Mauer: Lack of Training and Overflow of Excuses Catching Up to Him

[sane]

As a High School and Youth baseball coach for xxxx years, I think you people are forgetting another factor. More players have regressed due to falling in love than concussions, ageing, poor training, bi-lateral leg weakness, and dipping combined.
Joe got married, had a family and had his life priorities "corrected" by a woman.
Has anybody else out there had a similar experience?
Face it! Make a choice! The proliferation of the human race...or the second wild-card spot?
Which is more important?

[ken]

 

Because WHAT he says, is the result of his concussion?

Finally a logical explaination

[Dr. Evil]

For an offensive lineman, strength is the most important thing. For a marathon runner it's endurance. For a floor exercise specialist in gymnastics it's flexibility. For a juggler it's hand-to-eye coordination. Hitting a baseball is a unique skill which probably has no analog in any other sport. For that reason it's probably nearly impossible to devise a workout regimen that will be effective for every player. Strength is certainly important but if an increase in strength slows reaction time and/or interferes with flexibility it's a net reduction in performance.

I understand what you are saying. My feeling is that if he were to balloon up like Mark McGuire, then there would be flexibility concerns. No one can convince me that Joe could not benefit from adding a mere 10 pounds of muscle in the offseason.

[D. Hocking]

 

As a High School and Youth baseball coach for xxxx years, I think you people are forgetting another factor. More players have regressed due to falling in love than concussions, ageing, poor training, bi-lateral leg weakness, and dipping combined.
Joe got married, had a family and had his life priorities "corrected" by a girl.
Has anybody else out there had a similar experience?
Face it! Make a choice! The proliferation of the human race...or the second wild-card spot?
Which is more important?

 

Chances are his descendants are predestined to be lazy and not train properly  -- so in this case, the second wild card spot.

[sane]

Chances are his descendants are predestined to be lazy and not train properly  -- so in this case, the second wild card spot.

Unless "his descendants are predestined" to take after their mother.

[Linus]

Given the complexity of hitting major league pitching, I think it is perfectly reasonable that concussions could have lingering effects even after the typical concussion symptoms are gone and the player feels "normal". 

[glunn]

 

How else can he say that he thinks that thread is stupid?

Under TD policy, if you believe that a thread is stupid and you have nothing on topic to contribute then you should ignore the thread.

[DrNeau]

QUOTE: Jimmer: Couldn't we just create a Mauer bashing thread and combine all the threads created to bash him into it? Then direct people to post their new posts there?  Or maybe even create a separate forum? Place the forum right under the one entitled: 'Other Baseball'?

 

     Hi Jimmer, I do not consider this a “Mauer-bashing thread”, as you put it. I addressed criteria that was quoted directly by Joe Mauer and the media. If you do not feel this discussion or its points are valid or legitimate, I would prefer if you would stay out of it, rather than cry to the moderators – begging for them to modify my post.

_______________________________________________________________________

 

QUOTE: Always33: Wow, everyone's ranting because Joe Mauer doesn't lift weights until he looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Why not start a thread called "Mauer needs to juice up"?

 

     Hi Always33,

 

I love your s/n. Morneau was one of my favorite players of all time. Regarding your comment, the onus is not on me to prove that stretching is all Joe does, and I’ve not claimed that Mauer needs to look like Arnold Swarzenegger.

 

If someone were to Google search “how to enhance bat speed”, they would find countless links to strength-training programs and drills.

Help yourself: https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=how+to+enhance+bat+speed

 

If one should click any of them, they will find some assortment of the following:

 

Legs:
Squats
Leg presses
Lunges
Deadlifts
Leg curls

 

Core:
Planks
Sit ups/crunches
Push ups
Bench press
Medicine ball rotations

 

Forearms:
Squeezing a tennis ball/racquetball
Wrist curls
Farmer’s walk
Finger curls
Reverse wrist curls

 

Joe's bat speed has declined and I have seen no evidence that he does any of the above-mentioned things. I also have the right to question why this is. Additionally, he stated that all of his leg lifting came from catching bullpens. I repeat: ALL of his leg lifting came from catching bullpens. Wow. Just… wow. One does not need to be a professional strength trainer to understand this is a ridiculous quote for a professional athlete to say. But guess who said it? I’ll give you a hint… the initials are ‘J’ and ‘M’.

