What if Sano's 3B defense doesn't improve

[nokomismod]

I apologize if there has already been several discussions around this topic, but I think that the timing of Plouffe returning and possibly being put on waivers during the month of August makes this a good talking point.

 

What if the Twins move Plouffe which most of us expect, and Sano continues to be a butcher at 3b? Is the backup plan to have Escobar play 3b and Polanco play SS? That puts below average fielders at 2B (Dozier) and SS (Polanco).

 

I know players often times show significant improvment on the defensive side, but something about Sano's defensive numbers in the minors and what we have seen this year make me think his position might end up being 1B or DH.

 

[Vanimal46]

Then Polanco or someone will be plan B at 3B. I refuse to write off Sano playing there after 28 MLB games there.

 

This Twins hot take of Sano being a terrible fielder who will never figure it out is getting out of hand.

[jorgenswest]

They can give it next year.

 

His weakness at 3B is not a weakness other teams can exploit. He handles bunts adequately. His arm is strong. He does make errors on routine plays more often than most. His bat combined with the bats at DH and 1B can make up for that deficit.

 

I don't think 1B helps much. He will make errors on routine plays there also. The Twins need to plan to give him 3B next year. He will get better. He missed 2014 to injury. He spent much of 2015 at DH with the Twins. He spent the following off season and spring and first two months of 2016 in RF. The last time he had regular play at 3B over a season was 2013.

[Kwak]

We would need to know the directives from the top--payroll limits, time frame, definition of "winning" and the relative value of pitching to hitting to give a meaningful answer. It all comes down to what to value 3B defense. It is established that there is a logjam at 1B/DH, but those positions are projected to provide the bulk of the offense so a position (3B) may have to accept substandard defense.

[Major League Ready]

Give him the remainder of this year and next year.  Address it if its still an issue at the end of the 2017 season.  I would add that there should be a plan.  That plan and its requirements should be agreed to by Sano, his representation, and the twins.  The Twins should be addressing this with Sano and his agent.  Playing 3rd reasonably well is probably going to require an effort similar to what Koskie did to become a very good 3B.  Is Sano willing to put for that effort.  Keeping in great shape would also help.  Is Sano willing to make this effort? If not, then the Twins should perhaps accept he is going to be a DH and conversely Sano and his agent should understand that's probably the outcome and then everyone can plan accordingly. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I apologize if there has already been several discussions around this topic, but I think that the timing of Plouffe returning and possibly being put on waivers during the month of August makes this a good talking point.

 

What if the Twins move Plouffe which most of us expect, and Sano continues to be a butcher at 3b? Is the backup plan to have Escobar play 3b and Polanco play SS? That puts below average fielders at 2B (Dozier) and SS (Polanco).

 

I know players often times show significant improvment on the defensive side, but something about Sano's defensive numbers in the minors and what we have seen this year make me think his position might end up being 1B or DH.

In my opinion, Sano sticks at third until he's played there consistently for 100 games. Then evaluate and make a decision.

 

Also, I'm not quite ready to call Dozier a below average fielder. He's having a down year and he's getting older but he's right on the fringe of average, sporting a defensive ranking of 15 out of 24 qualifiers on Fangraphs. And there's still over 1/4 of a season left to play.

 

He's no longer a plus defender, though. That's for certain.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Give him the remainder of this year and next year.  Address it if its still an issue at the end of the 2017 season.  I would add that there should be a plan.  That plan and its requirements should be agreed to by Sano, his representation, and the twins.  The Twins should be addressing this with Sano and his agent.  Playing 3rd reasonably well is probably going to require an effort similar to what Koskie did to become a very good 3B.  Is Sano willing to put for that effort.  Keeping in great shape would also help.  Is Sano willing to make this effort? If not, then the Twins should perhaps accept he is going to be a DH and conversely Sano and his agent should understand that's probably the outcome and then everyone can plan accordingly. 

 

Agree 100% with this post.

[Willihammer]

Miguel's fielding percentage in the majors is now equal to what it was in the minors (.902). That equates to roughly 50-55 errors over a full season. Its a tall order to ask Molitor to put up with that for an entire season, especially if they're competitive. That said I agree Sano should be plan A but Mauer and Polanco should take reps at third too as backup plans. Mauer especially, because it would be great if Polanco could stick at short (I still have no read on his defense).

[drivlikejehu]

Fangraphs had an article showing that Dozier's chances this year have been unusually difficult, in a way that means his defensive metrics are underrating him.

 

Speaking of which, Sano's 3B metrics are fine, way better than Plouffe's. He has made a lot of errors, but then again, the OF situation put him in a bad spot. I don't think there's really much of a problem.

[nokomismod]

 

Miguel's fielding percentage in the majors is now equal to what it was in the minors (.902). That equates to roughly 50-55 errors over a full season. Its a tall order to ask Molitor to put up with that for an entire season, especially if they're competitive. That said I agree Sano should be plan A but Mauer and Polanco should take reps at third too as backup plans. Mauer especially, because it would be great if Polanco could stick at short (I still have no read on his defense).

