What if Sano's 3B defense doesn't improve

[jimmer]

 

Sano's defense will improve greatly if he gets to play third base. He has shown flashes. Maturity, reps, discipline, focus, and a trusted mentor... and he will be fine.

yeah, you say that as if you know that for sure.  My opinion is I really doubt it.  Of course IF he greatly improves he'll be average, cause he's that far bad he is now.

 

And, you know, before this year, he played infield his whole professional career (and before).  I really doubt one ST and less than 40 MLB games in the OF turned him from okay to horrendous. Hard to believe he got that much rust.

[Mr. Brooks]

yeah, you say that as if you know that for sure. My opinion is I really doubt it. Of course IF he greatly improves he'll be average, cause he's that far bad he is now.

 

And, you know, before this year, he played infield his whole professional career (and before). I really doubt one ST and less than 40 MLB games in the OF turned him from okay to horrendous. Hard to believe he got that much rust.

It's not just one ST and 40 games though.

Last year he came up after half a season and played DH the rest of the way.

The year before that he missed after TJ surgery.

 

He's only played 111 games at 3B in the last 35 months. I'm willing to at least give the rust theory a test.

[jimmer]

 

It's not just one ST and 40 games though.
Last year he came up after half a season and played DH the rest of the way.
The year before that he missed after TJ surgery.

He's only played 111 games at 3B in the last 35 months. I'm willing to at least give the rust theory a test.

my opinion, rust doesn't account for that bad of defense, it just doesn't.  but maybe we'll see.

[Mr. Brooks]

my opinion, rust doesn't account for that bad of defense, it just doesn't. but maybe we'll see.

Rustic could be the difference between awful and below average though.

And with his bat, an upgrade to below average would be adequate.

[Brock Beauchamp]

my opinion, rust doesn't account for that bad of defense, it just doesn't. but maybe we'll see.

But it's not only rust. All those missed games were also missed development time.

[jimmer]

 

But it's not only rust. All those missed games were also missed development time.

you and quite a few seem convinced.  hope you guys are right.

 

there were a ton convinced he was athletic enough to play OF too.

[Brock Beauchamp]

you and quite a few seem convinced. hope you guys are right.

 

there were a ton convinced he was athletic enough to play OF too.

I'm not necessarily convinced, just keeping myself open to the idea.

 

And there's enough of a question buried in there that I'd give Miguel a year at third to see what happens.

[KGB]

The 2 or 3 defensive chances he would have during the game isn't going to improve his defense. The hundred of grounds balls he should be taking before the game will. If he is doing the pregame work, I hope they reward him with time during the game. If he isn't doing the work to improve, DH is where he belongs.

[Mr. Brooks]

The 2 or 3 defensive chances he would have during the game isn't going to improve his defense. The hundred of grounds balls he should be taking before the game will. If he is doing the pregame work, I hope they reward him with time during the game. If he isn't doing the work to improve, DH is where he belongs.

That's like saying the 3 or 4 at bats a player might get in a game isn't going to improve their hitting ability.

[Jham]

So if I'm reading many of these posts right, we're supposed to let Plouffe go for nothing just so that the Twins aren't tempted to play Plouffe at 3rd every time Sano screws up.  If this is the case, we shouldn't move Plouffe, we should move the management that can handle developing a young player.

 

If Plouffe is let go for nothing, his spot in the lineup will almost certainly be replaced by a worse hitter.  Why sacrifice a decent hitter (and capable fielder) to plug someone in who is a worse hitter (with worse defensive ability)?  This is even assuming Sano can actually play 3rd.   

 

Unless we really believe Park/Palka/ABW3/Vargas are BETTER hitters by a wide enough margin to make up for the lack of defensive value, then I have to say, letting Plouffe walk for nothing makes no sense to me.  Plouffe will not cost an arm and a leg, we can even go 1 year with him if we want.  Letting him walk just so Sano feels more comfortable seems like a fairly delusional way to support the notion that Sano can still be a good/great/average/adequate option at 5. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

you and quite a few seem convinced. hope you guys are right.