 

www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/03/07/joe-mauer-moves-to-first-base/6167525/

 

via Imgflip GIF Maker

_______________________________________________________________________

 

QUOTE: Spinowner: I think the concussion is BY FAR the most likely reason that Mauer's offensive production has dropped off during the last couple years. I very strongly doubt it has anything to do with his training regimen.

QUOTE: Craig Arko: Maybe a little experiment will help. Bang your head against a brick wall a few times. Then have someone throw you some 100 mph fastballs.

 

   Hi Spinowner & Craig Arko,
After having missed the final month of the 2013 season, Joe Mauer was cleared by his doctor to resume full baseball activities. I’m not diminishing the effects of concussions by saying you are speculating here, and out of your element.

_______________________________________________________________________

 

QUOTE: DocBauer: Maybe Mauer will rediscover his past self for any number of reasons. But maybe, maybe it's time that we just realize than a star baseball player, facing pitches that dip and dart and dive and slurve and slide between 80-100 MPH, has the very, very, almost obscenely difficult task of locating said round object, dissecting its trajectory and eventual targeted landing area in an X and Y plane, and then deciding if he should swing at all...(projecting and guessing whether it will be a ball or a strike)...and if he does, hoping his hand eye coordination matches his expected velocity and location computation so as to strike the ball successfully in to the field of play in some capacity. And this all takes place in about a second and a half???

 

   Hi DocBauer,
Thanks for the physics lesson (little sarcastic but really I think your quote was well-written). I do not disagree that the game is difficult. Since the game is hard, is poor production, then, acceptable? I would argue it is not.

_______________________________________________________________________

 

QUOTE: Headfirst: I always think that it is funny when posters on TD become experts in the art of strength and conditioning.

 

   Hi Headfirst,
One does not need to be an expert to know that strength, conditioning, and flexibility are all beneficial aspects of training for the game of baseball. As fans, we have the right to inquire whether players are adequately doing their part in this. As a minimum standard, do you agree that each player should give their all in each of these training aspects? Yes or no?

_______________________________________________________________________

 

Brock Beauchamp: But it's incredible to suggest he's lazy when he was one of the best players in baseball for a decade. What, do some of you think Mauer somehow became one of the best catchers in MLB history through dumb luck and talent?

 

   Hi Brock,
Perfect example of how posts get spun out of control. I have posted articles from the media containing sportswriters’ summaries of Mauer’s routines, as well as Joe’s direct quotes, which support the idea of delaying training until very deep into the off-season. I’ve not stated that he became one of the best catchers through dumb luck and talent. I think he is/was one of the most talented players to ever play the game. That being said, his direct quotes added with his lack of production in the past few years have concerned me. I have the right to feel concerned, and I’m not the only one who feels this way. You disagreeing with me is to be expected in a forum, but it is no reason to twist my words.

 

Small recap of the article in question:
• Mauer openly stated he is progressively delaying beginning training later and later each year.
• He stated he begins training for next season at spring training - not prior.
• Also, the writer, Mike Berardino, stated that Mauer typically doesn't do much hitting in the off-season.

I’m curious how you can argue with quotes that he himself spoke.

[Craig Arko]

If you're that concerned, maybe you should ask him (Mauer) directly? We don't have much influence over his training regimen.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Your "probably" doesn't amount to squat. 

 

Also stated in the same article: 

B.) he is progressively delaying beginning training later and later each year
C.) he begins training for next season at spring training - not prior

Also, the writer, Mike Berardino, stated that Mauer typically doesn't do much hitting in the offseason. 

 

Again, these are things that are coming from either Mauer himself or reputable members of the press. 

Thanks for your reply, though!

 

Allow me to retort:

 

(1) If the delay in training over the winter was effecting his preparation, you would expect him to be struggling in April.  This is not the case:

 

2015: .804 OPS

2014: .725 OPS

 

He's not having disastrous starts to the year so that's not it.  He just is having period where he struggles (May in 2015, May and June of 2014 - with the caveat that months are a super arbitrary way of delineating time.)

