Meyer optioned back to AAA

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

If anyone else already mentioned this, sorry for repeating.  But it's beginning to be pretty telling of the Major League Management and coaching that an organization that has many players who are top prospects and minor league teams who are winning championships with a core group of guys all are rather mediocre, or below average upon arrival to Minnesota.  The Twins are ruining their young players by messing with their heads, and jerking them around.  Alex Meyer should have been given every chance to get out of that inning yesterday.  He was not pitching well, Milone didn't exactly stop the bleeding. 

 

Alex Meyer was pitching fantastic as a starter in AAA.  Then they called him up the day before his scheduled start, let him sit on the bench for 5 days, tell him he's starting the following Tuesday, and then randomly give him an inning of relief on Friday.  Way to keep him in his routine.  If you did that with a Major League starter he would complain and most likely struggle.

 

I like Paul Molitor as a baseball player, and he might be a good manager to at team of veterans.  But he is not, in my opinion, the right guy to manage a team of young players still learning MLB. 

 

- Rant Over.

Rant appreciated. I don't really like this post, but I sure do "like" it. 

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

 

If anyone else already mentioned this, sorry for repeating.  But it's beginning to be pretty telling of the Major League Management and coaching that an organization that has many players who are top prospects and minor league teams who are winning championships with a core group of guys all are rather mediocre, or below average upon arrival to Minnesota.  The Twins are ruining their young players by messing with their heads, and jerking them around.  Alex Meyer should have been given every chance to get out of that inning yesterday.  He was not pitching well, Milone didn't exactly stop the bleeding. 

 

Alex Meyer was pitching fantastic as a starter in AAA.  Then they called him up the day before his scheduled start, let him sit on the bench for 5 days, tell him he's starting the following Tuesday, and then randomly give him an inning of relief on Friday.  Way to keep him in his routine.  If you did that with a Major League starter he would complain and most likely struggle.

 

I like Paul Molitor as a baseball player, and he might be a good manager to at team of veterans.  But he is not, in my opinion, the right guy to manage a team of young players still learning MLB. 

 

- Rant Over.

Yes, most of this was said, but I believe you painted a pretty good picture of the chronology of events. Making the case that much more damning against the decision makers.

[USAFChief]

 

I don't know if I'd go that far.  I am sure they have disagreements (I know Molitor voted to keep Meyer in the pen this spring, and TR voted starter), but I don't know that there's any evidence that suggests it is any more than that.

 

It does seem like the Kepler and Meyer appearances were rather forced, but I don't  know if that was the result of friction between the Twins decision-makers.  It could just as well be poor decision-making/planning by all involved.

I think the Kepler appearance (and Polanco) were forced primarily by a poorly constructed 40 man that has no "use if necessary" position player options.  

 

Couple that with a disastrous start that leaves everyone from TD posters to Molitor to the front office desperate for wins, and it's not hard to understand why Kepler would be called up, but not play much.  

[clutterheart]

Its just so damn disappointing.  Meyer showed why everyone should be excited for the young man the first two innings.  Then he showed why we should be worried about him in the third.

 

I sure do wish he had the chance to finish the inning out.  Bringing in Milone was just bush league by Moliter and Ryan played his part by sending him down right after the game

 

BUT

 

Ryans not going anywhere

Moliter is not going anywhere

 

I still enjoy following the Twins....

[Seth Stohs]

I'm on board with the thought that it didn't work out well in terms of pitching time and time between innings for Meyer. I mean, for me it's the same thing as Polanco and Kepler being up. With the various injuries and having the ability to shift their rotation, Molitor and Allen likely made up the rotation schedule and then altered bullpen and between start work to make sure people were ready for their next starts.

[jokin]

 

He does need more innings.  That's why he was sent down, right?  I also don't think it's fair to classify him as the future of this team.  He's definitely still just unfulfilled potential at this point.  

I would have liked to see him stay in for a few more batters last night.  I would have liked to see him get one more start to see if he would settle down and throw more strikes.  Me personally.  I don't deny that his pitching has tended to corroborate the concerns of scouts as to his lack if improvement and general wildness.  If I had watched a lot of Meyer, then maybe 2 2/3 may have been enough.

