Mauer: Lack of Training and Overflow of Excuses Catching Up to Him

[fengriver]

Looking at Joe now - he has lost some weight but at no point this year have I looked at him and said he has done all he could to better his body. For those of you that think working out cant improve your numbers then by all means please let all the PED users know they are on the wrong track and that adding White Fast Twitch enhancing exercises to your routine will show no benefits. I was most surprised by Joe's lack of any calf definition.

[Champuckett]

Joe Mauer is not singlehandedly at fault for the Twins poor play the last 4 seasons and mediocre play this season.  I think we can all agree with this.

 

I think we can also agree that being a starting member of the team, he does partly make contributions to either our successes or our failures.  Being a first basemen, there is a certain amount of expected power and general offensive ability at the plate.  Making up nearly 1/4th of the payroll is not insignificant either.  All of these points combined are where the concern comes in.

 

He is hitting nowhere near the level he did up to and during that stellar 2009 season.  At least some of us would like to know why.  This thread tries to pinpoint that.

 

Does his lack of training mean that that this is the definitive reason behind what's going on?  Who knows, but at least we can discuss what has happened here.

 

Mauer has had the owner, multiple GM's, multiple managers, and fellow players defend him any time he is even slightly criticized.  This is to be expected for the most part, but what's unusual is the fans, who generate revenue that makes this team possible, do the same thing.  Not all, but a pretty sizable amount.  Why is this?  

 

Criticism and discussion are healthy, especially if what is happening isn't working.

 

We've got a bunch of issues to be worried about, and Mauer's lack of production is one of them.  It's great to see his on base streak these last couple months, but it would also be nice to see his ba and power production increase as well, some day.  Short of that, a move somewhere in the batting order would be nice.  If that fails, then we start needing answers regarding keeping him so high in the order with such low production at such a premium position.

[glunn]

Moderator note -- if you think that a thread is stupid please don't post in that thread.

[Ncgo4]

Mauer is the highest paid Twin of all time. He is paid because he was an elite athlete. It is absolutely silly to not recognize the value of a rigid training regimen to help an elite athlete maintain his skill level. That said, he has a long term, nearly unbreakable contract and if he chooses to not want to make an off season effort to put in the hours that's his business.

 

Some athletes do it with weights, sweat and a trainer. Some athletes do it with a needle and pills. Others just don't do it. It seems that Joe is a part of the last group, though to be fair, unlike Hrbek an apparently Sano, he at least seem to watch his calories.

 

Enjoy the money, Joe. In baseball it seems you earn it in your early career but you collect it in your declining years. It's just the way it is. I'd buy an island and a big boat, but that's just me.

[theBOMisthebomb]

The guy is getting old and it disappoints the homer MN fan because he is "one of us". Mix in a concussion, outlandish contract, and position change and you have a toxic brew. Joe should be moved down in the order.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

This same exact thread, with all the same links, could also be written about Glen Perkins. Do I like it? Not really. But fair is fair. The supporting anecdotes are out there.

 

Hopefully Mauer and some of the other guys commit to a strength program in the offseason, as suggested in this thread. They will actually feel much better and it would help them get through an entire season healthy and eliminate the competitive advantage other teams have over us this time of year.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Perhaps you should check Hrbek's stats at the same age Mauer is now.

You might need another old fashioned.

Then check Hrbek at 34, and compare THAT to Mauer now.

You might need a double.

Oh, Hrbek was a good player until he hung up the cleats but we're not talking about performance in this thread. It's a hatchet job on Mauer's work ethic, not his performance.

[Dr. Evil]

Looking at Joe now - he has lost some weight but at no point this year have I looked at him and said he has done all he could to better his body. For those of you that think working out cant improve your numbers then by all means please let all the PED users know they are on the wrong track and that adding White Fast Twitch enhancing exercises to your routine will show no benefits. I was most surprised by Joe's lack of any calf definition.

I like this post. He is a long limbed athlete and there should be no question that adding some muscle would help him catch up with fastballs, guide the barrel of the bat to better contact, strike out less and come through the ball with more authority. To me it appears that his vision and pitch recognition are still elite. So, in a very non-attacking and respectful way, I pose the following question. What Joe is doing in the offseason now is getting him what he is currently getting from a productivity standpoint. What is the aversion to showing up at spring training with some extra muscle packed on to that lengthy frame? I want to assume, like many do, that he is willing to do everything in his power to be the best he can be. IMHO he brings a plethora of value to the team but I can't help but feel a little dissapointed that he doesn't add showing up looking jacked at spring training to his list of off season to do's.