 

(2) Saying he should be over his concussion is foolish. We know so very little about head injuries. It took Morneau three years to get back to being 3/4 of the player he was before. To say that concussions are nothing because Mauer said "I feel good" to a reporter is insane. It would be the equivalent of getting upset that the Lions didn't win the Super Bowl when Matthew Stafford said they would in a preseason interview. Mauer could have no effects from concussions or he could still be dealing with it. We don't know and he doesn't know - suggesting that the potential for concussion issues is some sort of hogwash is pretty indefensible.

 

(3) Blaming Mauer for excuses by the press is ridiculous. The press just want to hit a deadline and have a topic that gets people interested. "we don't know" while accurate, is unlikely to satisfy readers.  So they come up with something definite. You're building a case on puff pieces.

It's equally disingenuous to say that Mauer is making those excuses. Joe has never been amazing with the media ("pour it on twins fans, pour it on.") and so if they ask him a question, him saying "oh yeah, it's been tough with shifts" does not mean he's blaming shifts.

-----

I love me some Mauer and have been distressed by his last two years. But I'm not ready to give up on him because he's not that far removed from being his old self. To me, next year becomes a year where if Mauer isn't the same, he's maybe not coming back but until then, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Hi Brock,

Perfect example of how posts get spun out of control. I have posted articles from the media containing sportswriters’ summaries of Mauer’s routines, as well as Joe’s direct quotes, which support the idea of delaying training until very deep into the off-season. I’ve not stated that he became one of the best catchers through dumb luck and talent. I think he is/was one of the most talented players to ever play the game. That being said, his direct quotes added with his lack of production in the past few years have concerned me. I have the right to feel concerned, and I’m not the only one who feels this way. You disagreeing with me is to be expected in a forum, but it is no reason to twist my words.

I didn't twist your words. You're not the only person commenting in this thread, in case you hadn't noticed.

[spinowner]

 

 

 

QUOTE: Spinowner: I think the concussion is BY FAR the most likely reason that Mauer's offensive production has dropped off during the last couple years. I very strongly doubt it has anything to do with his training regimen.

QUOTE: Craig Arko: Maybe a little experiment will help. Bang your head against a brick wall a few times. Then have someone throw you some 100 mph fastballs.

 

   Hi Spinowner & Craig Arko,
After having missed the final month of the 2013 season, Joe Mauer was cleared by his doctor to resume full baseball activities. I’m not diminishing the effects of concussions by saying you are speculating here, and out of your element.

 

QUOTE: Headfirst: I always think that it is funny when posters on TD become experts in the art of strength and conditioning.

 

   Hi Headfirst,
One does not need to be an expert to know that strength, conditioning, and flexibility are all beneficial aspects of training for the game of baseball. As fans, we have the right to inquire whether players are adequately doing their part in this. As a minimum standard, do you agree that each player should give their all in each of these training aspects? Yes or no?

 

So you dismiss my comment about concussions because I'm not an expert and then you dismiss Headfirst's criticism of you by saying you don't have to be an expert to comment. That's rich.

[wickedslider]

Except in the article Mauer said he has been symptom-free since October 2013, so why couldn't he work out?

 

"Mauer, who has been symptom-free since late October, typically doesn't do much hitting in the offseason in order to conserve energy for the long grind ahead."

 

Sorry - see that was already brought up

I write this as a long term Joe Mauer fan who is becoming very disappointed in him. People who participate in sports which require stamina don't sit around in the off season conserving energy. It isn't like they have batteries to store energy. So why would a baseball player think he needs to "conserve" his energy in the offseason. I can see a pitcher resting his arm. Joe's not a pitcher. Other athletes work out so that they have more energy and strength down the stretch. Look to successful football/hockey/basketball players' offseason workouts. If you want to have success in pro sports, you workout in the offseason. Even golfers are paying more attention to working out. Then look at J.O. Berrios who has become a workout machine. It sure helped propel his career this season. I read once that Hrbek regretted not working out more so that he could have played longer. He retired in his early 30's, when many of today's players are signing their 3rd contract.

I'd like to see Joe try to go through the same West Coast workout that a couple of the Timberwolves and many other athletes went through last offseason. Shabazz Muhammad sure was having a better season until he was injured last year.

