Vargas Movin' On Up... And Out? Riverbrian- This one's especially for you!

[Woody Wants Wins]

Lets stop the Arcia comparisons.  He is 10 for 77 in his most recent games.  Vargas has improved and has done better at making contact.  Plus he is a switch hitter.  Vargas needs to be involved next year 5 games a week in a Twin uniform.

[Mike Sixel]

Park is also nearly 30......

 

If I was the new regime, I'd try to showcase him, I guess, and deal him next year.

 

As for Mauer, yes, it would be cool if they came to an injury settlement of some kind, but I have my doubts.

[Craig Arko]

Would definitely prefer Vargas to Park; not sure how that will all shake out. Probably need to see who the new Front Office team will be first.

[TheLeviathan]

Vargas, with the effort and dedication he has put in to change his approach, has earned a shot at the DH role next year.  We want players to be wililng to work and improve, we should reward them when they do.  

 

And Vargas clearly has.

[Brandon]

I think reduced playing time next year for Mauer is fine.  start him 2 or 3 times a week at either 1B or DH and have him come off the bench the others.  That can give him 350 or so plate appearances.  He does have an ideal bench bat.  And he provides good insurance in case of injury or ineffectiveness of others. while I know he wont be a regular C again it would be nice if he played his last game at C. 

[dxpavelka]

 

I'm a firm believer that once the cancer that is Mauer is gone, the team will use that money to sign a top notch FA ace and we will return to the dominance that his attendance on this team for so many years stopped us from achieving.

I'm a firm believer that you may be high.

[gunnarthor]

 

Vargas, with the effort and dedication he has put in to change his approach, has earned a shot at the DH role next year.  We want players to be wililng to work and improve, we should reward them when they do.  

 

And Vargas clearly has.

Slightly off topic but this is one of the things that really ticked me off about Molitor this year.  Arcia busted his butt in the offseason, both offensively and defensively, but he never got a real shot.  Constantly yanked in and out of the lineup.  Never making more than 5 starts in a row.  Sure, Arcia probably would have failed. His warts too big to overcome but he was a former top hitting prospect who deserved that chance.  Vargas doesn't even have that pedigree so I'm not sure Molitor is going to give him an extended chance.

[jimmer]

I'm a firm believer that you may be high.

or just over the top sarcastic.

[Bill]

Maybe Vargas can catch on days that Suzuki is DHing.

[howieramone2]

 

Vargas, with the effort and dedication he has put in to change his approach, has earned a shot at the DH role next year.  We want players to be wililng to work and improve, we should reward them when they do.  

 

And Vargas clearly has.

You're right, let's trade Sano.

[stringer bell]

I haven't often wished for a guy to retire. I did for Torii and I am glad he did. At least we've seen Kepler for more than half the season. I now wish that Mauer exits, for the good of his team and what is left of his legacy. The longer he goes on as James Loney, the less we will remember what a great player he was in the Metrodome years.

 

Vargas' season has been interesting, to say the least. He's been very good for the Twins, not so much for the Red Wings. He seems to have made the adjustments necessary to succeed as a major league DH. I said in another thread that IMHO he has put himself in front of Park if that is the competition to be the alternate 1B and primary DH.

 

On another topic raised here, I'll give the organization some slack in their handling of Arcia. From what I've seen, he can't handle high heat or lay off breaking stuff. IMHO, that is one too many holes to cover and it means that for all of his hard work last offseason, Oswaldo Arcia will never amount to a substantial baseball player, despite early success and a really good minor league pedigree.

[TheLeviathan]

 

You're right, let's trade Sano.

 

We'd be selling low on Sano to trade him.  That's ma ybe the only idea I've heard that would be worse than "Let's make him an outfielder!"

[Kwak]

 

We'd be selling low on Sano to trade him.  That's ma ybe the only idea I've heard that would be worse than "Let's make him an outfielder!"

Catcher?