[USAFChief]

Oh, Hrbek was a good player until he hung up the cleats but we're not talking about performance in this thread. It's a hack job on Mauer's work ethic, not his performance.

I don't think "hack job" is a fair assesment.

 

BTW, of course we're talking about performance. And I don't really know what Mauer's performance issues can be attributed to.

 

But i dont dismiss ideas out of hand simply because they're unflattering.

[jokin]

 

Mauer has looked solid lately and has stayed healthy all year. The timing of this post is odd.

 

Uhh, here's the slashline during the current 37-game streak:

 

.282/.372/.387  wRC+ 111

 

This current "hot" streak is fairly comparable to Joe's final numbers of his two worst seasons, 2014 and  the"bilateral leg weakness" year, 2011.

 

 

It gets sadder still:

 

Updated 39 game "hot streak" slashline:

 

.268/.364/,369/(.733)   wRC+ 104

 

By contrast- Ben Revere season totals:

 

.304/343/.371/(.713)   wRC+ 97

 

Mauer season SLG is .370... wRC+ 92

 

Mauer SLG during his "hot streak"- and for the season- is lower than Revere's season SLG?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I don't think "hack job" is a fair assesment.

BTW, of course we're talking about performance. And I don't really know what Mauer's performance issues can be attributed to.

But i dont dismiss ideas out of hand simply because they're unflattering.

Implying a former world class athlete is lazy isn't unflattering, it's a hatchet job.

 

Mauer was essentially the same player - plus or minus a few strikeouts - until he received his latest concussion. He hasn't been anything close to the same player since that time. Maybe teams more aggressively shift against him and compound the problem but at the core of the issue, Mauer hasn't been the same guy since he took that baseball to the head. It's not hard to figure out the root cause of the issue at that point. The day before the concussion, he was an .850 OPS player. In the following two years, he's a .750 OPS player.

 

And this argument wasn't presented with any kind of intellectual honesty. It formed a conclusion and then wrote a narrative to fit that conclusion. The user's avatar is "U lift, bro?", for crying out loud.

 

Never mind the title itself, which reads "Lack of Training and Overflow of Excuses Catching Up to Him". That's not an attempt to open an honest dialogue about a potential issue, that's presenting a conclusion based on very limited information.

 

Mauer's problem is that he no longer hits the ball hard. Did he suddenly get old and it exactly coincided with a serious concussion? I can't see that argument presented with any kind of seriousness. Was he lazy before the concussion or did that just magically happen after the incident?

 

Joe Mauer's hard hit ball rate is down ~8% since the concussion. His soft hit rate is up ~7%.

 

That's why Joe Mauer is no longer the player he was before the concussion. He's swinging more often and not hitting the ball as hard as he once did. That seems to me like remnants of concussion symptoms. He doesn't have the hand-eye coordination he once did and it has turned him into a mediocre hitter.

[USAFChief]

Essentially the same except for 2011.

 

The problem with writing everything off to concussion is the same as implying he's lazy...a lack of evidence.

 

Your argument relies solely on coincidence. In fact, the available evidence (cleared to play by physicians, statements that he's symptom free, few days off this year) should indicate at least an open attitude towards the possibility that's not the issue.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Morneau spent diminished years symptom-free as well. As we're finding out by the day with NFL players, concussions are not well understood and their long-term effects can manifest in a variety of ways.

[Ultima Ratio]

Whatever Mauer was has no bearing on who he is (as a player) today.  That kind of induction will not fly.

 

I see nothing wrong with the OP's propositions or conclusion given that we assume Mauer is both correct about his self-assessment of his concussion and is telling the truth that he has no lingering symptoms (of course some may be latent so that's what I mean about being correct in his own assessment).  

 

If that is the case then the other factors are promising causes of his diminishing ability.  I don't see why this is is controversial, other than no one wants to see a super star fall from self-inflicted "coulda, woulda, shouldas."

 

My guess is that it's both concussion and age related, which (if true) makes not keeping the rest of his body as fit as possible a fair target of concern, to say that least.

[DrNeau]

Mauer just spanked a 2-run homer to right center. Love it. Good to see him get ahead in a count and drive a ball. Would love to see more of this. 

[ashbury]

Mauer just spanked a 2-run homer to right center. Love it. Good to see him get ahead in a count and drive a ball. Would love to see more of this. 

Congratulations. You may have begun the follow-on to the "stick a fork in him" meme at TD.

