Who put this roster together? TIME TO GO

[nicksaviking]

 

Ryan didn't have guys like Shark to trade.

 

Who's fault is that though? This team has been very poor at developing homegrown talent since early this century.

[Mike Sixel]

They feel so good about their OF (MLB and AAA), they just signed a 34 year old to a minor league deal......wow.

[SwainZag]

Last year people wanted TR fired for a horrible staff full of veterans and not promoting Buxton and Sano quick enough.  Does anyone remember the thread about Buxton being sent down after his time on the DL?  Or how many people bashed him for calling up Sano later than he should have?

 

Now, the guys are up and aren't hitting and it's.............TR needs to go!  It's almost comical.

[rghrbek]

 

They feel so good about their OF (MLB and AAA), they just signed a 34 year old to a minor league deal......wow.

 

Daniel Murphy?   Incredible.    I just threw up a bit in my mouth.

[gunnarthor]

 

Last year people wanted TR fired for a horrible staff full of veterans and not promoting Buxton and Sano quick enough.  Does anyone remember the thread about Buxton being sent down after his time on the DL?  Or how many people bashed him for calling up Sano later than he should have?

 

Now, the guys are up and aren't hitting and it's.............TR needs to go!  It's almost comical.

Yeah, this exactly. If the young guys are up and struggling, it's "Ryan rushed them!"  If they sign a vet, it's "you're blocking the youngsters!"  

[alarp33]

 

They feel so good about their OF (MLB and AAA), they just signed a 34 year old to a minor league deal......wow.

 

I'm so confused by this. And Lavelle is saying he will be up very soon to replace one of the starting Outfielders.  

 

If you thought Buxton was ready in March, what has changed in 24 at bats? If you weren't sure if he was ready, why in the hell didn't you have a backup plan a month ago?  Same goes for Rosario.  Why is Arcia on the team if Murphy is needed for some reason?  

 

None of this makes sense. 

[gunnarthor]

 

Who's fault is that though? This team has been very poor at developing homegrown talent since early this century.

Define home grown talent.  Since the Twins were pretty competitive for the first decade of this century, I assume you are cherry picking home grown talent to mean exclusively draft picks made since 2001, correct?

 

I think it's fair to say that the team Ryan took over in 2012 not having Shark on it is probably not Ryan's fault.  

[gunnarthor]

 

I'm so confused by this. And Lavelle is saying he will be up very soon to replace one of the starting Outfielders.  

 

If you thought Buxton was ready in March, what has changed in 24 at bats? If you weren't sure if he was ready, why in the hell didn't you have a backup plan a month ago?  Same goes for Rosario.  Why is Arcia on the team if Murphy is needed for some reason?  

 

None of this makes sense. 

Well, I assume that no one expected Sano's OPS+ 30 to be the high mark among the three.  Rosario looks lost, I'd send him down first.  I imagine the back up plan was Danny Santana (on the DL) and Maestro (not on 40 man roster) and the team might like Murphy more than Maestro?  

 

As for Arcia, I'm sure he'll get some chances but he sucked in AAA last year, clearly isn't in Molitor's good graces, had a bad ST and is a bad fielder.  

[alarp33]

 

Well, I assume that no one expected Sano's OPS+ 30 to be the high mark among the three.  Rosario looks lost, I'd send him down first.  I imagine the back up plan was Danny Santana (on the DL) and Maestro (not on 40 man roster) and the team might like Murphy more than Maestro?  

 

As for Arcia, I'm sure he'll get some chances but he sucked in AAA last year, clearly isn't in Molitor's good graces, had a bad ST and is a bad fielder.  

 

Again, its been 8 games (the 3 outfielders haven't even started all 8).  

 

If you want to talk about OPS+ after 8 games, last year in 91 games Danny Santana's was 44.  

 

Pure panic and a GM that is long past his time

[Twinfan & Dad]

 

So who do we replace and how.

 

Gamble #1 was Park. He is a swinger. He hits for power once he figures everything out. Remember, ALL the ballparks (including Target Field) are totally new to this guy. But our alternatives were three: Vargas, Arcia and Sano. Out of the three, Vargas has experience. Arcia does too, but he's a free swinger. Sano need to work extra hard to keep the league from adjusting to him and his faults.

