Tell me if you've heard this before

[TheLeviathan]

I for one would like to know where the Church of Reusse meets and how many offerings of local food one must bring to attend.

 

Attacking (and that's what he did) the character of a 23 year old is never something I'll stand behind.  

[twinssporto]

"Tell me if you've heard this before...." Yes, I have.  I say it every year when I tell my wife I'm dropping 20 lbs.

 

By the way, when did this thread turn into a Jenny Craig/ Weight Watchers commercial?

 

P.S.  Stay away from the carbs Sano!

 

http://www.trektoday.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/KirstieAlleyApr2014.jpg

[HitInAPinch]

 

Do people want Sano to look like Adonis otherwise he'll fail?  What's the end game here?

I don't remember who said this [maybe Tom Kelly] but there's being in shape and then there's baseball in shape.   

[Platoon]

Reusse doesn't have to make up stories. He more likely has to decide which ones he wants to share with us, without burning his sources. It's a fine line, that he crosses more often than the other local ink stained wretches. Writing puff pieces like they do, virtually assures you of never being wrong. Reusse has access to GM, coaches, owners, other media members from outside the orginisation, and clubhouse guys. We do not have that luxury. His article was very likely based on the thoughts of a compilation of these sources, not just from himself watching ST. Since I didn't find the article demeaning, nor an attack, maybe the discussion should be phrased thusly: If one doesn't agree with the Curmudgeon on his analysis of Sanos off season practices, do you think that Sano actually did his very best to prepare his body and his mind for the upcoming season as a staple in the middle of the Twins order, and their shiny new RF. If you really do, then one can disagree with his premise. If you cannot say Sano was diligent in the off season, then all that's left is a discussion of to what level you agree with Patrick.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

This isn't hypersensitivity. Its an annoyance that Reusse can write an article, make accusations about Sano's dedication, professionalism, and physical fitness while providing what can described as weak evidence at best, and people drink the kool aid like its Jonestown. Also the notion that because Sano's stats don't match last season everything Reusse wrote is suddenly true and irrefutable bothers the hell out of me. All players use the offseason to address weak points in their game and preparation, that isn't unique to Sano, and because he plans to attack this offseason differently than the last doesn't validate what Reusse wrote. What else can Sano say when asked how he plans to train this offseason? Do I wish the instances I listed had gone differently? Absolutely. Do I think 2 weeks at early spring training and dropping 10 lbs would have changed the season for Sano? Absolutely not. Pitchers adjusted and now its on him to do the same, thats baseball. I don't see that as unprofessional and lacking dedication. 

 

The degree to which honesty is involved doesn't change whether something is an accusation or an assault. A false narrative is exactly what that article created. Those instances I listed were right from the Reusse pieces and I threw in the bp session from the season. I'm not denying any of that happened. However, the idea that we're supposed to now believe that Sano is basically a selfish, undedicated, overweight, low character member of the team because of those actions is ridiculous. You're right, people are seeing something that isn't there...

 

I haven't read every article about every player since the franchise moved to the cities. I don't care that similar articles about other players have been published in the past. If they're similar to what was published this spring then they're just as off base and no less trash than what I read. The notion that "this stuff happens all the time," justifies the article doesn't do it for me. What is irrational is thinking that because a player leaves EARLY ST, doesn't lose an insignificant amount of weight, and misses an EARLY bp session before one game, you have now gleaned enough information to assess his dedication to the team, his professionalism, and his fitness. Ultimately all of these reflect on his character as an individual. I'm all for criticizing season statistics and performances. There is evidence available to support an argument. I don't agree with making assessments about character, and who works hardest, because none of us, including Reusse, know enough about any of these players outside of the field to accurately comment.

 

Exactly. If it "happens all the time" then it's not worth mentioning.

 

Instead, I think certain media members have turned this into a season-long narrative to stoke the fan base against him (it's working). It's unfortunate.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't remember who said this [maybe Tom Kelly] but there's being in shape and then there's baseball in shape.   

 

That's a good line.

 

either way, I hate using his weight as a measuring tool.  People carry weight differently, especially when they are as heavily muscled as Sano is.

[USAFChief]

Didn't Sano say he needs to be lighter? Two years in a row now?

[Craig Arko]

http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/insights/news/2015/2015s-top-new-years-resolution-fitness.html

[TheLeviathan]

 

Didn't Sano say he needs to be lighter? Two years in a row now?