Even if we consider him part of the future future, he's not really part of the present future, so given his long break, given his 30+ pitches the other day, given the 60 pitches last night and the left handed hitter, and the fact that Milone was getting into last night's game anyway, I'm fine with the decision to yank Meyer.  I'd rather see him get another start, but to those who get to see him in AAA, maybe they had seen enough.  Oh well.  

 

I'm still confused as to where the 97-99 mph heat went.  According to some reports he'd re-found it.  I sure didn't see it.  His fastball runs laterally (flat), and he can't control it at 94.  These are huge issues.

 

 

 

I saw it last night. He was consistently at 95 and he hit 98. You can't ask for much more than that, and it's got some decent movement on it too.

 

Au contrere: From this chart below, I see one pitch at nearly 99, 4 nearly 98, 9 at or just under 97.  For the game, he averaged about 96.38 MPH on his FB. And contrary to your observations, the chart suggests that his FB did have some run.

 

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/pfx.php?month=5&day=3&year=2016&game=gid_2016_05_03_minmlb_houmlb_1%2F&pitchSel=543542&prevGame=gid_2016_05_03_minmlb_houmlb_1%2F&prevDate=53&league=mlb

 

 

[amjgt]

Looking through the charts that some referenced above, I found a few interesting things.

 

Berrios and Meyer have almost the same release point. Berrios was a bit more consistent vertically and Meyer was a bit more consistent horizontally. For all the talk of downward plane, the 5'11" guy has the same vertical release point as the 6'9" guy (both lower than Nolasco, by the way).

 

As was mentioned above, the Houston gun was running slow last night. By the looks of things, about 2mph.

 

Meyer got even more squeezed at the bottom of the zone than Berrios did. 

 

Berrios was equally wild outside the zone compared to Meyer. Meyer was missing with sliders and Berrios was missing with curveballs and 2 seamers.

 

I'm going to bold this.....

The contact rate on Meyer's change and slider was 0.0%

 

 

[Danchat]

 

Alex Meyer was pitching fantastic as a starter in AAA.

In 2 starts. This is even smaller than a SSS.

 

Your other points are still true. I don't get why Meyer is getting jerked around.

[tobi0040]

 

I don't know if I'd go that far.  I am sure they have disagreements (I know Molitor voted to keep Meyer in the pen this spring, and TR voted starter), but I don't know that there's any evidence that suggests it is any more than that.

 

It does seem like the Kepler and Meyer appearances were rather forced, but I don't  know if that was the result of friction between the Twins decision-makers.  It could just as well be poor decision-making/planning by all involved.

 

I am going off the two working assumptions. 

 

The GM would only provide the coach guys like Meyer and Kepler if he wanted and expected them to play a heckuva lot more than they did.  

 

The coach would feel some obligation to play top prospects somewhat regularly. 

 

The second one did not happen, so I think it is safe to assume they have different objectives.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I agree with the frustration, but I don't think the Twins are ready to bury the season as just a rebuilding year at this point.  Meyer needs to pitch innings, so he should be starting.  Santana, Nolasco & Hughes are all top 50 starters according to WAR (cheating a little bit - Hughes is 51).

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=sta&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2016&month=0&season1=2016&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&page=2_30

 

Berrios and Duffey are also young and match the type of pitchers you would like to see in the rotation.  Meyer just happen to be on the outside for now.  Hopefully he pitches himself back up, I think he out of options next year so it would be good to see him more in the majors but I don't see the big problem with sending him down to prove the first month in AAA was the real thing.

Can't say I really disagree with much or what you're saying. Meyer has more value as a starter and if that means more time in AAA to become a reliable rotation piece I'm fine with that. It isn't the time spent in AAA that is bothersome, its the Twin's refusal to let some of these prospects fail in order to succeed at the big league level (if that makes sense). They have such a quick hook and are shuffling these guys back and forth its extremely frustrating. The rotation is a bit of a logjam right now. I'm not convinced this is the real Ricky, so who knows with that, but Santana and Hughes should be fine. 