 

The infield. Mauer is back. But do you replace Dozier with Polanco, who might be able to be groomed to put the ball in play and show some speed. dozier does have speed. he does have power. He does strikeout. Escobar hs been a revelation. Why is he hitting 7th. Of course, would we rather have one guy stranded in an ainning than have him and Mauer bat together and have two stranded.

 

Yes, we could replace Plouffe at third with Sano. Pretty much a swap out on strikeouts. Sano ahs potential, but still learning. We know what Plouffe does, and he does it well, when he does it. But then that would've left us with Arcia and Vargas at DH. So we aren't improving anything.

 

Rosario is not know as the walk king. Buxton is still oevrmatched. Kepler needs more time in AAA. So we replace two of these guys with Quentin or Wheeler and Mastro. Suddenly we maybe have two guys who still strikeout, but maybe not as much. Mastro could maybe humpstart some things with his slap happy put the ball in play and ability to move from base-to-base. But the two discarded spring training choices were coming off of seasons largely sitting.

 

So, would we be betetr of replacing Dozier with Polanco, Buxton with Mastro, Plouffe with Sano, Sano with Quentin, and Park with Vargas/Arcia?

 

Or is it more a simple matter of lineup construction. And working harder with the guys to take more pitches, and maybe try a few different things rather than just swing and miss at the ball. We could field a line-up of pitchers to do that.

 

I am even more interested in what opposing teams are telling themselves as they look at the Twins. "Just throw strikes right away...these guys can't afford to watch the ball go by and if they do, then we get ahead." 

 

Something is not right on the field. You have the cage. You have batting practice. You have Brunansky, Hernandez, Vavra. You have Molitor. You can call in Carew and Kelly and Hunter and Hrbek and Oliva. You can drag Gladden down from the booth. There is no shortage of advice of people who can work with these guys. Heck, you even have Smalley and Laudner lounging around.

 

Park happened. He can add something to the mix that maybe is missing. The other pieces are still works in progress. We have a couple that may be replaceable overtime (Plouffe and maybe Dozier), but I do want Buxton, Arcia, Rosario, Sano, and then Polanco, Kepler, Gordon (and wait until we see Walker swinging away up here) rather than Mastro, other guys looking for a job, the return of Lew Ford, whatever.

 

It is a rare rookie that steps up to the plate and does do everything right. And then Twins have a crop of them. It is frustrating. It is a learning experience. It is almost jokingly funny to be 0-8 with a ton of strikeouts and we can still say "the pitching has been great except for some bullpen blips." 

 

As a fan, I want to be in the clubhouse and hearing the plan, but that is totally unnecessary. What goes on behind-the-scenes is between the management, staff and players. They are trying their darndest to figure it out. In every game, someone ahs to lose (look at the LOOKOUTS, not having the best start either). 

 

When they do figure it out, and if they have the time, I hope Molitor and Company do share their insights...if they have the time. 

 

Just know, folks, it really can't get much worse. 

Looking for value on a trade for Dozier and Plouffe is a start. Sano at third is a liability but removing Plouffe from the line-up and inserting someone who doesn't strikeout 150 times is a step in the right direction. I would also hope that whomever replaces Sano in right would be a upgrade defensively. I know that the Sano experiment in right is in its infancy but I have little faith in its success. Polanco also as a replacement for Dozier could be viewed as an improvement in reducing the all or none mentality. With the trades of Plouffe and Dozier hopefully you get back players that are more well rounded in their hitting approach. This still leaves us with our young core of Buxton, Sano and Rosario who are going to strikeout but they are young and hopefully will improve. With Plouffe and Dozier we already know what we have. We didn't trade Perkins when he had value so lets not repeat the same mistake with these two. It's not like this team is really going to contend.

 

 

 

[rghrbek]

D Murphy

hit .253/.305/.392 from 2013-2015

[SwainZag]

 

 

Again, its been 8 games (the 3 outfielders haven't even started all 8).  

