What if Sano's 3B defense doesn't improve

[Jham]

 

Well I couldn't disagree more, but at least I understand your position now.
For a team with a self imposed salary cap, man that is a lot of money to spend on a 100 OPS+ DH.
I really think you are vastly under selling Vargas/Park if you don't think one of them can reach even that low bar.

I mean Vargas has a career OPS+ of 106 already.

For the record, I'm fine with your route, I'm just skeptical about turning cost savings on one player into a better player on the other end, especially with year's FA class of pitchers.  And I really like Vargas AND Park, but I just think if Plouffe doesn't fit the team, they fit the team even less...Hopefully Sano's about to prove he can stick at 3rd and it won't matter much what we do for DH.

[jimmer]

 

If a ton of people means 3, Ryan, Antony, and Molitor (and I bet Molitor was just pretending), then OK. Maybe there were a couple more that believed it and weren't just being company homies.

I am betting, as long as he gets the chances and the same time that Plouffe got, he will live long and prosper...... at least long enough until his move to first, and then he will be a better first baseman then, too.

oh no, PLENTY of posters here were convinced he was athletic enough to play the OF just fine. let's not pretend there weren't.

 

but I hope your beliefs about his defense become fruitful.

[h2oface]

.......If Plouffe is let go for nothing, his spot in the lineup will almost certainly be replaced by a worse hitter. Why sacrifice a decent hitter (and capable fielder) to plug someone in who is a worse hitter (with worse defensive ability)? This is even assuming Sano can actually play 3rd.

 

Unless we really believe Park/Palka/ABW3/Vargas are BETTER hitters by a wide enough margin to make up for the lack of defensive value, then I have to say, letting Plouffe walk for nothing makes no sense to me. Plouffe will not cost an arm and a leg, we can even go 1 year with him if we want. Letting him walk just so Sano feels more comfortable seems like a fairly delusional way to support the notion that Sano can still be a good/great/average/adequate option at 5.

Polanco could be a better hitter. Plouffe's .230-.240's average and declining homers? I don't really think that he will really be missed.

[Mr. Brooks]

For the record, I'm fine with your route, I'm just skeptical about turning cost savings on one player into a better player on the other end, especially with year's FA class of pitchers. And I really like Vargas AND Park, but I just think if Plouffe doesn't fit the team, they fit the team even less...Hopefully Sano's about to prove he can stick at 3rd and it won't matter much what we do for DH.

Vargas and Park fit better with the team because they are younger, make significantly less money, and have several more years of team control.

Those things have value on a team with a self imposed salary cap.

 

If Plouffe was making the league minimum and Vargas was about to get a bump to 12 to 14 million, I'd be keeping Plouffe and moving Vargas.

[h2oface]

Seems like only last year Plouffe was a 2.5 WAR guy after being a 3.6 WAR guy the year before. Now he's a complete garbage player because he's been hurt? Things sure turn quickly.

Come on jimmer. Nobody has said or even inferred that Plouffe is garbage. Sometimes there are guys like Morneau or Sano that come along......

[jimmer]

 

Come on jimmer. Nobody has said or even inferred that Plouffe is garbage. Sometimes there are guys like Morneau or Sano that come along......

People are suggesting he has no trade value.  People are suggesting he should just be non-tendered. People have said he's not good at all.  The word garbage hasn't been used to describe him though, you're right.

[Jham]

 

Polanco could be a better hitter. Plouffe's .230-.240's average and declining homers? I don't really think that he will really be missed.

You're exaggerating a bit.  But you're right.  He may not be missed.  To me, it's a tough call.  I would let Dozier be the catalyst.  If you can move him for pitching, do it.  If not, non-tender Plouffe unless he gives himself his service.  I've said, I can't see keeping both.  Plouffe is the easier and more obvious move.  But I'd explore alternatives in order to improve the staff or even the farm system.  But we may already have Dozier with no luck.  Non-tendering Plouffe is certainly the more likely outcome, and would not be a move I'd disagree with.  Dozier is a fine player too, after all.

[h2oface]

Vargas and Park fit better with the team because they are younger, make significantly less money, and have several more years of team control.

Those things have value on a team with a self imposed salary cap.

 

If Plouffe was making the league minimum and Vargas was about to get a bump to 12 to 14 million, I'd be keeping Plouffe and moving Vargas.

Park is not really that "younger". In fact, Park turned 30 to join Plouffe as old in July. ;-)

[Mr. Brooks]

Park is not really that "younger".

No but Vargas is a lot younger.

[Jham]

 

Vargas and Park fit better with the team because they are younger, make significantly less money, and have several more years of team control.
Those things have value on a team with a self imposed salary cap.

If Plouffe was making the league minimum and Vargas was about to get a bump to 12 to 14 million, I'd be keeping Plouffe and moving Vargas.

