Who put this roster together? TIME TO GO

[alarp33]

 

I think what makes Ryan a good GM is that he has built up three groups of minor leaguers, that he was able to keep the window open longer than any other low payroll GM, that his view of building with youngsters is the norm now. 

 

They haven't won a single playoff game in over 11 years. That's a hell of a "window"

[gunnarthor]

 

Which I actually said in this thread, that part of why they are bad now is on Smith.....and yes, 100% yes, Ryan didn't have people to trade because of when Ryan was GM. You don't trade first and second year players usually. 

That makes no sense.  The last players acquired by Ryan (in the draft) were:

2007 - Revere (traded by Ryan 2012)

2006 -Parmelee, Benson, Robertson, Valencia (****ty draft)

2005 - Garza, (traded by Smith), Slowey (traded by Ryan 2012) Duensing (a solid enough draft class)

2004 - Plouffe, Perkins (both still with Twins, both solid enough players)

2003 -Moses (never made it), Baker (injured in 2012 and released), nice hit though.

2002 - Span (traded by Ryan 2012), Crain, Neshek (both allowed to leave as FA under Smith)

 

Other than 06, those were solid enough drafts.  The talent drain wasn't b/c of Ryan.

[gunnarthor]

 

They haven't won a single playoff game in over 11 years. That's a hell of a "window"

It's almost like you purposefully ignored the context of my post.  

[USAFChief]

 

It's almost like you purposefully ignored the context of my post.  

What context?

 

They've won one (1) playoff series under Ryan.  

 

They went into post season games with Jason Tyner at DH.

 

Hard to call that any kind of window.

[nokomismod]

I don't think the Twins will ever fire Terry Ryan, but I am hoping he decides to walk away from the game this fall and the Twins bring in some fresh blood.

 

Why did I have somewhat high expecations for this team? I guess I thought the starting pitching would be decent (possibly the best since ~07). I also made a mistake in thinking the young guys were ready to take the next step. Instead it feels like it make take some of them 2 years to figure it out and a few of them (Dozier and Plouffe are probably at their peak).

[Shane Wahl]

I am not sure how deep into this I want to go because of the potential for warning points coming from criticizing Twins management and the status quo, but some of us have been pretty consistent and not moving goal posts at all: stop bringing in marginal older players, stop trading away every CF the team has, stick with the youth, convert starters into relievers instead of relying on soft or soft-ish throwing MRs around age 30, and when things are bad for awhile . . . the *top* has to be held accountable. It took quite awhile for Gardenhire's dismissal. How long for the accountability bell to ring for those above him in the organization?

[spinowner]

 

Nothing against TR as a person but he hasn't made this team better in his tenure. Its time for a new direction.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I certainly disagree. In my opinion this team (and the entire organization) is much better than what we had at the end of the 2011 season when Ryan took over.

[nokomismod]

 

I am not sure how deep into this I want to go because of the potential for warning points coming from criticizing Twins management and the status quo, but some of us have been pretty consistent and not moving goal posts at all: stop bringing in marginal older players, stop trading away every CF the team has, stick with the youth, convert starters into relievers instead of relying on soft or soft-ish throwing MRs around age 30, and when things are bad for awhile . . . the *top* has to be held accountable. It took quite awhile for Gardenhire's dismissal. How long for the accountability bell to ring for those above him in the organization?

I agree with what you are saying except Gardenhire was not the problem. Do you think Gardenhire wanted to part ways with Torii Hunter, Koskie, and Ortiz? Gardenhire got very good performance with the players he had in my opinion. Since 1991, Terry Ryan has been responsible for two very long draughts of talent.

[USAFChief]

 

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I certainly disagree. In my opinion this team (and the entire organization) is much better than what we had at the end of the 2011 season when Ryan took over.

I would strongly concur.

 

But I think:  1)  that's a low bar to measure against, 2)  TR bears at least some responsibility for the shape of the org at the end of the 2011 season, and 3) I'm not sure he has the org in position to be serious WS contenders any time soon, and 4) I don't trust him to make moves that might be necessary to get into serious WS contention.

[Pardon My Dinger]

Most people don't vote or don't care, voting and the political system is a sham. Doesn't mean you don't feel certain ways about things.

That's a good point. I withdraw my statement.

[Twinsoholic]

As spring training progressed, who thought that the Twins hitters except for Mauer and Escobar would be as horrible as they have been? I suspect that most people imagined that the 2016 Twins would be a pretty good team.  

 

These first 9 losses are a historical anomaly for the Twins (not for the Orioles, of course).

 

Since baseball is a game of averages, the odds are good that the deathly offense will go from being offensive in once sense to offensive in another sense. 