[TheTruth]

 

Vargas, with the effort and dedication he has put in to change his approach, has earned a shot at the DH role next year.  We want players to be wililng to work and improve, we should reward them when they do.  

 

And Vargas clearly has.

 

Agree.

 

The Twins aren't exactly the 1927 Yankees. Vargas is showing more than enough to deserve a shot at more ABs for the Twins.

[old nurse]

 

Well, if directionally.....he is nearly number two......isn't the approximation he's pretty darn good, and should be part of the future?

If Vargas regresses next year he will be an ancient 26 year old losing value.  Trade them when their value peaks has been the motto.

[bird]

 

When Park is thrown in the equation, that's where the picture gets fuzzy. Are we casting out Park after 1 season? 

 

 

Pretty much, yes.

[jokin]

 

WAR is not meant to be a perfectly precise indicator of a player’s contribution, but rather an estimate of their value to date. Given the imperfections of some of the available data and the assumptions made to calculate other components, WAR works best as an approximation.

 

That is from the definition of fwar. 

 

Joe Scmiidt now has credibility?

 

Shouldn't you be beating the drum of selling when the player's value may be the highest?

 

More misconception mania....? Has anyone said that WAR is gospel?- I even alluded to that with my comment about what is WAR good for, perhaps you missed that? Since Schmidt and his minions hang around Twins' management on a daily basis, isn't it likely that what they think of Vargas, and combining those inside sources public and private comments with how he's been used has likely sunken through to just about anybody who reports on the Twins on a daily basis?

 

Incidentally, I have never advocated Vargas being moved, my drum beating is in noting quantifiable information about relative value, and the fact of how out of favor Vargas has been considered by Twins management for the last 2 years (demoted twice and benched, even when he was producing at a rate superior to the alternatives on the Twins' roster).

 

In point of fact, I have been pointing out that the Twins pulled the plug on Vargas in May of 2015.

[jokin]

 

Pretty much, yes.

 

We can only hope...

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see the new front office trade Park this offseason just to remove him from the equation.

 

The return would be minimal but it's the kind of thing new regimes do: remove questionable players to clear room for their own roster strategy.

 

In short, I'm not worried about Park/Vargas playing time.

 

I agree, but I think personally that Park/Vargas is better than Vargas/Mauer/Park.

 

Call me crazy.  It's likely the wrong decision. 

[jokin]

 

 

I haven't often wished for a guy to retire. I did for Torii and I am glad he did. At least we've seen Kepler for more than half the season. I now wish that Mauer exits, for the good of his team and what is left of his legacy. The longer he goes on as James Loney, the less we will remember what a great player he was in the Metrodome years.

 

 

Well stated. For years during the transition to 1st base, there was hope that Mauer could aspire to a poor man's (or perhaps a bit better than that) Mark Grace level of production. Sadly, we didn't know that we would only for the most part get the Diamondbacks version of Grace before Grace finally called it a career.

[jokin]

 

 

If Vargas regresses next year he will be an ancient 26 year old losing value.  Trade them when their value peaks has been the motto.

 

Motto? Whose motto? Certainly not so much under the Twins under the expiring regime.

 

As far as Vargas' value, it's been gradually dissipating, by design, for a couple years already.

 

Signing Park in the offseason told every other team in the league that the Twins held Vargas in little, if any, regard.

[jokin]

 

Well, if directionally.....he is nearly number two......isn't the approximation he's pretty darn good, and should be part of the future?

 

Which was exactly the point of the OP....

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Motto? Whose motto? Certainly not so much under the Twins under the expiring regime.

 

As far as Vargas' value, it's been gradually dissipating, by design, for a couple years already.

 

Signing Park in the offseason told every other team in the league that the Twins held Vargas in little, if any, regard.

 

Vargas was pretty bad last year, so having Park as a backup plan doesn't really change his value much. He never really had value at the end of 2015.  That said, he's reclaimed a bit of it, but now there's a real problem in that Park and Vargas deserve more PT than Mauer (though for different reasons). 