 

I guess the real question is whether this is a lost season. The Twins aren't ready to admit that (honestly they can't at this point) Just to reach last years win total they will have to play like a 90+ win team for the remainder of the season. They've dug such a massive hole I don't see them being able to climb out of it and improve on last years win total. I hope they do turn it around and make a playoff push so we can watch meaningful games in September, it just doesn't seem likely at this point. 

[jimmer]

 

Can't say I really disagree with much or what you're saying. Meyer has more value as a starter and if that means more time in AAA to become a reliable rotation piece I'm fine with that. It isn't the time spent in AAA that is bothersome, its the Twin's refusal to let some of these prospects fail in order to succeed at the big league level (if that makes sense). They have such a quick hook and are shuffling these guys back and forth its extremely frustrating. The rotation is a bit of a logjam right now. I'm not convinced this is the real Ricky, so who knows with that, but Santana and Hughes should be fine. 

 

I guess the real question is whether this is a lost season. The Twins aren't ready to admit that (honestly they can't at this point) Just to reach last years win total they will have to play like a 90+ win team for the remainder of the season. They've dug such a massive hole I don't see them being able to climb out of it and improve on last years win total. I hope they do turn it around and make a playoff push so we can watch meaningful games in September, it just doesn't seem likely at this point. 

Just cause the Twins aren't ready to give up on this season yet doesn't mean they shouldn't.  IMO, it should be all about getting the youngsters playing time.  Oh, and BTW, Ryan did very little to even try and make this a competitive season so he should be all about jumping into full rebuild.

[nytwinsfan]

LOL, Meyer gets pulled last night after 2 brilliant innings and then recovering from a 3-run 3rd to get two outs, but Hughes gives up 6 in 2 innings before he gets pulled at the start of the 3rd. What a joke. If I were Meyer, i'd want/ask for a trade to a team that doesn't give mediocre veterans five times as much leeway as a high-upside rookie.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Just cause the Twins aren't ready to give up on this season yet doesn't mean they shouldn't.  IMO, it should be all about getting the youngsters playing time.  Oh, and BTW, Ryan did very little to even try and make this a competitive season so he should be all about jumping into full rebuild.

What they should do and what they will do are two different things. They finally had a season last year where they didn't lose 90+ games, the FO isn't going to come out on May 4th of this season and say this season is gone. Full rebuild was 2012-2014. The organization has talent, its about developing it now, not starting another rebuild. 

[Reider]

 

He's 26 years old going on 27 and he has zero control.  Trust me he's a bust.

I've been thinking about this lately..

 

I was 15 years old when I started pitching 60 feet, 6 inches (18.4 m) (aka MLB field dimensions) and I know for sure that I never had as much trouble throwing strikes as Meyer does now. Of course I couldn't (and still can't) pitch 97mph, but still.. I bet he's been pitching 60 feet, 6 inches (18.4 m) for over a decade now. If he can't hit the strike zone now, I don't know if he ever will.

[David HK]

 

He actually has an ERA of 1.04 in AAA this year so far, along with a 0.865 WHIP and only 2.1 BB/9.

 

He didn't have a good outing, but really puzzling how he gets pulled when he got pulled, considering the way things were unfolding. 

Well, Molly, in his wisdom, didn't want to let the kid keep getting lit up like that, and potentially lose ground in the midst of a hot pennant race like we're in.   

 

Oh, wait a minute....

[Platoon]

What they should do and what they will do are two different things. They finally had a season last year where they didn't lose 90+ games, the FO isn't going to come out on May 4th of this season and say this season is gone. Full rebuild was 2012-2014. The organization has talent, its about developing it now, not starting another rebuild.

 

Therein lies the problem. They are doing neither. They are stuck in the middle. I will say this, it's too early to find decent trade partners for some of the high buck players. That won't happen until June, nor should it. But if after the ASG, we are still fielding this mess of a roster, someone in the FO needs to go! And the odds of that are??