 

Now there is always the possibility that the starting pitching will go South if the offense picks up. I agree that signing Murphy is not likely to help much. I don't see the upside to his joining the team unless it is to let Buxton go to AAA and mature more (assuming that Keplar can stay and play center and hit better than Buxton has. I hope the outfield is not Sano, Murphy, and Rosario, but who knows?)

 

I agree with those who criticize the bullpen make up and the rotation make up. Ryan got into this fix with the long term contracts to Nolasco, Hughes, and Santana. Maybe he can trade Hughes or Santana this year. If we are lucky Nolasco pitches well enough for Ryan to trade him in or before July.

 

I like Plouffe but would rather have Sano at 3rd. If there was not a huge return for Plouffe, then package him with a prospect or two to find a reasonable deal. Dozier, when he hits, hits like an outfielder. Why not try what the Royals did with Gordon. Put Dozier in a corner outfield position. Put Polanco at 2nd base. He is a better defender than Dozier. He is a major league-ready hitter. Dozier is going to play better outfield than Sano IMO.

 

Dump Fien and bring up Chargois or Burdi when he comes off of the DL.

 

Make sure Suzuki does not get enough plate appearances for his option to vest.

 

The hitters need to practice patience, and their timing will come around, What we are seeing so far is an anomaly.

 

 

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I am not sure how deep into this I want to go because of the potential for warning points coming from criticizing Twins management and the status quo, but some of us have been pretty consistent and not moving goal posts at all: stop bringing in marginal older players, stop trading away every CF the team has, stick with the youth, convert starters into relievers instead of relying on soft or soft-ish throwing MRs around age 30, and when things are bad for awhile . . . the *top* has to be held accountable. It took quite awhile for Gardenhire's dismissal. How long for the accountability bell to ring for those above him in the organization?

 

I've said before that I wasn't sure he was the man for the job beyond this season.   That assumed a natural progression of the young guys and a bit more established core.  I think I echo what Chief said that I'm not sure he's the man to take you from a decent team to a WS contender.  That's somewhat more loose depending on the development of the core.

 

On the flip side, a massive step backwards this year (and I'm not ready to concede that just yet as they had bad stretches in 2015 as well) would definitely mean in my opinion that the premise of this is true.  I would just hope that whomever was brought in to run things came from outside the org.  They need some fresh blood in the ord.  I like what they did with Neil Allen, unfortunately, it seems as though the hitters have gotten a bit confused about his K message thinking it applied to them instead of the pitchers.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I agree with those who criticize the bullpen make up and the rotation make up. Ryan got into this fix with the long term contracts to Nolasco, Hughes, and Santana. Maybe he can trade Hughes or Santana this year. If we are lucky Nolasco pitches well enough for Ryan to trade him in or before July.

 

 

This really cannot be emphasized enough.  What I find interesting is that all those long term contracts are what was screamed for at TD for years.  Ryan finally went out and did that, and look what we got.  One decent one (so far) in Santana.  An OK one in Hughes...and well, we really don't need to go over the pain of the other one again, do we?

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

Good news is that Pat Dean dominated the 'Twins Way' in AAA today! 8 innings of 1 earned run ball....without a single strikeout. Seems like that is the type of performance profile that could push him in front of Berrios, Duffey, or anyone else to get promoted. 

 

On the other hand, Ex-Twin Scott Diamond got the win for the bad guys. But, he had too many strikeouts at 5, so glad we got rid of him. 

 

Too snarky? I kid. At least this means our AAA defense must be pretty good, right. 

[Twinfan & Dad]

Plain and simple this roster is flawed. Seven of nine regulars are free swingers that are not good at situational hitting. By looking for value from trades of Plouffe and Dozier and replacing them with Sano at third and Polanco at second. This move alone eliminates 2 spots in the order of the power with little contact approach. We still are left with Sano,Mauer,Rosario,Buxton and Park that will strike out higher than the norm. We didn't trade Perkins when he had value so why make the same mistake with Plouffe and Dozier. If we get back some pieces that can help us move forward I'm all in. As far as pitching the mistakes have been well documented but with Gibson, Santana, Berrios and hopefully Duffy along with the power arms a year or two away in the minors, I'm more optimistic. You can look at Houston and Pittsburgh as examples of teams where ownership has decided to stay under 100 million but still able to move in the right direction with lineups comprised of youth and vets. If Hughes, Nolasco and Milone pitch well maybe a contender will come calling. Even if we can unload 2 of 3. If we are in for a long season let's do it with youth and see what we have.

