Mauer: Lack of Training and Overflow of Excuses Catching Up to Him

[Squirrel]

 

nytwinsfan said it best

 

 

 

http://a.dilcdn.com/bl/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2013/06/ducktales-money-bin.jpg

So, it's Joe's fault that Molitor bats him 3rd? Huh.

[glunn]

Moderator note -- let's try to focus on the debate and minimize the personal jabs.  

[Lefty74]

If Joe is not able to either get over his concussion issues or develop a better workout regimen to improve performance in 2015 what should Molitor do? Personally very appreciative of what Joe did earlier in his career, but OBP not withstanding it is very difficult to play him at 1B hitting .267 w 9 home runs. Is Plouffe more valuable? Move Sano to 1b? Obviously the contract is huge but let's face it Twins are eating Nolasco's and maybe the answer is to platoon Joe?

[wickedslider]

Okay, there is a lot of misinformation in this post.

 

Morneau played parts of three seasons with the Twins post-concussion. This is Joe's second year post-concussion.

 

As for Morneau being symptom-free, a quick Google search turned up this in June of 2012, less than two years after Justin's concussion:

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/former-al-mvp-justin-morneau-beat-concussions-for-now-but-is-tortured-by-his-failures-against-lefties.html

 

"And whereas a return to normal life – no headaches, no vertigo, no nausea, no mental lapses – represents a normal goal for those who have suffered multiple concussions like Morneau, normalcy is not something to which he aspires."

 

December of 2012:

 

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Justin_Morneau_is_miles_ahead_of_where_he_was_last_offseason122712

 

"Morneau was able to put the concussion issues behind him early on, and his surgically-repaired wrist stopped bothering him sometime in the middle of the season."

 

So... Yeah. Justin gets a pass for a brain injury while Joe's struggles are because he doesn't train hard enough.

]

No, you said FANS gave Morneau a pass, not writers. Your original point was that FANS attitudes have changed. Now you are using articles written by professional writers to buttress your point about FAN REACTION? How do these articles represent FAN REACTION? I fail to see the relevance. And your quote of " filled with a lot of misinformation" wasn't proven at all. You concentrated on basically one point that I made about Morneau. Morneau had stated that he might have to give up baseball because of his symptoms. That was honest and scary to fans. Much more candor in that statement than Bi-lateral weakness excuses. So tell us how the examples you provided prove how FAN'S ATTITUDES have changed which was your ORIGINAL ASSERTION. Not to mention that Morneau actually suffered 2 separate concussions compared to the official stance that Joe suffered one. Morneau got kneed in the head then later in his career got another concussion making a diving play at first base. I don't recall Joe announcing that he has suffered another concussion.

Not to mention having to go to Yahoo sports to find what you were looking for? How is their reporters comments even relevant to what OUR FANS ARE THINKING. And the ESPN article barely mentioned his concussion, it was more about his overall health with his wrist being a major concern.

[Dr. Evil]

I just wanted to say that I think DrNeau makes valid points that are supported by data that is factual and non-biased. He did it in a very non-attacking way. I respect that and I am in agreement with the point he is trying to make. I personally would have struggled in the area of restraint and appropriateness on this topic and certainly would not have been able to refrain from using words such as "cupcake" in reference to the named subject of this post. Thank goodness for writers such as DrNeau who have far more class than me.

[Major League Ready]

My point was the relevancy.

If I was rich, I doubt that I would condition harder, even though it would likely extend my life.

Gotcha.  I am sure you are right. A given percentage of athletes are not going to work hard once they get the big pay day..  I thought the $23M was relevant in the sense that fans have a right to expect someone getting paid that kind of money would work very hard..  To put it in perspective .... a man or woman gets a great education and works very hard to get promoted to six figure job where they work 50-6 hrs/wk..  At $150K/yr it takes the person described above 150+ years to make what Mauer makes in a year (playing a game)..  You can see where the average fan might have a bigger problem with an athlete at 23M vs league minimum.

 

Others not might care about the scenario above but might see it in the context of how that $23M might be used to better the team when the player earning it is basically replacement level..  We could buy a couple very nice upgrades in the bull pen for that kind of money.

[jharaldson]

 

I find it baffling that people will accept Morneau's concussion and his subsequent struggles but refuse to give Joe the same benefit of the doubt, yet their production dropped in very similar ways.