Frankly, I wonder if Joe is just content being a dad/family guy. Look at his stats before and after marriage/kids. His life is set, local writers and fans are willing to make excuses for his drop off. Many athletes in other sports get concussions and are able to come back in a reasonable time frame and perform well. If a pro QB can get back playing 2 weeks after a concussion and excel, there is no reason for anyone to think Joe is incapable of doing so 2 years after his. QB's have to make quick decisions and have fast reflexes while taking in way more info than a batter.

Also, his BA with RISP suggests that he is still capable, but only concentrates/gives it his all when he thinks it really matters. I wonder if he hates losing as much as many championship players do.

I don't care that he isn't a demonstrative leader. There are other guys who can do that. I'd just like to think that for $23 million a year that Joe is doing every thing he can do be successful, just as the rest of us would. Reason being, I pay a lot of money to be entertained by sports and I'd like to experience the thrill of my team winning it all. I wouldn't enjoy a concert if the guitar player was missing notes or the singer was forgetting the lyrics. Being a pro athlete in today's games is a year around proposition for successful players, especially as they age. Teams wouldn't win very often if all their players are waiting till training camp/spring training to get in shape.

And no I don't expect him to be muscle bound like a weight lifter. I realize that baseball players generally aren't going to be built that way.

[SwainZag]

 

I write this as a long term Joe Mauer fan who has become very disappointed in him. People who participate in sports which require stamina don't sit around in the off season conserving energy. They work out so that they have more energy and strength down the stretch. Look to successful football/hockey/basketball players' offseason workouts. If you want to have success in pro sports, you workout in the offseason. Even golfers are paying more attention to working out. Look at J.O. Berrios who has become a workout machine. It sure helped propel his career this season. I read once that Hrbek regretted not working out more so that he could have played longer. He retired in his early 30's, when many of today's players are signing their 3rd contract.
I'd like to see Joe go through the same West Coast workout that a couple of the Timberwolves went through last offseason. Shabazz Muhammad sure was having a better season until he was injured last year.
Frankly, I think Joe is content being a dad/family guy. Look at his stats before and after marriage/kids. His life is set, local writers and fans are willing to make excuses for his drop off. Many athletes in other sports get concussions and are able to come back in a reasonable time frame and perform well. If a pro QB can get back playing in 2 weeks and excel, there is no reason for anyone to think Joe is incapable of doing so as well. QB's have to make quick decisions and have fast reflexes while taking in way more info than a batter.
Also, his BA with RISP suggests that he is still capable, but only concentrates/gives it his all when he thinks it really matters. I don't think he hates losing as much as many championship players do.
I don't care that he isn't a demonstrative leader. There are other guys who can do that. I'd just like to think that for $23 million a year that Joe is doing every thing he can do be successful, just as the rest of us would.

 

No offense but both hard working off season players you compared im to were Berrios and Shabazz who are 22 and 21 years old and still growing into those bodies.  I'm not saying Joe shouldn't work out, I just think using those two don't really mean much.

[wickedslider]

Because symptoms aren't always indentifiable?

 

You're also twisting the numbers a bit. You're using Morneau's "50% reduction" differently than Mauer's "8% reduction".

 

Using the same scale for both players - their Hard HIt % being 100% - Mauer's Hard Hit drop from 2013 to 2014 was over 25%.

 

On top of that, Morneau's 2010 Hard Hit % was an extreme outlier. 45.3% of his contact in 2010 was hard hit (an absurdly high number, FTR). Previous to that, his highest number was 39.6%.

 

Normalize those two numbers and whaddyaknow... Morneau and Mauer have similar drops in Hard Hit rate before and after their concussions (Morneau is a few points higher but both players show similar, extreme declines).

 

IIRC, Morneau also claimed to be "symptom free" multiple times in 2012 and 2013. That didn't seem to matter, as he never returned to his 2006-2010 form. Was some of that due to aging? Sure, I bet it was... But players don't normally fall off a cliff during their age 30-31 seasons without good reason.

 

Was Morneau also lazy? Why were we so sympathetic to Morneau, never questioning his work ethic or drive to succeed, but refuse to give Mauer the same benefit of the doubt?

 

Why did Twins fans give Morneau a "pass"? Why did Twins fans give Koskie a "pass"? What about Span?

