same, thats baseball. I don't see that as unprofessional and lacking dedication. 

 

The degree to which honesty is involved doesn't change whether something is an accusation or an assault. A false narrative is exactly what that article created. Those instances I listed were right from the Reusse pieces and I threw in the bp session from the season. I'm not denying any of that happened. However, the idea that we're supposed to now believe that Sano is basically a selfish, undedicated, overweight, low character member of the team because of those actions is ridiculous. You're right, people are seeing something that isn't there...

 

I haven't read every article about every player since the franchise moved to the cities. I don't care that similar articles about other players have been published in the past. If they're similar to what was published this spring then they're just as off base and no less trash than what I read. The notion that "this stuff happens all the time," justifies the article doesn't do it for me. What is irrational is thinking that because a player leaves EARLY ST, doesn't lose an insignificant amount of weight, and misses an EARLY bp session before one game, you have now gleaned enough information to assess his dedication to the team, his professionalism, and his fitness. Ultimately all of these reflect on his character as an individual. I'm all for criticizing season statistics and performances. There is evidence available to support an argument. I don't agree with making assessments about character, and who works hardest, because none of us, including Reusse, know enough about any of these players outside of the field to accurately comment. 

[Platoon]

As to Reusse, while one can argue the tone or format he used, he was essentially correct. I have no doubt his info, and access is somewhat better than mine. And even I had heard from other sources, media of course, that Sano had been doing little during the off season but enjoying himself, and that his efforts to learn RF might even have been considered desultory. While it's true Sano might have come in at 250 and hit .225, the bottom line is he didn't. And while I never thought he would be successful in the OF, he made absolutely sure I was correct by not even trying. He is 23, there's plenty time for him to change. He's always gonna weigh above 260, the big question is what kind of above 260.

[USAFChief]

I get the feeling if Reusse wrote an article declaring the sun will rise again tomorrow, some people would attack Reusse for questioning the sun's character for setting tonight. And then declare Reusse wrong in the morning when the sun rises.

 

It's ok, folks, to admit you were wrong. Sano needs some maturation and some self discipline. Not uncommon for 20-somethings. He himself has said the same. Didnt exactly follow through last winter. Hopefully he does this winter.

 

But Attacking Reusse just makes you look worse than either Sano or Reusse.