 

there were a ton convinced he was athletic enough to play OF too.

im not certain athleticism is the cause for his ineptitude in the outfield. It seems like Inexperience and rust continues to plague his defensive quality. That being said, there's much better outfield options available that I'm not willing to be patient with his outfield reps. Not many third base options in-house. I don't think Plouffe will want to sign w/ the Twins for what they'll try to sign him for. They've got Sano, so no biggie if they can't sign Plouffe to a team friendly deal outside of arbitration

 

So they can and should be patient w/ Sano at 3b

[jimmer]

 

im not certain athleticism is the cause for his ineptitude in the outfield. It seems like Inexperience and rust continues to plague his defensive quality. That being said, there's much better outfield options available that I'm not willing to be patient with his outfield reps. Not many third base options in-house. I don't think Plouffe will want to sign w/ the Twins for what they'll try to sign him for. They've got Sano, so no biggie if they can't sign Plouffe to a team friendly deal outside of arbitration

I'm sorry.  We're all big fans of Sano, but Sano wasn't good in the OF because he has no business being in the OF.  That's not on him.  That's on the people who made the ridiculous decision to play him there. Some believe he can be an acceptable 3B.  I have my doubts.  Hope I'm wrong.

 

he's an arbitration guy.  they can't just throw a salary at Plouffe and make him accept it.

[Mr. Brooks]

So if I'm reading many of these posts right, we're supposed to let Plouffe go for nothing just so that the Twins aren't tempted to play Plouffe at 3rd every time Sano screws up. If this is the case, we shouldn't move Plouffe, we should move the management that can handle developing a young player.

 

If Plouffe is let go for nothing, his spot in the lineup will almost certainly be replaced by a worse hitter. Why sacrifice a decent hitter (and capable fielder) to plug someone in who is a worse hitter (with worse defensive ability)? This is even assuming Sano can actually play 3rd.

 

Unless we really believe Park/Palka/ABW3/Vargas are BETTER hitters by a wide enough margin to make up for the lack of defensive value, then I have to say, letting Plouffe walk for nothing makes no sense to me. Plouffe will not cost an arm and a leg, we can even go 1 year with him if we want. Letting him walk just so Sano feels more comfortable seems like a fairly delusional way to support the notion that Sano can still be a good/great/average/adequate option at 5.

Your first paragraph, you'll have to show me who said that.

 

Sano needs more games at 3B so we can find out if he can play there or not.

If you want to just go ahead and make the move now, Sano to DH, that's fine, I'm ok with that.

But, if we are going to give him a chance at 3B, then there is no room for Plouffe.

Mauer has 1B locked down, and one of Park or Vargas can give you close enough to Plouffe's offensive production, given the money you save that can go where we really need it - pitching.

 

Plouffe is a slightly below average hitter. 98 OPS+ career.

 

We don't need Plouffe as insurance for 3B, Polanco could play there adequately.

 

Plouffe isn't a player you're ever going to regret losing, his trade value (or lack thereof) should tell you that.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

We don't need Plouffe as insurance for 3B, Polanco could play there adequately.

Plouffe isn't a player you're ever going to regret losing, his trade value (or lack thereof) should tell you that.

Absolutely agree.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I'm sorry. We're all big fans of Sano, but Sano wasn't good in the OF because he has no business being in the OF. That's not on him. That's on the people who made the ridiculous decision to play him there. Some believe he can be an acceptable 3B. I have my doubts. Hope I'm wrong.

 

he's an arbitration guy. they can't just throw a salary at Plouffe and make him accept it.

Agreed, Sano had no business in the OF.

 

That's my point w/ Plouffe. Twins don't have to tender him. They come up with the "Hypothetically Trevor, if we offered 2 years 10 mil, would you take it" and if/when he says no, they'll just non-tender him and let him walk.

[jimmer]

Seems like only last year Plouffe was a 2.5 WAR guy after being a 3.6 WAR guy the year before.  Now he's a complete garbage player because he's been hurt?  Things sure turn quickly.

[Mr. Brooks]

Seems like only last year Plouffe was a 2.5 WAR guy after being a 3.6 WAR guy the year before. Now he's a complete garbage player because he's been hurt? Things sure turn quickly.

I don't think he's complete garbage. I just don't think he has a future on this team going forward.

He's 30 years old, should be fairly easily replaced in the lineup by either Polanco or Vargas or Park, and will be getting a big raise that I'd rather see spent on pitching.