 

The difference isn't Joe Mauer, it's Twins fans' attitudes.

Koskie, and Morneau didn't claim that they were symptom free after their injuries. Joe has multiple times. They were able to recognize continuing symptom. Are we to believe that Joe hasn't had the same care and information at his disposal? Why aren't we supposed to believe him? And remember, neither Koskie nor Morneau were here very long after their injuries the way Joe has, so less chance of hearing/reading negative comments for them and more for Joe.

I don't recall nearly the amount of baseball discussion on social media or blogs like TD back when Koskie was playing so there was less of a chance to come across negative comments about him. Back then the Strib was the main outlet for baseball talk and their censors were militaristic in deleting comments they deemed even slightly offensive. Out of the clear blue, they suspended my account because they claimed my user name was offensive, no BS. Mind you I had used this name for 5-6 years and thousands upon thousands of posts with no problems. So it isn't a stretch that they would have deleted negative comments about a local personality who they covered in their paper.

Another thing to remember, Koskie wasn't anywhere near the status of Joe Mauer as far as accomplishments and expectations. Yes he was an All Star once or twice, but Joe's obviously has had a far better career. With that comes expectations of continued excellence. With those higher expectations comes a greater degree of disappointment if you don't live up. That is natural and to be expected.

I question if it is as simple as saying "fans gave Koskie and Morneau a pass". There wasn't same claims of health being made by them, and they weren't really here long enough for such talk to grow into a groundswell like it has with Mauer. Add the lack of a social media/blog driven outlet for the criticism, at least in Koskie's case. Together it opens up the possibility that there just wasn't a long enough time to get upset.

[wickedslider]

No offense but both hard working off season players you compared im to were Berrios and Shabazz who are 22 and 21 years old and still growing into those bodies.  I'm not saying Joe shouldn't work out, I just think using those two don't really mean much.

Non taken. I also mentioned golfers, I just don't know many by name. I just happened to use those 2 younger athletes because they immediately came to mind and I didn't feel it necessary to waste time googling thousands of examples of older athletes who extended their career excellence by working out religiously. Adrian Peterson comes to mind now that I think of it.

[Craig Arko]

This was over in the Vikings forum but makes for interesting reading on this side, too.

 

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/06ba979bfd1647e5a4e92d09baa6e96a/brain-or-game-former-player-utecht-asks

[Major League Ready]

 

No offense but both hard working off season players you compared im to were Berrios and Shabazz who are 22 and 21 years old and still growing into those bodies.  I'm not saying Joe shouldn't work out, I just think using those two don't really mean much.

I would think it would be more important to work out as you age.  Look at Yodier Molina.  He looks completely different.  How about Jerry Rice.  He outworked his competition and it is hard to question the results. 

 

I have no idea if Joe's regression is related to concussions but it is reasonable to expect an athlete with his frame and getting paid $23M/yr to be in great shape.  That might be a bad photo but regardless of the photo, his work ethic has been questionable, especially for a guy that flies out to the warning track a lot and also hits quite a few off the fence.  Maybe a good workout routines adds a few HRs/yr

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Koskie, and Morneau didn't claim that they were symptom free after their injuries. Joe has multiple times. They were able to recognize continuing symptom. Are we to believe that Joe hasn't had the same care and information at his disposal? Why aren't we supposed to believe him? And remember, neither Koskie nor Morneau were here very long after their injuries the way Joe has, so less chance of hearing/reading negative comments for them and more for Joe.

I don't recall nearly the amount of baseball discussion on social media or blogs like TD back when Koskie was playing so there was less of a chance to come across negative comments about him. Back then the Strib was the main outlet for baseball talk and their censors were militaristic in deleting comments they deemed even slightly offensive. Out of the clear blue, they suspended my account because they claimed my user name was offensive, no BS. Mind you I had used this name for 5-6 years and thousands upon thousands of posts with no problems. So it isn't a stretch that they would have deleted negative comments about a local personality who they covered in their paper.

Another thing to remember, Koskie wasn't anywhere near the status of Joe Mauer as far as accomplishments and expectations. Yes he was an All Star once or twice, but Joe's obviously has had a far better career. With that comes expectations of continued excellence. With those higher expectations comes a greater degree of disappointment if you don't live up. That is natural and to be expected.