 

I'll never fault the Twins for adding talent, even if (as I said early on in the Park thread) it doesn't make a ton of sense given the org needs.  That said, the real issue now is that based on what I've seen of Park and Vargas, Mauer is the odd man out, and I don't see that happening in reality, even with a new regime. 

[jokin]

 

Vargas was pretty bad last year, so having Park as a backup plan doesn't really change his value much. He never really had value at the end of 2015.  That said, he's reclaimed a bit of it, but now there's a real problem in that Park and Vargas deserve more PT than Mauer (though for different reasons). 

 

I'll never fault the Twins for adding talent, even if (as I said early on in the Park thread) it doesn't make a ton of sense given the org needs.  That said, the real issue now is that based on what I've seen of Park and Vargas, Mauer is the odd man out, and I don't see that happening in reality, even with a new regime. 

 

Vargas was actually very good in May, 2015- he was by far the best Twins hitter for that month even as he was summarily, and curiously, demoted. He appeared to have made the necessary adjustments from his slow start in April, but it was pretty obvious that Molitor never wanted him in the first place, and wanted him out no matter what.

 

Many of us said Park was a waste of money at the time of the signing, especially when those few available FA dollars needed to be directed towards actual, current, gaping, yawning needs elsewhere. And especially after the GM identified those needs as a top priority and then did just the opposite by signing yet another unproven, aging overseas player base on who knows whose say-so... and that needless addition had to be as yet another PR sop- signing a slugger who had played all of his career in bandbox stadiums against mostly suspect and/or AA level pitching.

 

The Park signing really helped to seal Ryan's ultimate downfall.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Thank You Jokin. I do appreciate the gift.

 

 

If you don't consider anyone named Dozier.

 

Kennys Vargas has been out best hitter this year.

 

It should be all about earning playing time and proving yourself right now and I don't know what else he has to do.

 

Joe Mauer with two starts to Kennys one at Citi Field is backwards.

 

If I had to choose between Vargas and Molitor. I'd choose Vargas.

how do you keep Mauer, Sano, and Vargas on a team with 12-13 pitchers? How do you get down to 11 pitchers on this team for two seasons? I can't answer either of those questions, but I'd really like the Twins to keep Vargas and play him regularly.

[kab21]

There are three reasons that Vargas isn't DH next year

A) Sano physically can't play 3B (small possibility) - even with Plouffe injured, Sano still doesn't play every day. EVEN THOUGH I am one of Sano's biggest detractors (or realists) defensively, you just put him out there (unless injured) because that is the best mix of talent for this roster

 

Vargas stops Vargas - He completely falls apart after a very promising season. We have unfortunately seen this before with young players.

 

C) Someone else (like Park) shows that they are substantially better

 

Vargas at DH next year WILL be part of my offseason plan.

[Riverbrian]

 

The time has come that cutting Mauer is probably in the best interest of the team.  There is no way the old regime would have cut him but maybe the new regime will make those hard decisions.  Of course, you do have to wonder if the new guy wants to start by cutting the best know player, and local boy who always conducted himself as well as you could ask. 

 

Mauer can still win some games for us. I'm ok with him on the roster especially if the manager shows some creativity... but... I certainly don't want to hear that Vargas can't play because Mauer is there. Especially if Vargas is out hitting him like Vargas is doing. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

 

Shouldn't you be beating the drum of selling when the player's value may be the highest?

I believe most of the drum beating has been about players who are having unsustainable career stretches or aren't part of the future. Selling high on those players is a smart move for a rebuilding franchise.

[Riverbrian]

 

When Park is thrown in the equation, that's where the picture gets fuzzy. Are we casting out Park after 1 season? 

 

Park has to throw himself into the equation first. So far he has thrown himself out of the equation. 

 

If he does... lucky us. 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

 

If I had to choose between Vargas and Molitor. I'd choose Vargas.  

 

Just for clarification

 

I meant to type Molitor.

 

Mauer isn't preventing Vargas from playing time. Molitor is.