 

Morneau:

 

1 Year After Concussion - .618 OPS

2 Years After Concussion - .773 OPS

 

Mauer:

 

1 Year After Concussion - .732 OPS

2 Years After Concussion - .718 OPS

 

Morneau came back like you would expect from an injury.  Struggling at first but getting better as time went on.  Mauer has not gotten better.  He came back as a reduced player in 2014 and has gotten slightly worse 2 years after.  They do not have comparable returns from concussions in my opinion.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

]
No, you said FANS gave Morneau a pass, not writers. Your original point was that FANS attitudes have changed. Now you are using articles written by professional writers to buttress your point about FAN REACTION? How do these articles represent FAN REACTION? I fail to see the relevance. And your quote of " filled with a lot of misinformation" wasn't proven at all. You concentrated on basically one point that I made about Morneau. Morneau had stated that he might have to give up baseball because of his symptoms. That was honest and scary to fans. Much more candor in that statement than Bi-lateral weakness excuses. So tell us how the examples you provided prove how FAN'S ATTITUDES have changed which was your ORIGINAL ASSERTION. Not to mention that Morneau actually suffered 2 separate concussions compared to the official stance that Joe suffered one. Morneau got kneed in the head then later in his career got another concussion making a diving play at first base. I don't recall Joe announcing that he has suffered another concussion.
Not to mention having to go to Yahoo sports to find what you were looking for? How is their reporters comments even relevant to what OUR FANS ARE THINKING. And the ESPN article barely mentioned his concussion, it was more about his overall health with his wrist being a major concern.

I honestly do not understand half this post.

 

These are my points:

 

1. I never heard a Twins fan call Morneau lazy or unmotivated when he failed to come back from a concussion and be productive, yet I hear it about Mauer all the time. That's what I meant when I mentioned "fan attitudes"... and you seem to be taking that one phrase completely out of context of the 6-7 paragraph post in which it was contained.

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/20211-mauer-lack-of-training-and-overflow-of-excuses-catching-up-to-him/?p=406344

 

2. Morneau failed to be productive long after he reported he no longer had concussion symptoms.

 

That's it. Those are my points.

 

PS. What does Morneau's 2015 concussion have to do with anything? Why'd you even bring it up?

 

PPS. As far as I remember, Joe Mauer never used the phrase "bi-lateral weakness". That was all Bill Smith.

[DrNeau]

 

YOUR ORIGINAL QUOTE: Spinowner: I think the concussion is BY FAR the most likely reason that Mauer's offensive production has dropped off during the last couple years. I very strongly doubt it has anything to do with his training regimen.

 

My response to you: After having missed the final month of the 2013 season, Joe Mauer was cleared by his doctor to resume full baseball activities. I’m not diminishing the effects of concussions by saying you are speculating here, and out of your element.

 

My comment to other poster Headfirst: "One does not be an expert to know that strength, conditioning, and flexibility are all beneficial aspects of training for the game of baseball."

 

Your response to these comments: So you dismiss my comment about concussions because I'm not an expert and then you dismiss Headfirst's criticism of you by saying you don't have to be an expert to comment. That's rich.

Hi Spinowner, 

Can we agree that strength, conditioning, and flexibility are all beneficial aspects of training for athletes? I will add that you will sound ridiculous if you claim that experts or non-experts would answer this question by saying "no". Needing an expert's opinion on whether physical training can benefit an athlete is pointless.

[Craig Arko]

Hi Spinowner, 

Can we agree that strength, conditioning, and flexibility are all beneficial aspects of training for athletes? I will add that you will sound ridiculous if you claim that experts or non-experts would answer this question by saying "no". Needing an expert's opinion on whether physical training can benefit an athlete is pointless.

I think it's using that argument to draw a conclusion of sloth that causes credulity to need to take a few deep knee bends.

[DrNeau]

 

I just wanted to say that I think DrNeau makes valid points that are supported by data that is factual and non-biased. He did it in a very non-attacking way. I respect that and I am in agreement with the point he is trying to make. I personally would have struggled in the area of restraint and appropriateness on this topic and certainly would not have been able to refrain from using words such as "cupcake" in reference to the named subject of this post. Thank goodness for writers such as DrNeau who have far more class than me.

Thanks, Spikecurveball. 

 

Over the years, his direct comments regarding putting off training, or taking things slowly, is what has made me question his work ethic. Again, he has said these things, not me. So, without people thinking that I just want to rip him, that's not the case. I hope he starts ripping the ball again. I will paste Mauer sideburns on, I will paste a Mauer beard on. I will grow a beard. Just show us that you're working, Joe. That's all I want. 

[Dr. Evil]

Thanks, Spikecurveball. 

 

Over the years, his direct comments regarding putting off training, or taking things slowly, is what has made me question his work ethic. Again, he has said these things, not me. So, without people thinking that I just want to rip him, that's not the case. I hope he starts ripping the ball again. I will paste Mauer sideburns on, I will paste a Mauer beard on. I will grow a beard. Just show us that you're working, Joe. That's all I want.