 

I guess I don't see Plouffe as overly expensive.  I would not go a $1 over $12 mil for 2 years.  So money aside, perhaps a big aside, Plouffe offers much more defensive value and probably as much offensive value.  I mean, we'll have places to save money.  We're only going to keep 1 or none of Santiago and Milone.  Would I rather have Plouffe than either of them....  Hard to say.  Milone and Plouffe or Santiago?  Right now I'd say Santiago...  maybe...  I guess I'm envious of your confidence.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I guess I don't see Plouffe as overly expensive. I would not go a $1 over $12 mil for 2 years. So money aside, perhaps a big aside, Plouffe offers much more defensive value and probably as much offensive value. I mean, we'll have places to save money. We're only going to keep 1 or none of Santiago and Milone. Would I rather have Plouffe than either of them.... Hard to say. Milone and Plouffe or Santiago? Right now I'd say Santiago... maybe... I guess I'm envious of your confidence.

Plouffe is not a free agent, why would he accept 2/12? He's going to get 12 to 14 million in arbitration.

That is the price if the Twins want him back.

 

And you bring up defensive value.

I'm only speaking strictly for DH.

I've already said go ahead and bring him back if they decide to move Sano to DH.

[Halsey Hall]

He's gotta go!

[jimmer]

I think 12-14 in arbitration is a stretch.  9 or 10 perhaps, but with him being hurt this year and his numbers not shining this year, 12-14 seems a bit steep.

 

But yeah, 2/12 he wouldn't and shouldn't take.

[Jham]

I think 12-14 in arbitration is a stretch. 9 or 10 perhaps, but with him being hurt this year and his numbers not shining this year, 12-14 seems a bit steep.

 

But yeah, 2/12 he wouldn't and shouldn't take.

Are there automatic raises for service years in arbitration? Twins agreed to 7 mil last year right? Presumably we offered something significantly less. I'm less than sure that he sees his FA year as a big pay day. The season he's had, doesn't give him a lot of leverage in front of a arbitrator if the Twins go low on him... so maybe that's an important question. What is plouffe's value in arb and on the open market. Perhaps i assumed his value is lower than it is.

[Kwak]

I believe it's a certainty that Plouffe is expected a great deal more than $6MM/yr for a contract. To propose that he take that cut is mind boggling.

[Mr. Brooks]

Are there automatic raises for service years in arbitration? Twins agreed to 7 mil last year right? Presumably we offered something significantly less. I'm less than sure that he sees his FA year as a big pay day. The season he's had, doesn't give him a lot of leverage in front of a arbitrator if the Twins go low on him... so maybe that's an important question. What is plouffe's value in arb and on the open market. Perhaps i assumed his value is lower than it is.

He's making 7.25 this year. For some reason I had thought he was making 9, so I agree with Jimmer he's going to get 9 to 10 in arbitration.

 

Yes, raises during ARB years are all but guaranteed and it's not based on only the last season, so this year will hurt him a little but not a lot.

 

There is almost no way Plouffe would even consider something like 2/12. He's going to want a chance at free agency if he has a bounce back season next year.

[jimmer]

 

Are there automatic raises for service years in arbitration? Twins agreed to 7 mil last year right? Presumably we offered something significantly less. I'm less than sure that he sees his FA year as a big pay day. The season he's had, doesn't give him a lot of leverage in front of a arbitrator if the Twins go low on him... so maybe that's an important question. What is plouffe's value in arb and on the open market. Perhaps i assumed his value is lower than it is.

We offered 7M, he asked for 7.9M, and they agreed to 7.25M before it actually went to an arbitrator.

[KGB]

 

True but sending Sano to AAA is not a realistic option.

I've said it before, if they want to just make the move now to DH, I'm fine with that.
But if they are saying they haven't given up on him at 3B, then he needs to be there every day.

I don't think they have given up on him playing third, but they must not be seeing much hope. They are not playing him at third and tried moving him to the outfield.  I think the talk of sending him to AAA is because they don't see the effort needed to improve in the field, since his bat would keep him on the roster.

 

He more valuable at third and helps solve a positional problem with all the DH players on the roster.  But if he not putting in the work to improve and showing results in pregame, it understandable they are not playing him during the game.

[Jham]

 

I believe it's a certainty that Plouffe is expected a great deal more than $6MM/yr for a contract. To propose that he take that cut is mind boggling.

 

Well 2 years $12 mil is mind boggling, What do you think he ends up getting open market?  Last year David Freese got 1 year for $3 million.  Juan Uribe got 1 year $4 million.  Apparently there was no trade value anywhere either.

Freese has OPS .811 this season, btw.  Freese has a better track record, was better this season, and is only 3 years older than Plouffe.  Look at last year's FA market, look at the trade market for 3B, look at next year's FA crop at 3rd.  Exactly how much do you think Plouffe is realistically expected to make?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think 12-14 in arbitration is a stretch.  9 or 10 perhaps, but with him being hurt this year and his numbers not shining this year, 12-14 seems a bit steep.