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

 

Plain and simple this roster is flawed. Seven of nine regulars are free swingers that are not good at situational hitting. By looking for value from trades of Plouffe and Dozier and replacing them with Sano at third and Polanco at second. This move alone eliminates 2 spots in the order of the power with little contact approach. We still are left with Sano,Mauer,Rosario,Buxton and Park that will strike out higher than the norm. We didn't trade Perkins when he had value so why make the same mistake with Plouffe and Dozier. If we get back some pieces that can help us move forward I'm all in. As far as pitching the mistakes have been well documented but with Gibson, Santana, Berrios and hopefully Duffy along with the power arms a year or two away in the minors, I'm more optimistic. You can look at Houston and Pittsburgh as examples of teams where ownership has decided to stay under 100 million but still able to move in the right direction with lineups comprised of youth and vets. If Hughes, Nolasco and Milone pitch well maybe a contender will come calling. Even if we can unload 2 of 3. If we are in for a long season let's do it with youth and see what we have.

I have been commenting about the free swingers on the club and in the minors for quite a while now. I also have been on the same boat with Dozier and Plouffe. Don't wait until it is too late.

 

I like Dozier and he is a good player, but definitely not a guy you cannot part with. He is no superstar. He is relying in pull power-just enough line drive homers. With just a little off his bat speed those becomes, doubles and outs, and then just outs. Without the power, what is Dozeir? He is not going to improve his defense at this age and things are likely to go downhill fast once he begins his decline, which might come soon. 

[USAFChief]

Help is on the way:

 

http://www.startribune.com/twins-to-sign-vetreran-outfielder-david-murphy-plan-to-shake-up-roster/375714251/

[Twinfan & Dad]

Not quite what I had in mind USAFChief. Lol Is Murphy a better option then what we had with Sweeney? ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! The patient needs a transplant but maybe we can put a band-aid on it for now.

[Craig Arko]

[howeda7]

+1. This is Terry Ryan's 19th season as Terry Ryan's 19th season as Twins GM. The first seven were a disaster. 4 of the last 5 have been a disaster. Thanks for the decade in between, but It's time to go already.

Do you know what's cliche and aggravating? Twins fans giving a lifetime pass to management for making the playoffs a couple of times a decade ago in a poor division. Some of you almost deserve to be watching bad baseball. For the rest of us, it's painfully obvious that the front office needed a clean sweep five years ago. 

 

[TheLeviathan]

For those bristling at this coming after an ill-timed 9 game stretch here, I'd suggest that a large part of the angst here has been building for some time.

 

And, at least in my case, is also fueled by the near certainty that no matter how bad this team is the only person that has the ability to fire Terry Ryan is Terry Ryan. 

[Guest]

Normalize this offense with RISP and the Twins are 3-5 at worst.

This is just a guess, but it's hard to have normal RISP when you have astronomical KRISP.

[Platoon]

Sure, Buxton, Park, and Sano flailing away at pitches is going to hurt the team... But what is frustrating me the most is their ability to get on base when it "doesn't count" and their complete incompetence when it "does count".

 

And while I'm also pissed at Molitor for being embarrassingly out-coached (that Rosario sac last night was Little League ****), most of my anger is directed at the players because they're the ones failing to execute time. and time. and time again when it matters most.

 

If those players were also failing at the same rate with the bases empty, then it's more of a clear indication the front office screwed up and picked the wrong players. But they're not failing with the bases empty.

Something I don't understand about managing in the bigs, or at least the Twins version. Giving a Rosario the option to bunt at all. If you, the manager, think it's not a great idea, then don't five that sign. Whether we like it or not, Molitor likes the bunt! And after 30 years in organized baseball. That isn't going to change.

[Platoon]

Sorry to use you as another example of the cliche Twins fan again Brock. But I also hate it when Twins fans blame the players for failure, but give all the credit to management when they are successful. Baseball is a f$%*ing hard sport. None of us would do any better in that situation. 

 

I'm mad and frustrated with the lack of progress of the young hitters. Sure, they may be struggling because of lack of hard work, in which case they would deserve our scorn. But who am I, as an outsider, to speculate on a player's work ethic? And then wouldn't the coaching staff to blame for lack of motivation? This entire team (ex mauer and Escobar) seems to have regressed with contact and plate discipline from last year. If it was one or two isolated incidents, then sure it may be the player. But it's not. The only common thread here is the coaching staff. 

 

I'm mad at year, after year, at trying to fit square pegs into round holes (Sano in RF), and hope against hope that a high risk/reward player can establish himself at a critical position with no back-up plan (Buxton). I'm mad at year after year of mind-bogglingly sub-optimal roster construction (May in the bullpen; Tonkin and Arcia on the roster, but never used). I'm mad at many missed opportunities of failing to sell off players at their high point on a rebuilding roster. I'm mad at rushing "toolsy" outfielders with questionable contact skills to the majors before they are ready (Hicks, Buxton), yet have a veteran fetish at other positions (Suzuki over Murphy, keeping May and Berrios out of the rotation, the entire bullpen every year) both being a detriment to the team and the development of the young players.