 

So does everyone else.  I'd bet Reusse has said it himself a few times.  Not sure what that matters.

[KirbyDome89]

I haven't seen anybody question Reusse's sources or accuse him of lying about the events he highlighted in the article so we can move past that. The issue lies in the characterization of Sano in each of those instances, and the use of those characterizations to build an image of Sano as lazy, unprofessional, and undedicated to the team. Its a massive jump to say an individual isn't dedicated to the team because they left early spring training after being one of only 25 players in the entire organization to attend. That is calling out his character, and I don't agree with it. I would have a problem with an article like that if it had focused on anybody in the organization. 

 

The backlash towards the article has everything to do with the narrative the article crafted, not who wrote it, but feel free to keep tossing the Reusse straw man out there. If attacking the article; I haven't seen any attacks levied at Reusse, isn't a good look then I'm absolutely fine with "looking bad." 

[bird]

 

I for one would like to know where the Church of Reusse meets and how many offerings of local food one must bring to attend.

 

Attacking (and that's what he did) the character of a 23 year old is never something I'll stand behind.  

 

I'm agnostic myself, but my guess it's kitty-corner from the Church of You Can't Criticize a Player Because That's An Attack On His Character.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm agnostic myself, but my guess it's kitty-corner from the Church of You Can't Criticize a Player Because That's An Attack On His Character.

One can criticize the player without criticizing the person.

[Jham]

 

One can criticize the player without criticizing the person.

 

Wait, wait, wait.... First, is "criticizing" the same thing as "attacking?"  Second, Sano has been a professional baseball player, voluntarily I believe, for seven years.  Third, his chosen profession involves a great deal of scrutiny both on and off the field.  I'd say he's compensated fairly even if the criticism is unwarranted.  I'd be somewhat more inclined to agree with you if we were discussing a college kid who was representing his University for free-ish.  (somewhat more inclined).  But aside from the fact that I would not consider criticizing work habits and maturity a particularly scathing indictment, I actually think criticizing a young man's character is MUCH fairer than criticizing their performance since character is something one can control, while overall talent is not.  If you said criticism of a guy like Nick Punto was unfair because he maxed out all his tools and was only average, I'd say, sure, that does seem rash.  But the guy who leaves winter ball early, goes to the DR with friends when he could have been working in Florida, and comes in heavy and ill-prepared to play right OR 3rd OR hit the way he's capable of is off limits?  Nah, if you ask me, he's been coddled too much...  I mean, his failure in right didn't lose TR his job, but Ryan was criticized for it. 

You act like Ruesse and others want Sano to fail.  We all want to see him put in the work and be the player we all think he can be!

[TheLeviathan]

 

Third, his chosen profession involves a great deal of scrutiny both on and off the field.  I'd say he's compensated fairly even if the criticism is unwarranted. 

 

I don't think him being a baseball player or making any particular amount of money means he should be attacked as a person.  

 

And, most importantly, I think it accomplishes nothing.

[KirbyDome89]

So for the record, criticism of an individual's character, which only those closest to that player (this doesn't include fans, media, and likely not even all teammates) can attest to is on the table. But criticism of production on the field, which every fan, media member, and team official has unlimited access to is off limits. 

 

Makes total sense....

[David HK]

 

Yeah, it might have been something as simple as a young man who never had to worry about staying fit b/c of his talent level learning a lesson this season.  Hopefully, he's good to go in April.

I used to get the same feeling about Hrbek.  All the talent in the world, and if he just took care of himself a little better....  Hrbie did buckle down to a greater degree than Sano has shown so far, and was a tough slugger and a heck of a good fielder for years and years, but still, it was frustrating watching talent that never reached as far as it could have.   Sano hasn't gotten close to where Hrbek was as yet, but a whole world of potential.  The lessons are there, he just needs to frickin' heed 'em.

[David HK]

The number of his weight doesn't matter that much- it's how he carries it and moves with it, and deals with it to make himself a better fielder.  I don't care if he looks Panda-esque out there, as long as he can find better ways to position and prepare himself, and be more accurate with his catching and throwing.  He's never going to have great range, and that's what you give up by putting a power hitter at the hot corner, a traditional position.