[alarp33]

 

I am going off the two working assumptions. 

 

The GM would only provide the coach guys like Meyer and Kepler if he wanted and expected them to play a heckuva lot more than they did.  

 

The coach would feel some obligation to play top prospects somewhat regularly. 

 

The second one did not happen, so I think it is safe to assume they have different objectives.

 

That seems to be the general consensus.  I'm not absolving Molitor in anyway, I've been as disappointed in the job he's done so far as anyone (this is what happens when you hire someone with ZERO experience).  

 

But, I think this is taking it a little easy on Ryan.  It has been a poorly constructed 25 man and 40 man roster since basically opening day.  No plan, one move never seems to have the next move in mind. Kepler doesn't even get the call if they had another actualy OF option on the 40man

[Mr. Brooks]

That seems to be the general consensus. I'm not absolving Molitor in anyway, I've been as disappointed in the job he's done so far as anyone (this is what happens when you hire someone with ZERO experience).

 

But, I think this is taking it a little easy on Ryan. It has been a poorly constructed 25 man and 40 man roster since basically opening day. No plan, one move never seems to have the next move in mind. Kepler doesn't even get the call if they had another actualy OF option on the 40man

Not only that, but Terry hand picked Mollie to manage the team.

If they are not on the same page, that is shocking to me, as I guess I just assumed that these are discussions that would take place between the two of them BEFORE the hire.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Not only that, but Terry hand picked Mollie to manage the team.

Did he, though? I'm sure Ryan wasn't firmly against Molitor but if I recall correctly, the Pohlads had direct involvement in his hiring.

 

But this is based off hazy recollection. I could be wrong.

[nicksaviking]

 

Did he, though? I'm sure Ryan wasn't firmly against Molitor but if I recall correctly, the Pohlads had direct involvement in his hiring.

 

But this is based off hazy recollection. I could be wrong.

 

Yeah, Molitor had a LOT of interviews for a guy who was presumed to have the job from the start.

 

It is completely un-Twins like, but I think there is potential for a visible schism to appear between field manager and GM, likely not to fans, but perhaps to ownership. If that occurs, I wouldn't be surprised if we see Gene Glynn take the reigns sometime mid-season.

 

Molitor is going to manage like he played, meaning he's going to make decisions like every day is Game 7 of the World Series. At least this year, Ryan seems to have made several moves that show he is looking at the bigger picture. I think at this point, among the men currently in the Minnesota dugout, Glynn and his history of developing young guys is a better fit, I wouldn't be surprised if Ryan also thinks so, even if he at this time can't do anything about it.

[alarp33]

 

Did he, though? I'm sure Ryan wasn't firmly against Molitor but if I recall correctly, the Pohlads had direct involvement in his hiring.

 

But this is based off hazy recollection. I could be wrong.

 

From a Jon Heyman story back in November 2014..

 

 

"Molitor was the favorite going into the Twins managerial derby, as was suggested here a month ago and at other times, and according to one Twins insider the "hand-picked guy" of GM Terry Ryan, and according to league sources also eventually the first choice of Twins owner Jim Pohlad, as well".

[Jham]

 

Au contrere: From this chart below, I see one pitch at nearly 99, 4 nearly 98, 9 at or just under 97.  For the game, he averaged about 96.38 MPH on his FB. And contrary to your observations, the chart suggests that his FB did have some run.

 

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/pfx.php?month=5&day=3&year=2016&game=gid_2016_05_03_minmlb_houmlb_1%2F&pitchSel=543542&prevGame=gid_2016_05_03_minmlb_houmlb_1%2F&prevDate=53&league=mlb

I was just looking at the fangraphs chart which show 1 pitch at 97, but the vast majority right at 95.  Good heat.  Not necessarily overpowering without location or sink.  I suppose the speed matters out of hand vs. at the plate, and might be different in park, on tv, on the graphs.  If those who scout and watch consistently believe he's throwing as hard now as before his shoulder strains, I'll trust them.  Regardless, I just don't see how he can be a successful starter without taking a little bit off and hitting spots.  Verlander was a master of that.  In his prime, he threw harder later in the game when his feel improved.  He can come out of the pen trying to blow people away, and that might work, but he'd still need to improve dramatically control-wise ala Betances to make that work.  Basically my advice would be to calm down, play catch with your catcher at 91-92.  Reach back for more with 2 strikes or later in the game when your feel improves.  The staying calm part seems to be a real issue.