 

If you want to talk about OPS+ after 8 games, last year in 91 games Danny Santana's was 44.  

 

Pure panic and a GM that is long past his time

 

Or is just attempting to light a fire under someone's ass.  Players should know hitting in the mid 100's is not a way to keep their job.  I'm not saying I like the idea of Murphy on the ML roster, but still.

[d-mac]

 

Sure, Buxton, Park, and Sano flailing away at pitches is going to hurt the team... But what is frustrating me the most is their ability to get on base when it "doesn't count" and their complete incompetence when it "does count".

 

And while I'm also pissed at Molitor for being embarrassingly out-coached (that Rosario sac last night was Little League ****), most of my anger is directed at the players because they're the ones failing to execute time. and time. and time again when it matters most.

 

If those players were also failing at the same rate with the bases empty, then it's more of a clear indication the front office screwed up and picked the wrong players. But they're not failing with the bases empty.

 

Sorry to use you as another example of the cliche Twins fan again Brock. But I also hate it when Twins fans blame the players for failure, but give all the credit to management when they are successful. Baseball is a f$%*ing hard sport. None of us would do any better in that situation. 

 

I'm mad and frustrated with the lack of progress of the young hitters. Sure, they may be struggling because of lack of hard work, in which case they would deserve our scorn. But who am I, as an outsider, to speculate on a player's work ethic? And then wouldn't the coaching staff to blame for lack of motivation? This entire team (ex mauer and Escobar) seems to have regressed with contact and plate discipline from last year. If it was one or two isolated incidents, then sure it may be the player. But it's not. The only common thread here is the coaching staff. 

 

I'm mad at year, after year, at trying to fit square pegs into round holes (Sano in RF), and hope against hope that a high risk/reward player can establish himself at a critical position with no back-up plan (Buxton). I'm mad at year after year of mind-bogglingly sub-optimal roster construction (May in the bullpen; Tonkin and Arcia on the roster, but never used). I'm mad at many missed opportunities of failing to sell off players at their high point on a rebuilding roster. I'm mad at rushing "toolsy" outfielders with questionable contact skills to the majors before they are ready (Hicks, Buxton), yet have a veteran fetish at other positions (Suzuki over Murphy, keeping May and Berrios out of the rotation, the entire bullpen every year) both being a detriment to the team and the development of the young players.  

[alarp33]

 

Or is just attempting to light a fire under someone's ass.  Players should know hitting in the mid 100's is not a way to keep their job.  I'm not saying I like the idea of Murphy on the ML roster, but still.

 

Because I'm sure without Daniel Murphy knocking on the door these players would have no idea they should hit better than they did in the 1st week.  

 

Hey, demoting Arcia for not hitting during his 5 game rehab stint last year did wonders for his development, lets see if it works again on other guys!

[longstrangetrip]

I'm as frustrated as anyone about this terrible 0-8 start, but I'm not even close to blaming it on Ryan.  Even though they are underperforming to an extreme degree, I still like the  roster he has put together...give me a power-loaded team over an OBP hit-the-the-other-way team any day.  This team is going to frustrate us from time to time with its K's, but they are also going to hit a lot of home runs.  In some ways they remind me of the 1963-5 or the mid-80s Twins where you could expect a HR from anywhere in the lineup.  the situational hitting is going to improve...it has to... and this team will score a lot of runs.  But gawd it's tough to watch right now.

[d-mac]

 

And now he has Kepler on the bench today, Park back in the lineup.  Can someone please explain to me what in the world he is doing. How does this make any sense with Rodon on the mound yesterday, and Latos today

 

And why the f@%& is Rosario hitting second again? Suzuki or Buxton are literally the only worse options there. Bat Escobar or Mauer second. Honestly, this isn't that hard to figure out. Goin needs to chew out Molitor on his poor line-up construction and love of sacrifice bunting. These are all fireable offenses to me, IMO. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Or is just attempting to light a fire under someone's ass.  Players should know hitting in the mid 100's is not a way to keep their job.  I'm not saying I like the idea of Murphy on the ML roster, but still.

