Who put this roster together? TIME TO GO

[gunnarthor]

 

we won't agree on this......it takes 3-5 years for player to go from drafted (other than truly elite ones) to productive MLB players. If Ryan came on less than 5 years from when he left, the lack of good players would be on his regime. Now, the lack of players in their peak now, those are on Smith's regime. IMO.

That's simply wrong.  A draft might get you two players.  A team is built up of players from many different drafts (or signings).  Last year the Cubs had 13 players accrue 1 WAR or more.  Some were drafted in 2014 and some were drafted in 2002.  The Twins, under Smith, let the cupboard run bare.  Ryan restocked it.  It's not his fault that the well ran dry after he left.  

[Mike Sixel]

 

That's simply wrong.  A draft might get you two players.  A team is built up of players from many different drafts (or signings).  Last year the Cubs had 13 players accrue 1 WAR or more.  Some were drafted in 2014 and some were drafted in 2002.  The Twins, under Smith, let the cupboard run bare.  Ryan restocked it.  It's not his fault that the well ran dry after he left.  

 

So, Sano, Polanco, Kepler were leaving the cupboard bare? Huh. 

[alarp33]

 

So, Sano, Polanco, Kepler were leaving the cupboard bare? Huh. 

 

Kyle Gibson, Brian Dozier... the list goes on

[Mike Sixel]

I think Rosario was also acquired during his time......and Aaron Hicks.....and Chris Herrmann...

[Mike Sixel]

Michael Tonkin....

[TheLeviathan]

Well, I know this, the start this year hasn't done anything to bolster Ryan's credibility with me.  I think he's a good, solid, make-few-mistakes kind of guy and good for a team rebuilding.  (Though, some of his biggest choices have not, so far, proven to be nearly as good as we'd like them to be.  Hopefully that changes)

 

But taking a team to the next level?  I never thought that was his strength and this offseason was about as mismanaged as I could possibly have imagined.  So, yeah, 0-9 or not my feelings are about the same.

[Mike Sixel]

That's 9 current major league players, in 4 years. 

 

One of whom is a supposed super star (I still think Sano will be). 

[Hrbowski]

You can't give Smith the credit for the guys drafted during his time. Give the credit to the scouts, they are the ones that deserve it.

[TheLeviathan]

 

You can't give Smith the credit for the guys drafted during his time. Give the credit to the scouts, they are the ones that deserve it.

 

If we play that game we might as well not give a GM credit for much of anything.  Even trades come down to scouts and their opinions.

[Hrbowski]

 

If we play that game we might as well not give a GM credit for much of anything.  Even trades come down to scouts and their opinions.

Absolutely.

[Mike Sixel]

The argument made was that Ryan inherited a wasteland of nothingness. I am merely pointing out that is 100% not true. The Smith-led teams were bad because the players drafted before he got there were bad. 

 

The GM is the leader of the whole baseball org. If they aren't winning, that's on him, just like the President of a company is judged on profits. 

[d-mac]

 

Absolutely.

 

The buck stops with no one. Thus sayeth the bureaucracy. 

[Mike Sixel]

To be clear, I don't think the trades made by the Smith regime were good.....I'm not defending Smith, I'm questioning the love for Ryan-led regimes outcomes produced.

[d-mac]

 

Because knee-jerk reactions are a really dumb way to run a franchise.  We've been arguing about this for years Mike.  Last year, you made nearly the same comments about Ryan, saying when will we see results.  I told you that I thought last years team looked like a .500 team to me.  You said if they aren't, can Ryan go?  And, of course, I was right.  It was a .500 team last year.  

 

Clearly, Ryan has the rebuild on the schedule most of us supporters thought it would be on.  The slow start to this year - a year most of the pessimists said would be a step back year - doesn't change Ryan's very good rebuild.  

 

I don't think firing a guy after 17 full years of general mediocrity results qualifies as knee-jerk.

[d-mac]

 

To be clear, I don't think the trades made by the Smith regime were good.....I'm not defending Smith, I'm questioning the love for Ryan-led regimes outcomes produced.

 

Totally agree. I have no problem giving credit where credit is due. No doubt the Smith regime acquired some nice young int'l talent. But the bad far outweighs the good. In both instances.