[jokin]

 

It gets sadder still:

 

Updated 39 game "hot streak" slashline:

 

.268/.364/,369/(.733)   wRC+ 104

 

By contrast- Ben Revere season totals:

 

.304/343/.371/(.713)   wRC+ 97

 

Mauer season SLG is .370... wRC+ 92

 

Mauer SLG during his "hot streak"- and for the season- is lower than Revere's season SLG?

 

Mauer just spanked a 2-run homer to right center. Love it. Good to see him get ahead in a count and drive a ball. Would love to see more of this. 

 

I'd like to think things like this thread can help spur him into action  .  Torii Hunter has seemingly come back from the dead, why not Joe, too?

[spinowner]

 

Essentially the same except for 2011.

The problem with writing everything off to concussion is the same as implying he's lazy...a lack of evidence.

Your argument relies solely on coincidence. In fact, the available evidence (cleared to play by physicians, statements that he's symptom free, few days off this year) should indicate at least an open attitude towards the possibility that's not the issue.

There's a fundamental principle in logic called Occam's Razor. In a nutshell, it states that the simplest or most obvious explanation is also the most likely one.

As this applies to Mauer's statistics, the concussion is by far the simplest and most obvious explanation for the fact that he experienced a sudden decrease in his production immediately after it occurred. Aging is far less likely to produce a sudden change like this. The same would be true for maintaining a "lazy" training regimen (which has not been clearly shown to be true, by the way).

Yes, this argument relies solely on coincidence. And the reason the argument holds up is because it's the ONLY coincidence. There was no other event at the time of the decrease in production as significant as the concussion. There was no other event even close to being as significant as the concussion. Does that make it 100% certain that the decrease in production was due to the concussion? Of course not. Am I open to the possibility that there is another reason? Of course. But I think it's very highly unlikely.

[glunn]

It seems to me that none of us has sufficient data to know the relative role of the concussion relative to aging or to a possible lack of proper training.  After reading this thread, I have concluded that there are reasonable arguments and inferences on both sides of this.

 

I wish that a reporter would ask Joe about this to see what he thinks.  Joe's answers might not lead to conclusions that everyone will believe, but we might obtain a better idea of the truth.

[ken]

Mauer has been asked about his concussion and training and said he has no concussion issues and doesn't do a lot of off-season training.  Not sure what proof people need to believe it's not concussion related. 

 

Morneau had a 50% reduction in his hard hit ball rate after his concussion, so a 8% reduction sounds more in line with a slow reduction in skills.  I agree the most obvious reason is probably is the right answer, so why not just believe what Mauer says?

[Dr. Evil]

There's a fundamental principle in logic called Occam's Razor. In a nutshell, it states that the simplest or most obvious explanation is also the most likely one.

As this applies to Mauer's statistics, the concussion is by far the simplest and most obvious explanation for the fact that he experienced a sudden decrease in his production immediately after it occurred. Aging is far less likely to produce a sudden change like this. The same would be true for maintaining a "lazy" training regimen (which has not been clearly shown to be true, by the way).

Yes, this argument relies solely on coincidence. And the reason the argument holds up is because it's the ONLY coincidence. There was no other event at the time of the decrease in production as significant as the concussion. There was no other event even close to being as significant as the concussion. Does that make it 100% certain that the decrease in production was due to the concussion? Of course not. Am I open to the possibility that there is another reason? Of course. But I think it's very highly unlikely.

your point is well made. As a supplement to the cause you are pointing to, would core strength enhance or hurt his getting back in to form?

[KGB]

 

 There was no other event even close to being as significant as the concussion. Does that make it 100% certain that the decrease in production was due to the concussion? Of course not. Am I open to the possibility that there is another reason? Of course. But I think it's very highly unlikely.

 If you don't accept the player saying he doesn't suffer any concussion symptoms and him playing more games than any other season as proof that he not suffering any from concussion, what would make you believe it's not concussion related?

 

Does a 32 year old player have to hit like he's 25 before you accept that he no longer has concussions?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Mauer has been asked about his concussion and training and said he has no concussion issues and doesn't do a lot of off-season training.  Not sure what proof people need to believe it's not concussion related. 

 

Morneau had a 50% reduction in his hard hit ball rate after his concussion, so a 8% reduction sounds more in line with a slow reduction in skills.  I agree the most obvious reason is probably is the right answer, so why not just believe what Mauer says?

Because symptoms aren't always indentifiable?

 

You're also twisting the numbers a bit. You're using Morneau's "50% reduction" differently than Mauer's "8% reduction".

 

Using the same scale for both players - their Hard HIt % being 100% - Mauer's Hard Hit drop from 2013 to 2014 was over 25%.