Maybe they should sign Murphy to be an assistant GM, to light a fire under TR's ass?

[d-mac]

 

They feel so good about their OF (MLB and AAA), they just signed a 34 year old to a minor league deal......wow.

 

Murphy is just an older and more expensive version of Sweeney. And they released him. Sweeney is younger and a better defender. And yet people wonder why we get into these situations. The lack of foresight is mindboggling. 

[nicksaviking]

 

Define home grown talent.  Since the Twins were pretty competitive for the first decade of this century, I assume you are cherry picking home grown talent to mean exclusively draft picks made since 2001, correct?

 

I think it's fair to say that the team Ryan took over in 2012 not having Shark on it is probably not Ryan's fault.  

 

The homegrown talent started to dry up around 2004, he was in charge well after that. Aside from Dozier, we don't really have much to show for quality MLB players in the system the past decade. I hope we get the best out of Buxton, Sano, Berrios and the rest, but that's all projection at this point. Even if they do produce, that was a loooooong dry spell.

[d-mac]

 

I'm so confused by this. And Lavelle is saying he will be up very soon to replace one of the starting Outfielders.  

 

If you thought Buxton was ready in March, what has changed in 24 at bats? If you weren't sure if he was ready, why in the hell didn't you have a backup plan a month ago?  Same goes for Rosario.  Why is Arcia on the team if Murphy is needed for some reason?  

 

None of this makes sense. 

 

This is a classic Ryan series of moves. Except this time it's blowing up in his face. Maybe this finally exposes that the emperor has no clothes. Maybe ownership will wise up and clean house. Maybe some good can come from this horrendous start. 

[d-mac]

 

Or is just attempting to light a fire under someone's ass.  Players should know hitting in the mid 100's is not a way to keep their job.  I'm not saying I like the idea of Murphy on the ML roster, but still.

 

Yes, blame the players for lack of work ethic. Stay classy, Ryan choir boys.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Define home grown talent.  Since the Twins were pretty competitive for the first decade of this century, I assume you are cherry picking home grown talent to mean exclusively draft picks made since 2001, correct?

 

I think it's fair to say that the team Ryan took over in 2012 not having Shark on it is probably not Ryan's fault.  

 

The lack of quality players in the majors, after Smith was in control for 3 years, is 100% on Ryan. The lack of veterans to trade is on the GM 5-8 years earlier than any given year, if you assume it takes 3-4 years to come up, and you'd be trading guys in the league for 3-4 years. That lack of veterans to trade is 100% on Ryan.

[SwainZag]

 

Yes, blame the players for lack of work ethic. Stay classy, Ryan choir boys.

 

So when do the players take accountability?  Seems that on TD there is always someone else to blame, unless it's Mauer or Perkins.  Sano and Buxton are struggling?  It's obviously Terry Ryan, Molly or Bruno's fault.  Mauer and Perkins are struggling? It's obviously their lack of conditioning, their off-season work out plans and their attitudes.

 

I am not a "Ryan choir boy."  It just amazes me at how much blame gets thrown around on this site when player's aren't performing.  

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

So when do the players take accountability?  Seems that on TD there is always someone else to blame, unless it's Mauer or Perkins.  Sano and Buxton are struggling?  It's obviously Terry Ryan, Molly or Bruno's fault.  Mauer and Perkins are struggling? It's obviously their lack of conditioning, their off-season work out plans and their attitudes.

 

I am not a "Ryan choir boy."  It just amazes me at how much blame gets thrown around on this site when player's aren't performing.  

 

I think we are posting past each other.

 

NO ONE is giving the players a free pass. But, the FO acquired these players. The team has not won a playoff series in a LOOOOOOOOONG time. I think what some are saying is, since they feel it is ok to cut bad players, when is it ok to cut bad FO people?

[d-mac]

 

So when do the players take accountability?  Seems that on TD there is always someone else to blame, unless it's Mauer or Perkins.  Sano and Buxton are struggling?  It's obviously Terry Ryan, Molly or Bruno's fault.  Mauer and Perkins are struggling? It's obviously their lack of conditioning, their off-season work out plans and their attitudes.