[d-mac]

Totally off topic, but sort of related... feel free to moderate this post moderators. I've noticed that the pro vs anti-Terry Ryan argument has sort of a political feel to it. I wonder that if the folks defending Ryan tend to innately defer to/ trust the powers that be. Those that oppose, such as myself, tend to resent and mistrust concentrated power. As an example, I consider myself a radical libertarian, nearly straight up anarchist. I suspect many of those who oppose Ryan tend to lean more classically liberal/ libertarian. Those who support tend to be more authoritarian/conservative or authoritarian/progressive.

 

I've been wondering this for a long time now. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Totally off topic, but sort of related... feel free to moderate this post moderators. I've noticed that the pro vs anti-Terry Ryan argument has sort of a political feel to it. I wonder that if the folks defending Ryan tend to innately defer to/ trust the powers that be. Those that oppose, such as myself, tend to resent and mistrust concentrated power. As an example, I consider myself a radical libertarian, nearly straight up anarchist. I suspect many of those who oppose Ryan tend to lean more classically liberal/ libertarian. Those who support tend to be more authoritarian/conservative or authoritarian/progressive.

 

I've been wondering this for a long time now. 

 

I highly doubt it.  See my posts in the political thread   I suspect there's a lot more to this one than someone's personality.  Group think is a problem that occurs on both sides of this debate. 

[gunnarthor]

 

Totally off topic, but sort of related... feel free to moderate this post moderators. I've noticed that the pro vs anti-Terry Ryan argument has sort of a political feel to it. I wonder that if the folks defending Ryan tend to innately defer to/ trust the powers that be. Those that oppose, such as myself, tend to resent and mistrust concentrated power. As an example, I consider myself a radical libertarian, nearly straight up anarchist. I suspect many of those who oppose Ryan tend to lean more classically liberal/ libertarian. Those who support tend to be more authoritarian/conservative or authoritarian/progressive.

 

I've been wondering this for a long time now. 

No, I don't think so.  I'm pretty sure my liberal bonafides are better than anyone else on this forum. I think those of us who support Ryan tend to view things in big pictures and those who don't want to focus on little things, which is why the goal posts keep getting moved.  It's frustrating.  

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

My goal posts have never moved. Last year was a fluke, probably. If they don't win 81 games this year, how many years does the team have to be bad for it to matter? For me, given the lack of playoff wins in his previous tenure, that time has passed. For you, it has not. That's a difference in how we measure success over time, not that most of us on the other side have moved goal posts.

 

 

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

Totally off topic, but sort of related... feel free to moderate this post moderators. I've noticed that the pro vs anti-Terry Ryan argument has sort of a political feel to it. I wonder that if the folks defending Ryan tend to innately defer to/ trust the powers that be. Those that oppose, such as myself, tend to resent and mistrust concentrated power. As an example, I consider myself a radical libertarian, nearly straight up anarchist. I suspect many of those who oppose Ryan tend to lean more classically liberal/ libertarian. Those who support tend to be more authoritarian/conservative or authoritarian/progressive.

 

I've been wondering this for a long time now. 

I Don't vote. I Don't care. I like baseball. 

[Mike Sixel]

btw, I'm probably done. We are just rehashing now, and that's not fun enough for me to continue.

[USAFChief]

 

No, I don't think so.  I'm pretty sure my liberal bonafides are better than anyone else on this forum. I think those of us who support Ryan tend to view things in big pictures and those who don't want to focus on little things, which is why the goal posts keep getting moved.  It's frustrating.  

Little things like more losing seasons than winning ones?  Like never advancing to a WS in two decades?  One post season series won?  Money appearing to be an overriding concern when making decisions?  Caution in the extreme, to the point of paralysis?

 

JMO, but the moving goalposts seem to belong more to the crowd who repeat the "we'll be good as soon as ___________ and __________ get here from A ball" mantra.  There were no shortage of them a couple years ago citing 2015-2016 as the first of multiple great seasons, now many of the same have moved that timeline down the road a couple years.  

 

That's frustrating so some of us, too.

[d-mac]

 

No, I don't think so.  I'm pretty sure my liberal bonafides are better than anyone else on this forum. I think those of us who support Ryan tend to view things in big pictures and those who don't want to focus on little things, which is why the goal posts keep getting moved.  It's frustrating.  

 

Of course classical liberalism and modern American liberalism a two entirely different things.   