I noticed that too that in ~7 years of professional ball he is at around .900. I feel better about letting Plouffe go, with Polanco, Escobar and possibly Mauer as plan B options if Sano's defense doesn't improve next year.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I noticed that too that in ~7 years of professional ball he is at around .900. I feel better about letting Plouffe go, with Polanco, Escobar and possibly Mauer as plan B options if Sano's defense doesn't improve next year.

Between Polanco and Escobar, I think the Twins have enough athleticism to cover third base.

 

Though any move of that kind puts short in a dicey situation.

[nokomismod]

 

Between Polanco and Escobar, I think the Twins have enough athleticism to cover third base.

 

Though any move of that kind puts short in a dicey situation.

So would there be any scenario where you would consider keeping Plouffe for 2017(even to trade him before next year's deadline)? What if Dozier is traded and Polanco slides to 2B, Escobar to SS, and Plouffe, Sano, Mauer do the 1B, DH, 3B rotation (let's pretend Park doesn't exist).

[Mike Sixel]

 

So would there be any scenario where you would consider keeping Plouffe for 2017(even to trade him before next year's deadline)? What if Dozier is traded and Polanco slides to 2B, Escobar to SS, and Plouffe, Sano, Mauer do the 1B, DH, 3B rotation (let's pretend Park doesn't exist).

 

Any scenario? Sure....

 

Likely scenario? No, not at all.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

So would there be any scenario where you would consider keeping Plouffe for 2017(even to trade him before next year's deadline)? What if Dozier is traded and Polanco slides to 2B, Escobar to SS, and Plouffe, Sano, Mauer do the 1B, DH, 3B rotation (let's pretend Park doesn't exist).

Eek, I don't know but I learn toward "no".

 

1. Plouffe isn't worth $9m to the Twins, which is about what he'd cost next year.

 

2. Sano needs to play the field and Plouffe has no positional flexibility that isn't covered by several other players on the roster.

 

3. Polanco needs to play. That can happen through a Dozier trade but I think that's unlikely.

 

4. Escobar probably needs to play, which means at least one, probably two, players need to go this offseason.

[Linus]

Man does he have a strong arm. He throws absolute BBs out there

[dxpavelka]

 

Then Polanco or someone will be plan B at 3B. I refuse to write off Sano playing there after 28 MLB games there.

This Twins hot take of Sano being a terrible fielder who will never figure it out is getting out of hand.

It this Twins hot take or the fans hot take?

[jimmer]

Why does Escobar have to play?   I mean, other than utility IF?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Why does Escobar have to play?   I mean, other than utility IF?

"Probably needs to play" is the wrong wording. "Likely to play" is a better way to put it.

 

Escobar is the only guy on the roster who can handle short without making our eyes bleed. He's not playing well this year but rated well in the past two seasons.

 

He also hits enough where he's not a drag on the team and occasionally, is actually above average overall.

 

In a perfect world, that's your utility guy... But given the rest of the roster, the only way I see Escobar not playing shortstop is if the Twins pick up an external shortstop... Given how they have other, bigger problems on the roster and the fact Gordon should be in Chattanooga next season, I think that's unlikely.

[Reider]

What if Dozier's defense didn't improve? What if Plouffe's defense didn't improve? What if every players defense doesn't improve? Asking this question indirectly implies that these players had a real chance or opportunity to improve. Sano should be no different.

 

Sano's mobile enough and his arm is more than strong enough to play 3rd base. Unless the Twins keep Plouffe or get another bona fide 3rd baseman, Sano should be given every opportunity in the foreseeable to work on and improve his defense... just like every other player.

[Willihammer]

What if Dozier's defense didn't improve? What if Plouffe's defense didn't improve? What if every players defense doesn't improve? Asking this question indirectly implies that these players had a real chance or opportunity to improve. Sano should be no different.

 

Sano's mobile enough and his arm is more than strong enough to play 3rd base. Unless the Twins keep Plouffe or get another bona fide 3rd baseman, Sano should be given every opportunity in the foreseeable to work on and improve his defense... just like every other player.

Those are interesting cases to use when talking about patience because Dozier and Plouffe came through the system as SS's and were moved to easier positions after fairly limited MLB action- 83 games for Dozier and 55 for Plouffe. A similar level of patience for Sano would be the remainder of 2016.

 

Not sure if that's all you meant in terms of patience or if you thought that should extend into 2017.

[Jham]

 

Those are interesting cases to use when talking about patience because Dozier and Plouffe came through the system as SS's and were moved to easier positions after fairly limited MLB action- 83 games for Dozier and 55 for Plouffe. A similar level of patience for Sano would be the remainder of 2016.

Not sure if that's all you meant in terms of patience or if you thought that should extend into 2017.