I question if it is as simple as saying "fans gave Koskie and Morneau a pass". There wasn't same claims of health being made by them, and they weren't really here long enough for such talk to grow into a groundswell like it has with Mauer. Add the lack of a social media/blog driven outlet for the criticism, at least in Koskie's case. Together it opens up the possibility that there just wasn't a long enough time to get upset.

Okay, there is a lot of misinformation in this post.

 

Morneau played parts of three seasons with the Twins post-concussion. This is Joe's second year post-concussion.

 

As for Morneau being symptom-free, a quick Google search turned up this in June of 2012, less than two years after Justin's concussion:

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/former-al-mvp-justin-morneau-beat-concussions-for-now-but-is-tortured-by-his-failures-against-lefties.html

 

"And whereas a return to normal life – no headaches, no vertigo, no nausea, no mental lapses – represents a normal goal for those who have suffered multiple concussions like Morneau, normalcy is not something to which he aspires."

 

December of 2012:

 

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Justin_Morneau_is_miles_ahead_of_where_he_was_last_offseason122712

 

"Morneau was able to put the concussion issues behind him early on, and his surgically-repaired wrist stopped bothering him sometime in the middle of the season."

 

So... Yeah. Justin gets a pass for a brain injury while Joe's struggles are because he doesn't train hard enough.

 

[sane]

"it is not unreasonable to expect an athlete...getting paid $23M/yr to be in great shape"

Not sure how much help the $23M/yr is for conditioning.

[Major League Ready]

 

Not sure how much help the $23M/yr is for conditioning.

I am not sure what you mean.  Are you suggesting that the fact that he has the big contract has taken away his motivation or how much he is paid is not relevant? 

[ken]

 

Okay, there is a lot of misinformation in this post.

 

Morneau played parts of three seasons with the Twins post-concussion. This is Joe's second year post-concussion.

 

As for Morneau being symptom-free, a quick Google search turned up this in June of 2012, less than two years after Justin's concussion:

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/former-al-mvp-justin-morneau-beat-concussions-for-now-but-is-tortured-by-his-failures-against-lefties.html

 

"And whereas a return to normal life – no headaches, no vertigo, no nausea, no mental lapses – represents a normal goal for those who have suffered multiple concussions like Morneau, normalcy is not something to which he aspires."

 

December of 2012:

 

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Justin_Morneau_is_miles_ahead_of_where_he_was_last_offseason122712

 

"Morneau was able to put the concussion issues behind him early on, and his surgically-repaired wrist stopped bothering him sometime in the middle of the season."

 

So... Yeah. Justin gets a pass for a brain injury while Joe's struggles are because he doesn't train hard enough.

So it was 2 years after Morneau was concussion free and Mauer was a few months?  You just can't compare one concussion to another.  Some players come back after the 7 day DL stint, why don't we compare Mauer to them?

 

I think it's clear that Morneau concussion was more serious.  He was only able to play 68 game the following year, while Mauer had no concussion issues the following year and other than his ab injury he played the whole year. 

 

You can see reasons for a decline in Mauers prior to the concussion, his strike rate was increasing since 2010 and it wasn't because the increase in power.  In 2013 he had a career high in BABIP which helped keep his average up, if it was around his career average he would have hit below .300

 

We don't know if Mauer has any concussion issues, so why do we continue to say that's the reason for the decline?  Maybe it is something else and if it's just getting old fast or lack of conditioning, no reason not to discuss it without people getting defensive.

[sane]

I am not sure what you mean.  Are you suggesting that the fact that he has the big contract has taken away his motivation or how much he is paid is not relevant?

My point was the relevancy.

If I was rich, I doubt that I would condition harder, even though it would likely extend my life.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

So it was 2 years after Morneau was concussion free and Mauer was a few months?  You just can't compare one concussion to another.  Some players come back after the 7 day DL stint, why don't we compare Mauer to them?

 

I think it's clear that Morneau concussion was more serious.  He was only able to play 68 game the following year, while Mauer had no concussion issues the following year and other than his ab injury he played the whole year.

No, you can't compare one concussion to another but the point is Morneau never returned to being the player he was before the concussion, even after the symptoms were long gone.