 

I disagree with the "viewing the big picture" statement. I am most interested in putting a winning team on the field. And not one that contends for playoff spots. I want a team that competes for championships and dominates the division most years. I think many of the moves Ryan is making will cost this team wins in the future and limit potential. Namely rushing Buxton, Sano in RF, playing Suzuki over Murphy, and keeping May and Berrios out of the rotation over Milone and Nolasco. 

[gunnarthor]

 

My goal posts have never moved. Last year was a fluke, probably. If they don't win 81 games this year, how many years does the team have to be bad for it to matter? For me, given the lack of playoff wins in his previous tenure, that time has passed. For you, it has not. That's a difference in how we measure success over time, not that most of us on the other side have moved goal posts.

You haven't moved the goal posts?  In this thread alone, you've argued that the Twins didn't make a trade like the Cubs with Shark.  When people pointed out that Ryan didn't have a Shark to trade, it was Ryan's fault that the 2012 team didn't have a Shark on the roster.  When people suggested Smith might have failed to give Ryan a good roster, you blamed the roster construction on the GM from 5 years before (which, of course, would suggest that this years bad roster is Smith's fault, but never mind).  

 

[TheLeviathan]

Well said Chief.  And I actually like Ryan, but damn does the "everything is just gonna fall into place soon enough, just you watch" arguments that drive me up the wall.

[d-mac]

 

I Don't vote. I Don't care. I like baseball. 

 

Most people don't vote or don't care, voting and the political system is a sham. Doesn't mean you don't feel certain ways about things. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

You haven't moved the goal posts?  In this thread alone, you've argued that the Twins didn't make a trade like the Cubs with Shark.  When people pointed out that Ryan didn't have a Shark to trade, it was Ryan's fault that the 2012 team didn't have a Shark on the roster.  When people suggested Smith might have failed to give Ryan a good roster, you blamed the roster construction on the GM from 5 years before (which, of course, would suggest that this years bad roster is Smith's fault, but never mind).  

 

Which I actually said in this thread, that part of why they are bad now is on Smith.....and yes, 100% yes, Ryan didn't have people to trade because of when Ryan was GM. You don't trade first and second year players usually. 

[gunnarthor]

 

Little things like more losing seasons than winning ones?  Like never advancing to a WS in two decades?  One post season series won?  Money appearing to be an overriding concern when making decisions?  Caution in the extreme, to the point of paralysis?

 

JMO, but the moving goalposts seem to belong more to the crowd who repeat the "we'll be good as soon as ___________ and __________ get here from A ball" mantra.  There were no shortage of them a couple years ago citing 2015-2016 as the first of multiple great seasons, now many of the same have moved that timeline down the road a couple years.  

 

That's frustrating so some of us, too.

I think what makes Ryan a good GM is that he has built up three groups of minor leaguers, that he was able to keep the window open longer than any other low payroll GM, that his view of building with youngsters is the norm now.  That the Twins didn't win a WS under him is sad but not really surprising.  (And that his detractors ignore the massively uneven playing field he was on is incredibly dishonest). I tend to think that most of those teams overachieved.  

 

As for the last two years, I correctly though last years team would be a .500 team and I thought this years team would be in the playoff hunt. Obviously, this start looks horrible but it doesn't change that we have a really nice nucleus of players.  

[mazeville]

The best move this offseason would have been to keep Aaron Hicks, who would have been the center fielder while Buxton got his AAA time. Sano would be at third. Then you'd have Hicks in Center, Arcia in right and Sano at third. Park at DH, apparently.

 

But the problem isn't walks. It's hits. Mauer, Sano, Dozier and Park are all walking a certain amount. Sano has an OBP of .300. Even Escobar is getting a few walks. They just aren't hitting. Only two players -- two! -- are hitting above .200. It's just a teamwide inability to hit the ball right now. 

 

So I'm not sure what could have been done differently this offseason to prevent all this. It's just so WEIRD.

 

I keep telling myself it's early. But they're 0-9 now. Nobody who loses this much this early goes to the playoffs. Unless things turn around in a real hurry, we are in for a summer of watching a losing team. Again. 

 

Ugh.

[HitInAPinch]

...and the new Twins GM is:  The Violator

 

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMjA4MzE1MjI5MV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwMDk2NjE3._V1_SX640_SY720_.jpg