 

Well spoken.you have a roster with no leadoff hitter, no pure 3 hitter, Trevor Plouffe is your cleanup hitter, and with the exception of possibly May, no shutdown RP. And I might as well add, a catcher who couldn't throw Brock out even on a pitch out! while there could be discussion over whether last year was an aberration or not, there doesn't seem to be a doubt the ridiculous May carried them through the entire year. If you attempt to build a team on offense, you are going to get streaky results. It's pretty much the same in all sports. And this is a streak. Some day they will win 6 in a row, and everyone will go YEAH. But the next losing streak is just around the bend. That's offense for you!

[Platoon]

No, I don't think so.  I'm pretty sure my liberal bonafides are better than anyone else on this forum. I think those of us who support Ryan tend to view things in big pictures and those who don't want to focus on little things, which is why the goal posts keep getting moved.  It's frustrating.

 

If you are talking about those who want a change made because of 9 games I agree with you, but I want a change made because of the last 17 out of 20 yrs. Medicrocy reigns supreme. And every time I think he has it right, going somewhat young this year, he does something like the Murphy thing. There seems no rhyme, no reason. You want to play the youth, and you should, go for it. And stick to it, thick and thin. Let's make this simple: If someone can see a path or a plan that is being followed, please feel free to explain.

[alskntwnsfn]

Like Rachel Phelps, I'm now very actively hoping this team continues to lose. Not because I want the team to move to Miami or Portland, but because I think losing in historic fashion is the only way we'll eventually win. Whoa, mind blown! But it's true...  

 

Think about, this club will never get over the hump so long as TR, the front office, and his coaching regime are running the show. Yeah, I know he had good teams during the mid-2000s? Sure, but he couldn't translate one of the best pitching staffs to ever play the game into any serious run (Seriously, best K/BB of all-time). Plus, they did pretty awful with most of their high draft picks and most of the highly touted rookie position players always seemed to be woefully overmatched in the major leagues. 

 

It will take a monumental breakdown to reach a point where even the Pohlads can't defend keeping this front office regime, but at some point... some where out there in the distance, we'll find our event horizon. Then we can blissfully pass through this black hole of a season and hopefully be led by more competent executives and coaches to a championship.

 

http://38.media.tumblr.com/2004b6d6b9038623faac8bca30b36b83/tumblr_inline_n8eh7ctyFj1qz65iu.jpg

 

 

[Kwak]

Rather than asking "Who put this roster together"  ask "who trained thes guys to 'hit' like this?".  Sano was force-fed the belief that he's a slugger and that HRs are the way to $100+MM contracts.  At least he has the body that suggests he could hit lots of HRs.  Park was developed in Korea--and there he was a slugger.  But the rest of them?  Plouffe and Dozier salvaged stalling careers with HRs from being a dead-pull swinger--and were rewarded with a regular position and substantial pay raises.  Everybody noticed!  It became apparent to young players:  hit HRs, get a regular job and many millions of dollars. 

 

What was the "hitting development program" the minors?  Whatever buzzwords one chooses to use in their defintion should include "strikeouts are OK, OBP is overrated, but SLG% is huge--especially HRs".  If Ryan is replaced (fine by me) it is paramount that everyone belong him needs to go--first!

[Pardon My Dinger]

Not a criticism, nor a call to arms, just a progression that seems natural and more and more likely to happen sooner than later: Terry gets a "promotion," Molitor slides into the GM role, Dougie Baseball comes up to manage, and we're on our way. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Not a criticism, nor a call to arms, just a progression that seems natural and more and more likely to happen sooner than later: Terry gets a "promotion," Molitor slides into the GM role, Dougie Baseball comes up to manage, and we're on our way. 

I like Paul Molitor. I think he's a smart guy.

 

But based on the way he has managed this team the past few weeks, I don't want him within 50 feet of the GM's chair.

 

I might actually prefer Rob Antony in the chair before Molitor, that's how much I don't want to see Molitor have that much control over the organization.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I like Paul Molitor. I think he's a smart guy.

 

But based on the way he has managed this team the past few weeks, I don't want him within 50 feet of the GM's chair.

 

I might actually prefer Rob Antony in the chair before Molitor, that's how much I don't want to see Molitor have that much control over the organization.

 

Ya, I don't think Molitor is the right guy either. He LOVES Santana and Rosario. That's not exactly something the makes you think "this guy should be a GM".