The reports from many minor league scouts was that he couldn't stick at 3rd as well.  He's already been moved to the "easier position" so I'd be less patient.  Mauer to 3rd will never happen.  Mauer to DH and Sano to 1st is more likely in my mind at some point.  The argument that Sano can be an average defensive 3rd basemen but couldn't play first with a bigger glove and fewer configurations makes my head spin.  

This is probably going to be extremely unpopular, but I'd consider extending Plouffe for something like 2 years $12mil.  He would probably take FA over that, but you never know.  It would give us the ability to turn Dozier for prospects or hopefully pitching.  This gets Polanco in.  I could roll with Sano, Plouffe, and Mauer on a rotation at 3rd/1st/DH.  I can roll with Polanco at 2nd and Esco at short.  I can roll without Park, Vargas, ABW3, or Palka.  None of whom are better than Plouffe.  Sort of boring, but you get your ideal infield minus Dozier plus Polanco if he Sano works out, and a cheap veteran 3rd basemen if he doesn't.  
 

[Rosterman]

The only way Plouffe would even consider a $12 million two year contract is if he doesn't get arbitration. And he still may be able to garner a $6-8 million one year deal besides. Or he may not.I

 

f he can, indeed, play first, third and the outfield, someone will offer him something. I have my doubts that anyone would go to arbitration with him, and his chances of getting a 3-year or more contract this offseason could be slim or none.

 

That doesn't mean he has value, but he has to rebuild it somewhere next season.

 

For his third year arbitration salary, it is a no brainer NO to have the Twins in that contention. To bring him back for a duo year "cheap" contract, there is always that possibility...but then Plouffe has to ask "where and how much do I play." Like Suzuki, he is probably worth less than what he is making today. One would shake their head if other was offered more (shades of Mike Pelfrey). 

 

But the Twins have to move beyond Plouffe, trust Sano for at least one full season and remain content that Polanco could fill-in if necessary. They might find a fringe AAAA third base guy. And they should be fast-tracking Cabbage or Blankenhorn in everyway possible, jumping them two levels at the least next season.

[Winston Smith]

So would there be any scenario where you would consider keeping Plouffe for 2017(even to trade him before next year's deadline)? What if Dozier is traded and Polanco slides to 2B, Escobar to SS, and Plouffe, Sano, Mauer do the 1B, DH, 3B rotation (let's pretend Park doesn't exist).

NO!!

[Kwak]

Or, trade Sano?

[Major League Ready]

A mediocre 3B defensively that can perform to an 850+ OPS as Sano is capable of doing is a lot more valuable than a DH with the same OPS.  I don't understand the desire of so many to relegate a very good athlete in his early 20s to DH.  If I was Sano's agent, I would be pressing the Twins hard to give him a long leash although I don't really know if agents have that kind of dialogue with the team..  I would also be pressing my client to put in the time and effort working on defense and getting as lean as possible. 

[Major League Ready]

 

 

A mediocre 3B defensively that can perform to an 850+ OPS as Sano is capable of doing is a lot more valuable than a DH with the same OPS.  Let's just say for the sake of discussion that plate discipline Vargas has developed will continue to translate.  You just rendered him of little value to the team.   I don't understand the desire of so many to relegate a very good athlete in his early 20s to DH.  If I was Sano's agent, I would be pressing the Twins hard to give him a long leash although I don't really know if agents have that kind of dialogue with the team..  I would also be pressing my client to put in the time and effort working on defense and getting as lean as possible. 

 

[Mr. Brooks]

He's at DH tonight.

I'm baffled by how they think he's going to improve his defense by DH'ing.

[nokomismod]

 

The reports from many minor league scouts was that he couldn't stick at 3rd as well.  He's already been moved to the "easier position" so I'd be less patient.  Mauer to 3rd will never happen.  Mauer to DH and Sano to 1st is more likely in my mind at some point.  The argument that Sano can be an average defensive 3rd basemen but couldn't play first with a bigger glove and fewer configurations makes my head spin.  

This is probably going to be extremely unpopular, but I'd consider extending Plouffe for something like 2 years $12mil.  He would probably take FA over that, but you never know.  It would give us the ability to turn Dozier for prospects or hopefully pitching.  This gets Polanco in.  I could roll with Sano, Plouffe, and Mauer on a rotation at 3rd/1st/DH.  I can roll with Polanco at 2nd and Esco at short.  I can roll without Park, Vargas, ABW3, or Palka.  None of whom are better than Plouffe.  Sort of boring, but you get your ideal infield minus Dozier plus Polanco if he Sano works out, and a cheap veteran 3rd basemen if he doesn't.  
 

I am completely with you on this Jham. If the Twins are able to resign Plouffe for a team friendly contract, trade Dozier for something valuable I feel better about infield defense heading into next season.

[Halsey Hall]

No way!

[h2oface]

Sano's defense will improve greatly if he gets to play third base. He has shown flashes. Maturity, reps, discipline, focus, and a trusted mentor... and he will be fine.