 

I find it baffling that people will accept Morneau's concussion and his subsequent struggles but refuse to give Joe the same benefit of the doubt, yet their production dropped in very similar ways. Both players stopped hitting the ball hard the moment they suffered a concussion. Hard hit doesn't factor in shifts or any of the defense measures taken against a hitter. It's how well the player squares up on a pitch thrown to him. Both Joe and Justin stopped squaring up on pitches after getting a knock to the head.

 

Just because one concussion looked worse and knocked out one player for longer than the other doesn't mean the same permanent effects don't exist. These are brain injuries and we're barely scratching the surface of what they do to players over the course of their lives.

 

We have no idea if that was Joe's first concussion or his eighth. We have no idea if that was Justin's first concussion or his eighth. They both played positions and sports where concussions are prevalent and writing off Joe's struggles because he says "I feel fine" is ignoring the elephant in the room because Justin said the same things multiple times, yet he never returned to his pre-concussion ability.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

No, you can't compare one concussion to another but the point is Morneau never returned to being the player he was before the concussion, even after the symptoms were long gone.

 

I find it baffling that people will accept Morneau's concussion and his subsequent struggles but refuse to give Joe the same benefit of the doubt, yet their production dropped in very similar ways. Both players stopped hitting the ball hard the moment they suffered a concussion. Hard hit doesn't factor in shifts or any of the defense measures taken against a hitter. It's how well the player squares up on a pitch thrown to him. Both Joe and Justin stopped squaring up on pitches after getting a knock to the head.

 

Just because one concussion looked worse and knocked out one player for longer than the other doesn't mean the same permanent effects don't exist. These are brain injuries and we're barely scratching the surface of what they do to players over the course of their lives.

 

We have no idea if that was Joe's first concussion or his eighth. We have no idea if that was Justin's first concussion or his eighth. They both played positions and sports where concussions are prevalent and writing off Joe's struggles because he says "I feel fine" is ignoring the elephant in the room because Justin said the same things multiple times, yet he never returned to his pre-concussion ability.

Joe still bats third. The Twins still expect big production from him. 

 

There are lots of unknowns around this issue, but if Joe is batting leadoff where his OBP belongs, or down at 6 or 7 where his OPS belongs, I don't think this thread exists. 

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Joe still bats third. The Twins still expect big production from him. 

 

There are lots of unknowns around this issue, but if Joe is batting leadoff where his OBP belongs, or down at 6 or 7 where his OPS belongs, I don't think this thread exists. 

Even during his best seasons - 2009 excluded - I always believed Joe was best suited to the second spot in the lineup.

 

But fans have always been rough on Joe; probably because he's more of a new-age player who succeeds by not making outs, I suppose. The criticism has intensified in the wake him becoming an average to below average player but there were always a significant group of Twins fans who rode Mauer for no good reason.

[Squirrel]

 

Joe still bats third. The Twins still expect big production from him. 

 

There are lots of unknowns around this issue, but if Joe is batting leadoff where his OBP belongs, or down at 6 or 7 where his OPS belongs, I don't think this thread exists. 

I don't disagree with this, but that's Joe's fault because ... ?

[laloesch]

Joe is not suffering any post concussion issues.  If he were he'd have missed a significant amount of time this season like Justin has recently.  Those issues include but are not limited to amnesia, vertigo, nausea, etc. I'm 100% POSITIVE he would not be playing right now.  It's ridiculous that people continue to equate his recent struggles at the plate to his concussion from over three years ago (he's been symptom free for over two years now).

 

 

As someone who suffered severe head trauma in an accident as a kid and lost a whole day (post concussion amnesia), I've had vertigo issues off and on ever since.  That didn't stop me from playing 3 sports in highschool (Football, Soccer and Tennis).  Most of the time its triggered by repetitive high velocity movement, jolts or excessive head movement.  I can tell you with much certainty that his struggles in the batter box are not due to his concussion, more like laziness in the offseason.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Joe is not suffering any post concussion issues.  If he were he'd have missed a significant amount of time this season like Justin has recently. 

You're completely correct in that Joe would have missed a significant amount of time this season had he received another concussion.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

I don't disagree with this, but that's Joe's fault because ... ?

 

nytwinsfan said it best

 

 

 

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