[jimmer]

IMO, the assumption Plouffe has no trade value is based on assuming Ryan ever put him on the hypothetical trade block.  I doubt Ryan did that.  I don't give him the benefit of the doubt that he even considered it, much less did it. He even said he didn't.  Anthony hasn't had an opportunity to do so since he just got back.  In other words, hard to see a player get traded who was never even being considered to be traded.

[Mr. Brooks]

IMO, the assumption Plouffe has no trade value is based on assuming Ryan ever put him on the hypothetical trade block. I doubt Ryan did that. I don't give him the benefit of the doubt and he even said he did. Anthony hasn't had an opportunity to do so since he just got back.

I agree.

But, unfortunately that opportunity is gone.

I have nothing against Plouffe, and in fact was one of the earliest and most vocal supporters back when he first came up and struggled.

He's a solid, league average player.

But, no way I'm bringing him back at that price with this roster.

That money needs to go to pitching.

So, I'd take what I can get, if anything, and use his playing time for younger players.

[jimmer]

 

I agree.
But, unfortunately that opportunity is gone.
I have nothing against Plouffe, and in fact was one of the earliest and most vocal supporters back when he first came up and struggled.
He's a solid, league average player.
But, no way I'm bringing him back at that price with this roster.
That money needs to go to pitching.
So, I'd take what I can get, if anything, and use his playing time for younger players.

I also wouldn't assume any money saved on his contract would go towards acquiring a pitcher really worth getting.  just like the idea that was constantly being floated around that if we just got rid of Mauer that money could be used for an ace.  I think the chances of that happening were zero.

[Mr. Brooks]

I also wouldn't assume any money saved on his contract would go towards acquiring a pitcher really worth getting. just like the idea that was constantly being floated around that if we just got rid of Mauer that money could be used for an ace. I think the chances of that happening were zero.

Nope I wouldn't assume that either, but we are speaking in hypotheticals about what we'd do.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Seems like only last year Plouffe was a 2.5 WAR guy after being a 3.6 WAR guy the year before.  Now he's a complete garbage player because he's been hurt?  Things sure turn quickly.

No he's not a complete garbage player, as you are alleging.

 

Yes things sure turn quickly. Dozier's season turned quickly. Polanco might be showing he's a realistic option at shortstop. Polanco is also a good Plan B at third base if Sano proves he's move valuable as a DH in 2017.

[KGB]

That's like saying the 3 or 4 at bats a player might get in a game isn't going to improve their hitting ability.

Didn't work for Buxton. When you are really bad at something, trying to improve at the highest level is not always a great idea.

[Mr. Brooks]

Didn't work for Buxton. When you are really bad at something, trying to improve at the highest level is not always a great idea.

True but sending Sano to AAA is not a realistic option.

 

I've said it before, if they want to just make the move now to DH, I'm fine with that.

But if they are saying they haven't given up on him at 3B, then he needs to be there every day.

[Jham]

 

Your first paragraph, you'll have to show me who said that.

Sano needs more games at 3B so we can find out if he can play there or not.
If you want to just go ahead and make the move now, Sano to DH, that's fine, I'm ok with that.
But, if we are going to give him a chance at 3B, then there is no room for Plouffe.
Mauer has 1B locked down, and one of Park or Vargas can give you close enough to Plouffe's offensive production, given the money you save that can go where we really need it - pitching.

Plouffe is a slightly below average hitter. 98 OPS+ career.

We don't need Plouffe as insurance for 3B, Polanco could play there adequately.

Plouffe isn't a player you're ever going to regret losing, his trade value (or lack thereof) should tell you that.

So aren't you saying give away Plouffe for nothing so that we can play Sano there all day every day?  Plouffe improved pretty dramatically the last couple seasons.  We invested a ton in the kid to get him to this point.  I think we mainly disagree as to how he easily he could be replaced by any of the guys you mentioned.  

To me, Sano and Plouffe aren't mutually exclusive.  To me, it makes sense to have both since ABW3, Varg, Park, Mauer, and Palka are all incapable of playing 3rd.  I could envision a scenario next season or the season after in which we could use Plouffe and wish we had him for cheap after watching him hit 30 bombs a year in Yankee stadium or Fenway.  

 

Why force him out when you don't have to?  Especially when we have players that are more movable and are even more easily replaceable.  Dozier can bring back a legit pitcher.  Vargas et al may or may not have more trade value than Plouffe, but offer no defensive value to our team.  If Polanco is only as good as Plouffe, and could bring a return, we should at least consider trading him for a haul and keeping Plouffe for cheap.  The Plouffe money invested in FA pitching will get us Pelfrey back.  If you're asking whether I'd rather have Plouffe or Pelfrey...