 

Well put.

[formerly33]

 

Thanks, Spikecurveball. 

 

Over the years, his direct comments regarding putting off training, or taking things slowly, is what has made me question his work ethic. Again, he has said these things, not me. So, without people thinking that I just want to rip him, that's not the case. I hope he starts ripping the ball again. I will paste Mauer sideburns on, I will paste a Mauer beard on. I will grow a beard. Just show us that you're working, Joe. That's all I want. 

Let me make this clear by looking at two possible scenarios for 2016.

 

Scenario 1) Joe Mauer has a "lazy" workout routine yet hits .300; you continue to rant because if he so much as lifted weights he'd be smashing balls out of the park at a rate of at least 20% more.

 

Scenario 2) Joe Mauer works out the "right" way, is less productive; you grow a beard to express solidarity and approval.

[ken]

 

Let me make this clear by looking at two possible scenarios for 2016.

 

Scenario 1) Joe Mauer has a "lazy" workout routine yet hits .300; you continue to rant because if he so much as lifted weights he'd be smashing balls out of the park at a rate of at least 20% more.

 

Scenario 2) Joe Mauer works out the "right" way, is less productive; you grow a beard to express solidarity and approval.

More likely scenario:  Mauer continues a slow decline and people continue to make excuses for the decline.

[formerly33]

 

More likely scenario:  Mauer continues a slow decline and people continue to make excuses for the decline.

No, it's you who are hyperbolizing the situation. So you're upset since Joe Mauer isn't living up to your standards for a #3 hitter who makes $23mill a year, yet at the same time you're aware that he doesn't write the lineup card, he didn't offer himself the contract, etc. etc. Talk about excuses made.

 

Did you ever stop to consider that he was worth more than he made before that contract? Yeah, I'm being ridiculous. But my point is that while it's fine to worry about production, let's just leave money out of the picture, okay?

 

I'm sure this has been said, but I'll say it again. Mauer hasn't changed his workout regimen since he won MVP, yet you're sure that this is the reason for his decline. I'm not sure on what grounds you stand.

 

To be completely honest, I couldn't care less if Joe added ballet to his routine.

[Craig Arko]

To be completely honest, I couldn't care less if Joe added ballet to his routine.

An average professional ballet dancer is a far better athlete than an average professional baseball player. Ask Max Kepler.

[formerly33]

 

An average professional ballet dancer is a far better athlete than an average professional baseball player. Ask Max Kepler.

Agreed ... that's pretty much what I was trying to say, but you put it better. I pride myself in being more cultured than most kids my age, and that means being a "fan" of ballet. Whoever says that ballet dancers aren't athletes simply does not know what they're talking about.

 

Speaking of ballet, would it be acceptable for me to compare this complaining about Joe Mauer to those who think that the corps has it easy? Or those that think that the winds should make less money than string players for having to put up with listening to the strings half the time instead of playing with them (and by the way, if they make a mistake they stand out a lot more, so c'mon)?

 

Sorry ... I regress.

[Squirrel]

 

Sorry ... I regress.

Yes, you did. Please stay on topic.

[glunn]

Moderator note -- debate is encouraged.  Bickering is not debate.  Please be civil and not dismissive.

[DrNeau]

Bumping this, as a multitude of excuses in favor of Mauer were cited in this thread, as well as quotes directly from Joe that support a pattern. Relevant again, as fans have been informed by both the Star Tribune and Pioneer Press that Joe is "much stronger than in past seasons". 

 

A noteworthy observation I've seen has been if someone implies a player may not have adequately trained, they are quickly dismissed - as they are unqualified to make such a remark, as (A) they do not spend 24 hours a day with the player, and ( B ) they are not a professional physical trainer. With these arguments, it sets a foundation that is impossible for a fan to comment. 

 

I must mention that Charley Walters is neither a professional physical trainer, nor does he spend 24 hours per day with any player. Jim Souhan at the Star Tribune made a comment the other day about Glen Perkins, saying that he "needs to prove he can condition himself to pitch well for a full season". I must add that he is also neither a professional physical trainer, and also does not spend 24 hours per day with any player. If it is acceptable for a sports writer who is not a live-in pro physical trainer to comment positively about a player's physical condition, a sports writer's negative comments about a player's physical condition must also be accepted. Again, the initial post consists of sports writer's reports, as well as quotes directly from Joe. 

 

The time is coming very soon, and we will see if Joe has truly gained strength. 

 

All this being said, I am rooting for Joe, and hope he hits .330 with 20 bombs. At the same time, I am concerned how many more excuses will be added to this growing list.