[tobi0040]

 

From a Jon Heyman story back in November 2014..

 

 

"Molitor was the favorite going into the Twins managerial derby, as was suggested here a month ago and at other times, and according to one Twins insider the "hand-picked guy" of GM Terry Ryan, and according to league sources also eventually the first choice of Twins owner Jim Pohlad, as well".

 

Yeah, I don't think the number of interviews or outside candidates are really evidence that it was not his job to lose from the get-go.  After several 90 loss seasons, the Twins needed to put on a charade of an exhaustive process.  They needed to call in people from outside the organization.  They needed to have multiple rounds, etc.   Companies do this all the time as well. 

 

Given that Molitor was the pick of the GM and owner a year ago and received a three year contract, he likely isn't going anywhere.  I could only hope that the GM and coach get aligned on the priority. I would suspect if Molitor knew the franchise objective was not to win games but to develop 21-26 year old prospects, and he knew his job performance would be graded based on his ability to do that  than I would think he would feel secure about his job and pursue that goal.  If he continues to play veterans, the Twins have two options.  They can fire him or they can trade the veterans and fill the 25 man with young players, a la Billie Beane in Moneyball (if that was an accurate depiction).

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

??? Except for the fact that he has done just that at every level of the minors, and been one of the top pitchers in the league at each level. Why not play the string out all the way here and see if he can continue to develop and then eventually begin to do the same at the highest level?

 

I'd be careful here.  3 appearances in AAA that make him look like he's improved on 2014 doesn't discount that awful year he had in 2015.  I get that there were mitigating circumstances there, but I do think Meyer would have been best served by just staying in AAA personally.  If he's still doing this come July, then yes, by all means, we need to let him work it out in the majors.

[savvyspy]

The way the FO has handled Meyer is an absolute embarrassment. They once again have no plan for one of their top prospects. As a result they put another young player in a position to fail. Does Meyer have some warts? Sure but this FO can't even figure out if they want him to be a starter or relieve any given INNING let alone day. I am a defender of Molitor who I believe, like the entire lineup, has fallen victim to Terry Ryan's ineptitude on managing a roster but even he looks like an amateur out there this season.

 

This team needs to go the Timberwolves route. The entire front office, scouting department, and field staff need to be blown up and replaced. We need completely new eyes on this team to get it moving in the right direction. Terry Ryan no longer deserves the benefit of the doubt. The Twins Way is a complete failure and needs to be put out to pasture to die once and for all.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I've been thinking about this lately..

 

I was 15 years old when I started pitching 60 feet, 6 inches (18.4 m) (aka MLB field dimensions) and I know for sure that I never had as much trouble throwing strikes as Meyer does now. Of course I couldn't (and still can't) pitch 97mph, but still.. I bet he's been pitching 60 feet, 6 inches (18.4 m) for over a decade now. If he can't hit the strike zone now, I don't know if he ever will.

I think it's more than a bit hyperbolic to simply say Meyer "can't hit the strike zone", much less to suggest that he is worse in that regard than an average 15 year old amateur pitcher.  Most of his career, he's had a walk rate slightly higher than league average among professional competitors.

 

Level: Meyer BB% / League BB% 

AAA: 11.1% / 8.6%

AA: 9.7% / 9.1%

A+: 7.1 / 8.2

A: 9.3 / 9.0

 

And now he's had 7 walks in his first 6.1 MLB innings.  Trevor May had 7 walks in his first 2 (!) MLB innings.  Jose Berrios has 7 walks in his first 9.1 MLB innings.