Yeah. If Plouffe played a full season with a 2-3 WAR, I figured he'd top out around $11m in 2017, more likely $10m.

 

But given his underwhelming season (not just due to injury), I think that number is more like $9m now.

[alarp33]

Maybe it's the injuries, but man does Plouffe look like he's aged in a hurry.  The range which was never great at 3B is practically non existent at this point.  Anyone see the Springer single in the 7th off Tonkin, it was hit softly about 4 feet to Plouffe's left, he couldn't even get a glove on it.  

 

I think if he is non-tendered, which he should be... he'll have a very hard time getting a multi year contract, and would probably be looking in the $3-4 million range like Freese.  

 

He's becoming a borderline 3rd baseman, that might be better off at 1st sooner than later... and a platoon bat. 

[HitInAPinch]

If Evan Gattis can play catcher ( 6' 4"  270lbs ) then Sano can play 3rd. 

 

The big thing with Sano has been and always will be:  he has the potential to out hit any defensive liabilities.  If he can't ( reduced hitting / increase to really horrible defender ) the DH position was created specifically for ballplayer like that.

 

The little we've seen of Sano at 3rd, he's made improvements in his throwing and footwork, i.e.  he's not patting the ball a couple times in his glove before throwing.

 

Unfortunately, because of the time of year, poor record and the need to workout MiLBers at different positions, Sano won't get the full-time workout at 3rd most would like to see.  I liked seeing Polanco playing 3rd very well.  SS, too.  Another young player that can play 3rd should Sano pull another nutty.

 

This team is developing, progressing and moving on.  Some will be left behind.

 

Can't wait for the Aug 1st roster expansion! 

[Mike Sixel]

I have no idea why Plouffe is in the field at this point....if they really want to play him, DH him. But, Sano and Polanco need to be in the field whenever possible, imo.

[Mr. Brooks]

Well 2 years $12 mil is mind boggling, What do you think he ends up getting open market? Last year David Freese got 1 year for $3 million. Juan Uribe got 1 year $4 million. Apparently there was no trade value anywhere either.

 

Freese has OPS .811 this season, btw. Freese has a better track record, was better this season, and is only 3 years older than Plouffe. Look at last year's FA market, look at the trade market for 3B, look at next year's FA crop at 3rd. Exactly how much do you think Plouffe is realistically expected to make?

Plouffe is not a free agent.

If we want him back the price is 9 or 10 million.

We can non tender him, but then he's going to sign somewhere that he doesnt have to compete with a young superstar for his position.

 

Someone might get him for less, but if we want him the price is 9 or 10 million.

[h2oface]

If Plouffe hits the open market, my bet is a bargain 1 year contract under $5 mil and not signed until the start of spring training, or later, as the market waits him out. He was flashing that speed on the base paths last night!

[h2oface]

oh no, PLENTY of posters here were convinced he was athletic enough to play the OF just fine. let's not pretend there weren't.

 

but I hope your beliefs about his defense become fruitful.

I hope so, too! But he needs to get the time at third for it to happen.

 

Maybe I have blocked all the supportive posts of Sano being able to play outfield, then, as I internally dismissed them as not possibly being truthful or serious? I mean, how could they have been?

[Willihammer]

Q: What if Sano's defense doesn't improve?

Molitor/Antony: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Riverbrian]

 

I hope so, too! But he needs to get the time at third for it to happen.

Maybe I have blocked all the supportive posts of Sano being able to play outfield, then, as I internally dismissed them as not possibly being truthful or serious? I mean, how could they have been?

 

I'm raising my hand. 

 

I was supportive of the move to RF.

 

After witnessing it... I would have pulled the plug on it sooner. But I was supportive when I first heard the plan. 

 

My support wasn't based on any inside knowledge of his athletic ability. I have no knowledge of that. 

 

My support was based on "if Sano could play an adequate RF" Paul Molitor having more options of getting his best bats in the lineup. 

 

My Support wasn't wrong in theory. It was just the wrong individual. 

 

 

[h2oface]

I'm raising my hand.

 

I was supportive of the move to RF.

 

After witnessing it... I would have pulled the plug on it sooner. But I was supportive when I first heard the plan.

 

My support wasn't based on any inside knowledge of his athletic ability. I have no knowledge of that.

 

My support was based on "if Sano could play an adequate RF" Paul Molitor having more options of getting his best bats in the lineup.

 

My Support wasn't wrong in theory. It was just the wrong individual.

I just wanted to see that in print twice. Homeward through the haze. ;-)

[Richie the Rally Goat]

People are suggesting he has no trade value. People are suggesting he should just be non-tendered. People have said he's not good at all. The word garbage hasn't been used to describe him though, you're right.

yeah, I might be guilty. I guess I would say Plouffe isn't worth as much to the Twins as his assumed Arb salary says he should be.