 

I grew up watching Killebrew share duty between 1st and 3rd.  For 40-something HRs nearly every year, yeh, you give up some range.  But even in the fog of my latter years, I don't recall Killer kicking the ball around like Sano has done at times.  

 

AND-- I've gotta beat this dead-down-to-its-hooves horse one more time-- he wasn't focused on 3B defense during the hot stove time.  That RF stuff was crap to begin with, and should never have taken place.  Sano should have had his head and his coaching locked in on 3B all winter last year, and shove that OF idiocy.  Molly and Co bear a lot of responsibility for the shoddy fielding we got there from Sano this year, by messing him around from the start.

 

So 20 lbs?  I don't care.  Eat all the pie you want, just take a freakin' ballet class or something, and get that footwork and positioning down.

[Platoon]

One can criticize the player without criticizing the person.

That would leave the determination of the critiquers intent up to each readers perception. Oh, wait..................

[Platoon]

Listening to a national sorts talk radio show many years ago, during a MLB baseball discussion someone was asked who they thought was the most talented player not using his talents to the fullest. The answer was "that's easy, Kent Hrbek"! And Hrbek has admitted since that he wasn't a workaholic by any means. He probably never was called out on it to the extent modern day players are. Less sport talk radio, and no interweb. I always liked Hrbek, and whenever I look at him, I think of what he could have done if he had totally applied himself. Sano has probably far more natural talent. I hope I don't look at him the same way ten years from now.

[TheLeviathan]

 

That would leave the determination of the critiquers intent up to each readers perception. Oh, wait..................

 

Reusse isn't one to mask his intent very well.  I thought it was painfully obvious.

 

Sano may need someone to sit down with him and have a conversation about his work and eating habits.  That someone should be a person he trusts on a personal level, not blasted out in a column by some schmo who has probably talked to Miguel a handful of times.

 

Let's see what next season brings when they aren't jerking him around the field in the name of Trevor Plouffe.  Nothing Miguel Sano did this offseason to make himself not ready for the season even compares to what his own team did to him.

[Darius]

I'm sure he was asked, and instructed to respond this way. What's he supposed to say? "I just want to hit the ball, and don't want to work on becoming a better athlete."

 

I'm not worried about his defense. 1). He doesn't have to play defense. His value lies in mashing baseballs. IMO, he should be a 1B. I'm also OK with him as full time DH, Byung Ho Park be damned. 2). If he does stick at 3B, I'm not overly worried about his abilities. He was out for a year and a half with TJ and the idiotic RF experiment. He still showed the ability to make unbelievable plays, and has the best arm in the game. Nolan Arenado, who I think is the top defender, would look shaky fundamentally at times if he took a 2 year hiatus at the position.

 

Sano's defense at 3rd should be issue #79 on the laundry list of concerns around Twins baseball entering 2017. I'm much more concerned with figuring out the bullpen and rotation, the catching position, the shortstop position, what to do with a fading Mauer, figuring out Berrios, getting the MLB club on the same page with the farm system, finding a competent GM.....and many more. A few errors here or there at 3B isn't hurting them team at all relative to some other things.

[bird]

 

One can criticize the player without criticizing the person.

 

 

 

But...but....wouldn't that be dehumanizing? 

[bird]

 

Exactly. If it "happens all the time" then it's not worth mentioning.

Instead, I think certain media members have turned this into a season-long narrative to stoke the fan base against him (it's working). It's unfortunate.

 

 

Three things: One, it happens all the time, all over the league, and it's mentioned, all the time, all over the league. Two, no one is "against" Sano. That's ridiculous. Let's stop with this nonsense that certain media members set out to cause harm to Miguel Sano. Three: It's about Sano instead of someone else who also could have been more dedicated because it's Sano. Would we be on comment #80 if it were Robbie Grossman? 

[bird]

 

So does everyone else.  I'd bet Reusse has said it himself a few times.  Not sure what that matters.

 

 

Sano said he needs to lose weight two years in a row because his playing weight matters. His weight has an effect on his athletic abilities. Sano knows that, the trainers know it, his coaches know it.