[Mr. Brooks]

So aren't you saying give away Plouffe for nothing so that we can play Sano there all day every day? Plouffe improved pretty dramatically the last couple seasons. We invested a ton in the kid to get him to this point. I think we mainly disagree as to how he easily he could be replaced by any of the guys you mentioned.

 

To me, Sano and Plouffe aren't mutually exclusive. To me, it makes sense to have both since ABW3, Varg, Park, Mauer, and Palka are all incapable of playing 3rd. I could envision a scenario next season or the season after in which we could use Plouffe and wish we had him for cheap after watching him hit 30 bombs a year in Yankee stadium or Fenway.

 

Why force him out when you don't have to? Especially when we have players that are more movable and are even more easily replaceable. Dozier can bring back a legit pitcher. Vargas et al may or may not have more trade value than Plouffe, but offer no defensive value to our team. If Polanco is only as good as Plouffe, and could bring a return, we should at least consider trading him for a haul and keeping Plouffe for cheap. The Plouffe money invested in FA pitching will get us Pelfrey back. If you're asking whether I'd rather have Plouffe or Pelfrey...

Your first paragraph said so that the Twins are not tempted to play Plouffe at 3rd everytime Sano screws up.

Who said that?

 

Again, if they want to just go ahead and make the move to DH, fine.

But if not, Sano needs to play there every day.

Where is Plouffe going to play if they commit to playing Sano at 3B every single day?

DH? Much of his value comes from being solid at 3b. His bat won't be an upgrade over what Vargas or Park is likely to give you there.

 

1B? Mauer has turned himself into a top 3 defensive 1B in the AL.

 

And, I'd argue that keeping Plouffe gets you a Pelfrey type pitcher. Free his money up and you can combine that with what you were already going to spend on a Pelfrey type and that could get something good.

 

If they go ahead and make the move, Sano to DH, then sure bring Plouffe back as your third baseman.

I don't think they are ready to do that at age 23 though.

So do you really want to spend 12 to 14 million dollars for a 98 OPS+ DH?

[Jham]

 

Your first paragraph said so that the Twins are not tempted to play Plouffe at 3rd everytime Sano screws up.
Who said that?

Again, if they want to just go ahead and make the move to DH, fine.
But if not, Sano needs to play there every day.
Where is Plouffe going to play if they commit to playing Sano at 3B every single day?
DH? Much of his value comes from being solid at 3b. His bat won't be an upgrade over what Vargas or Park is likely to give you there.

1B? Mauer has turned himself into a top 3 defensive 1B in the AL.

And, I'd argue that keeping Plouffe gets you a Pelfrey type pitcher. Free his money up and you can combine that with what you were already going to spend on a Pelfrey type and that could get something good.

If they go ahead and make the move, Sano to DH, then sure bring Plouffe back as your third baseman.
I don't think they are ready to do that at age 23 though.
So do you really want to spend 12 to 14 million dollars for a 98 OPS+ DH?

Short answer...  maybe... if I think he can provide insurance and OPS greater than 100 for a couple years, like he has the last couple years while healthy...
 

[Mr. Brooks]

Short answer... maybe... if I think he can provide insurance and OPS greater than 100 for a couple years, like he has the last couple years while healthy...

 

Well I couldn't disagree more, but at least I understand your position now.

For a team with a self imposed salary cap, man that is a lot of money to spend on a 100 OPS+ DH.

I really think you are vastly under selling Vargas/Park if you don't think one of them can reach even that low bar.

 

I mean Vargas has a career OPS+ of 106 already.

[h2oface]

you and quite a few seem convinced. hope you guys are right.

 

there were a ton convinced he was athletic enough to play OF too.

If a ton of people means 3, Ryan, Antony, and Molitor (and I bet Molitor was just pretending), then OK. Maybe there were a couple more that believed it and weren't just being company homies.

 

I am betting, as long as he gets the chances and the same time that Plouffe got, he will live long and prosper...... at least long enough until his move to first, and then he will be a better first baseman then, too.

[Mr. Brooks]

I don't think anyone is convinced.

Some think it's worth a shot because he's that much more valuable if he can play 3B for a few years.