 

I am not a "Ryan choir boy."  It just amazes me at how much blame gets thrown around on this site when player's aren't performing.  

 

So, you don't think that ALL of the position players (ex Mauer and Escobar, yet including Plouffe and Dozier) failing at once is no more than coincidence? Baseball is a f@%$ing hard sport. Players will struggle, especially ones trying to establish themselves. But when virtually all of them struggle at the same time (including Plouffe and Dozier) the players need to take accountability, but those in charge should shoulder no blame for not putting them in the best position to succeed? I've been saying since day one of spring training that Buxton was rushed, not ready, and needed a few months in AAA. That's clearly not his fault is it? Buxton isn't holding a gun to TR's head and forced himself on the roster. Sano wasn't the one moving himself to right field. Suzuki isn't filling in the line-up card, writing himself in the line-up over JR Murphy. Neither is Rosario or Santana when they bat second. The buck has to stop somewhere.

 

I have never, and will never blame players for failure, question their conditioning, preparation, or work ethic. That INCLUDES Mauer and Perkins. To me that is classless. It's what fans of the Yankees and the NFL do. You don't think the players aren't embarrassed by their start? You don't think they care or aren't pressing to win a ballgame? They're probably pressing too much. They need to relax. But then again, isn't that the manager's job set the tone in the clubhouse?

[nicksaviking]

***** Moderator Note******

 

If everyone can't keep their posts objective and on point, there is no reason to keep this thread open as subjective posts on this topic are almost certainly going to be a personal attack on either the GM or other posters on this site, both of which are against TD posting policies.

[Twinfan & Dad]

What I find interesting is that we all are Twins fans or we wouldn't be on this forum and being fans means we get frustrated sometimes. I am frustrated as you can tell by expressing my opinion that the path TR has taken isn't working. The GM OF a sports team is much like a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. If a CEO isn't creating value for its shareholders over a period of time he is fired. The GM of a sports team should be held to the same standards. Nothing against TR as a person but he hasn't made this team better in his tenure. Its time for a new direction.

[gunnarthor]

 

The lack of quality players in the majors, after Smith was in control for 3 years, is 100% on Ryan. The lack of veterans to trade is on the GM 5-8 years earlier than any given year, if you assume it takes 3-4 years to come up, and you'd be trading guys in the league for 3-4 years. That lack of veterans to trade is 100% on Ryan.

Well, they have quality players in the majors already, despite their ugly start.  And I think it's a bit of a exaggeration to blame the 2012 roster (for instance) on Ryan.  Of the players Ryan inherited in 2012, he traded a bunch of veterans - Morneau, Span, Slowey, Liriano and Revere (all acquired under Ryan's previous regime).  

[gunnarthor]

 

 

NO ONE is giving the players a free pass. But, the FO acquired these players. The team has not won a playoff series in a LOOOOOOOOONG time. I think what some are saying is, since they feel it is ok to cut bad players, when is it ok to cut bad FO people?

Because knee-jerk reactions are a really dumb way to run a franchise.  We've been arguing about this for years Mike.  Last year, you made nearly the same comments about Ryan, saying when will we see results.  I told you that I thought last years team looked like a .500 team to me.  You said if they aren't, can Ryan go?  And, of course, I was right.  It was a .500 team last year.  

 

Clearly, Ryan has the rebuild on the schedule most of us supporters thought it would be on.  The slow start to this year - a year most of the pessimists said would be a step back year - doesn't change Ryan's very good rebuild.  

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Well, they have quality players in the majors already, despite their ugly start.  And I think it's a bit of a exaggeration to blame the 2012 roster (for instance) on Ryan.  Of the players Ryan inherited in 2012, he traded a bunch of veterans - Morneau, Span, Slowey, Liriano and Revere (all acquired under Ryan's previous regime).  

 

we won't agree on this......it takes 3-5 years for player to go from drafted (other than truly elite ones) to productive MLB players. If Ryan came on less than 5 years from when he left, the lack of good players would be on his regime. Now, the lack of players in their peak now, those are on Smith's regime. IMO.