 

If Reusse's only observation (not attack) was that Sano could have dedicated himself to taking more balls in RF and not mentioned the weight thing, would you then concede that Reusse didn't assault Sano's character? Is your attack on Reusse the person as opposed to Reusse the columnist (see what I did there?  ) based solely on his comments about Sano's failure to deliver on what he knew was the goal regarding his weight? Keep in mind that Reusse the person not the writer has taken plenty of shots about his weight over the past, oh, 45 years or so. And these pot shots had nothing to do with any promise Reusse made to lose weight, and I doubt his writing suffered prior to his eventual dedication to losing weight. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Three things: One, it happens all the time, all over the league, and it's mentioned, all the time, all over the league. Two, no one is "against" Sano. That's ridiculous. Let's stop with this nonsense that certain media members set out to cause harm to Miguel Sano. Three: It's about Sano instead of someone else who also could have been more dedicated because it's Sano.

Fair. But I'm noticing that all this losing has caused a messed up media culture that turns its fans against its best players. Maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there. But look at how many people dislike Mauer. For what? I have drank the anti-Mauer koolaid myself. Perkins is getting the business too from people like Morris now. People are already turning on Sano. If Sano becomes full time DH, how many chocolate cakes will he eat in the clubhouse between innings if he's not in the field? Reusse and LaVelle will surely investigate for us.

 

On a side note, I do like how Provus and Gladden generally have Sano's back as a young third baseman, but also call it like it is when he makes an error.

 

Maybe in a roundabout way the added personal scrutiny will help to motivate Sano. Even if this offseason for him is a repeat of last offseason, I'm still making him my starting 3B going into spring (I haven't gotten a call back from St. Peter about my PBO application, so don't set that in stone yet).

 

Would we be on comment #80 if it were Robbie Grossman?

 

I sincerely hope not.

[jimmer]

Find if humorous that people feel Sano is being attacked on a personal level for his lack of conditioning (when his job is that of a professional athlete and being in shape is part of the JOB)yet personal attacks on Mauers character in regards to preparing himself for the season has been happening to Mauer for years with few showing outrage about that.

[Jham]

 

I don't think him being a baseball player or making any particular amount of money means he should be attacked as a person.  

 

And, most importantly, I think it accomplishes nothing.

These aren't personal attacks.  No one's called him a liar, a jerk, or an idiot.  Nothing being said is an attack or even an insult with the exception of the word "diva" which may or may not be warranted.  IF Sano doesn't like the criticism, he can always prove his doubters wrong by performing on the field, or working harder off the field. 

Attacks are like saying Collin Kapernick is faking his donation of a $1 million to charity because he doesn't like the troops.  Or saying John Rocker is a moron for calling out ethnic minorities on NYC subway cars.  Or saying Torii Hunter is an A-hole bigot and homophobe for supporting his church's stance (basically all catholic's) on gay marriage. These criticisms are different because they don't effect performance.  Weight, focus, and practice habits DO effect performance.  See the difference?  

[TheLeviathan]

 

These aren't personal attacks.  No one's called him a liar, a jerk, or an idiot.  Nothing being said is an attack or even an insult with the exception of the word "diva" which may or may not be warranted.  

 

So you listed a bunch of specific personal attacks that weren't there, than show that, in fact, there was a personal attack and gloss over it?  

 

There is no difference.  Was Reusse mixing personal attacks with some things that might be valid?  Maybe, but the personal attack was certainly part of it.  He was calling the kid's character into question and it is totally unnecessary and it only serves to turn the fan base against him or change their opinion of him as a person.

 

If his work habits need to be corrected, they should be corrected by his employer.  Not some random a-hole with a newspaper column.

[mikelink45]

I believe this is a filler - no news, nothing with any substance, but when you lose 100 games what else can you write?

[Jham]

 

So you listed a bunch of specific personal attacks that weren't there, than show that, in fact, there was a personal attack and gloss over it?  

 

There is no difference.  Was Reusse mixing personal attacks with some things that might be valid?  Maybe, but the personal attack was certainly part of it.  He was calling the kid's character into question and it is totally unnecessary and it only serves to turn the fan base against him or change their opinion of him as a person.

 

If his work habits need to be corrected, they should be corrected by his employer.  Not some random a-hole with a newspaper column.

I mean, Ruesse is a sportswriter, so perhaps it kind of is his job... such that perhaps he should be somewhat shielded from personal attacks for publishing sourced information that his readers probably want to know....  Irony aside, I'll continue to maintain that Ruesse's article was not a personal attack, at least not to me.  It's cool if you read it another way.  We clearly see personal attacks for work-related tasks very very differently...