 

Meyer may throw a few wild ones from time to time, but he's probably not trying to throw a simple strike on those pitches.  He is likely trying to achieve a combination of velocity, movement, and location that even an average minor league pitcher can't comprehend, much less your 15 year old amateur self.

[tobi0040]

 

I think it's more than a bit hyperbolic to simply say Meyer "can't hit the strike zone", much less to suggest that he is worse in that regard than an average 15 year old amateur pitcher.  Most of his career, he's had a walk rate slightly higher than league average among professional competitors.

 

Level: Meyer BB% / League BB% 

AAA: 11.1% / 8.6%

AA: 9.7% / 9.1%

A+: 7.1 / 8.2

A: 9.3 / 9.0

 

And now he's had 7 walks in his first 6.1 MLB innings.  Trevor May had 7 walks in his first 2 (!) MLB innings.  Jose Berrios has 7 walks in his first 9.1 MLB innings.

 

Meyer may throw a few wild ones from time to time, but he's probably not trying to throw a simple strike on those pitches.  He is likely trying to achieve a combination of velocity, movement, and location that even an average minor league pitcher can't comprehend, much less your 15 year old amateur self.

 

I just wish the Twins would allow a guy with filthy stuff like this a little lattitude regarding control.  He does have 8 strikeouts in 6.1 MLB innings to go along with the BB's

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I'd be careful here.  3 appearances in AAA that make him look like he's improved on 2014 doesn't discount that awful year he had in 2015.  I get that there were mitigating circumstances there, but I do think Meyer would have been best served by just staying in AAA personally.  If he's still doing this come July, then yes, by all means, we need to let him work it out in the majors.

I think the best two options were to let him continue to work in AAA for another month or two to re-establish himself, or to call him up and start the MLB transition, whether it was bullpen from the get-go or a stretch of starting first like Trevor May.  I think most folks here are frustrated that the Twins chose a third path, which interrupted his work at AAA for a couple odd token appearances in MLB before an virtually predetermined return trip to AAA.

 

Also, sticking him in the bullpen for as long as they did last year probably held him back too, simply from an innings/opportunities standpoint.  He only threw ~55 innings after mid-May.  He probably should have returned to starting no later than July 1, after his brief promotion to MLB (I'm guessing they realized he wasn't going to be an immediate bullpen upgrade at that point, particularly since they didn't even call him up for expanded September rosters after a pretty effective finish for Rochester).

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think the best two options were to let him continue to work in AAA for another month or two to re-establish himself, or to call him up and start the MLB transition, whether it was bullpen from the get-go or a stretch of starting first like Trevor May.  I think most folks here are frustrated that the Twins chose a third path, which interrupted his work at AAA for a couple odd token appearances in MLB before an virtually predetermined return trip to AAA.

Yeah, this. Either keep him in AAA and on a regular schedule or just toss him into the MLB rotation, give him no fewer than five starts, and see what happens.

[tobi0040]

 

  I think most folks here are frustrated that the Twins chose a third path, which interrupted his work at AAA for a couple odd token appearances in MLB before an virtually predetermined return trip to AAA.

 

 

 

Bingo.  You have two paths and the Twins choose a third that is not helping the prospect or the team develop him.

 

For those who think he needs more time in AAA.  He has pitched over 240 innings in AAA. He was arguably the best pitcher in that league two years ago.  Even with the horrible 2015 factored in, his overall AAA line is pretty solid.   3.83 ERA.  His 1.43 WHIP is high, but when you factor in that he is striking out 10.3 per 9 and allowed a very low .5 HR rate, he has managed.  Even if the expectations for him come down and we conclude he is too inconsistent to be the ace we had hoped, what if he was a #3 or #4 starter with flashes of brilliance?  Wouldn't a guy like that on our roster making peanuts be a better use of a roster spot than some of the current guys out there?

 

 

At the end of this year, he will be a few months from turning 27 years old.   I am no expert from understanding how long you control a minor league guy, or one that bounces around.  But if he doesn't break through by about this time next year, I could see his spot on the 40 man evaluated.  He needs to be up here well before that day.