 

On top of that, Morneau's 2010 Hard Hit % was an extreme outlier. 45.3% of his contact in 2010 was hard hit (an absurdly high number, FTR). Previous to that, his highest number was 39.6%.

 

Normalize those two numbers and whaddyaknow... Morneau and Mauer have similar drops in Hard Hit rate before and after their concussions (Morneau is a few points higher but both players show similar, extreme declines).

 

IIRC, Morneau also claimed to be "symptom free" multiple times in 2012 and 2013. That didn't seem to matter, as he never returned to his 2006-2010 form. Was some of that due to aging? Sure, I bet it was... But players don't normally fall off a cliff during their age 30-31 seasons without good reason.

 

Was Morneau also lazy? Why were we so sympathetic to Morneau, never questioning his work ethic or drive to succeed, but refuse to give Mauer the same benefit of the doubt?

 

Why did Twins fans give Morneau a "pass"? Why did Twins fans give Koskie a "pass"? What about Span?

 

The difference isn't Joe Mauer, it's Twins fans' attitudes.

[gil4]

 

... so yes, Madison Bumgarner and Jonathan Broxton are athletes.

If you tell me Bartolo Colon is an athlete, you might cross a line there. I'm pretty sure he went to the John Kruk "I ain't an athlete, I'm a ballplayer" school.

[blindeke]

I have a concussion from reading this thread.

[sane]

I have a concussion from reading this thread.

Unless it is actually old age and lack of training.......

[spinowner]

 

your point is well made. As a supplement to the cause you are pointing to, would core strength enhance or hurt his getting back in to form?

For an offensive lineman, strength is the most important thing. For a marathon runner it's endurance. For a floor exercise specialist in gymnastics it's flexibility. For a juggler it's hand-to-eye coordination. Hitting a baseball is a unique skill which probably has no analog in any other sport. For that reason it's probably nearly impossible to devise a workout regimen that will be effective for every player. Strength is certainly important but if an increase in strength slows reaction time and/or interferes with flexibility it's a net reduction in performance.

[ken]

 

Because symptoms aren't always indentifiable?

 

You're also twisting the numbers a bit. You're using Morneau's "50% reduction" differently than Mauer's "8% reduction".

 

Using the same scale for both players - their Hard HIt % being 100% - Mauer's Hard Hit drop from 2013 to 2014 was over 25%.

 

On top of that, Morneau's 2010 Hard Hit % was an extreme outlier. 45.3% of his contact in 2010 was hard hit (an absurdly high number, FTR). Previous to that, his highest number was 39.6%.

 

Normalize those two numbers and whaddyaknow... Morneau and Mauer have similar drops in Hard Hit rate before and after their concussions (Morneau is a few points higher but both players show similar, extreme declines).

 

IIRC, Morneau also claimed to be "symptom free" multiple times in 2012 and 2013. That didn't seem to matter, as he never returned to his 2006-2010 form. Was some of that due to aging? Sure, I bet it was... But players don't normally fall off a cliff during their age 30-31 seasons without good reason.

 

Was Morneau also lazy? Why were we so sympathetic to Morneau, never questioning his work ethic or drive to succeed, but refuse to give Mauer the same benefit of the doubt?

 

Why did Twins fans give Morneau a "pass"? Why did Twins fans give Koskie a "pass"? What about Span?

 

The difference isn't Joe Mauer, it's Twins fans' attitudes.

If you think Morneau 2010 hard hit rate is unfair, then use his 2009 rate of 39.6%.  It’s still a drop of 57% to 22.5% in 2011.  Plus Morneau was only able to play 69 games in the year after his concussion, so I think it pretty clear that Morneau concussion was more serious.

Once a player has a concussion, he is more likely to get another concussion and it will take longer to recover.  But there has not been any reoccurrence in the injury.  I think using Mauer hard hit rate as evidence that he still has concussion issue is really a reach for an excuse. The reduction in his hard hit rate could just as easily be explained by the lack of training and age.  And given that Mauer says he has no concussion issues and doesn’t train much in the offseason, would seem to be more reasonable.

Without being a medical expert and knowing details on Mauer’s case, I guess I’m just willing to take him at his word.

[sane]

 

Mauer has been asked about his concussion and training and said he has no concussion issues......... so why not just believe what Mauer says?

Because WHAT he says, is the result of his concussion?

[sane]

 

Moderator note -- if you think that a thread is stupid please don't post in that thread.

How else can he say that he thinks that thread is stupid?